.·:*:·..·*LOST*·..·:*:·. #12: "Dead is Dead"

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by 4everkid, Apr 8, 2009.

  1. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    "Dead is Dead"
    62 minutes long

    This title goes against everything we thought we knew about this island, where dead people don't seem dead at all. Can't wait to see what this means.
  2. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    Wow, that was a great episode! Lots of stuff packed into one sitting. I am filled with questions, but in a good way. There is a lot to process with this one, and I need to watch again, closer.

    It was cool seeing Ben meet Smokey. I was especially thrilled to see Anubis on the cave carving above the Cerberus vent. (I can't believe it was an actual "vent"!) Anubis and Smokey. Now, who is Smokey? Is he one of the Egyptian deities with a snake form, or someone else?

    I am a little confused over the whole baby Alex and who wants her dead thing. It seems to me like the island permits the babies born and conceived OFF island to survive. Its the Island conceived ones and their mothers who die.
    But then Ben was spared by Smokey. Does that mean it wanted Alex dead all along, and he did the right thing, for the good of the island in letting her die? If so, I don't understand how that could be good.

    Interesting to see that Ben was sent to kill Danielle, but he spared her when he saw that she had a child. Or perhaps that she LOVED the child... something Ben never had - the love of a parent. Then years later, he did the same thing in sparing Penny when he saw that she had a child. So maybe he is not quite all bad.

    I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Desmond come flying from behind to the rescue. So relieved he is not dead!

    It was kind of confirmed that the whispers are related to the Others. But we still don't know what they are exactly. At least it ruled out that they are the voices of time travelers.

    Who else got a little thrill when Ben shot Ceaser? Am I a horrible person? I didn't like the guy at all, being all "in charge", or his little friend Illana either. It kind of looks like they were sent by Widmore equipped with weapons, ready for war. Ben did phone Widmore and tell him he was leaving for the island that day. Widmore just moved quickly and got his people on the plane too.

    So Charles was banished for leaving the island too frequently and having a child with an outsider. And he has tried to return, but it wont let him. Confused again! Why would that be so bad? Outsiders?? All the Losties are outsiders. And what will happen to Penny if she comes to the island?

    Charles claimed that Ben tricked him into being banished. So maybe this outsider rule was made up by Ben to get CW to leave. But then, the island wont let him return. But didn't Ben have a life off island too? He had his drawer full of fake ID's for his travels. We've seen Richard & Ethan off the island. And Tom had a boyfriend Arturo, in his New York penthouse. Was all that cool with the island? As long as no one has any outsider babies? I just don't get it, yet. All these people from 815 are outsiders, and were once babies.

    Loved Lockes new attitude. Now HE'S the one in charge and Ben is doing his bidding. Love it! Locke had that Christian thing going on. He seemed all-knowing, and in a leadership/guide type role, but physically passive - not whipping out any guns or anything. Hard to put into words.

    I wonder if Ben will really follow SmokeAlex's rule to do whatever Locke tells him to. I would think that since Smokey took Alex's form to make that demand, it would carry more weight with his guilt-ridden soul.

    So much to think about this week. Finally, a really good episode again!

    [This Message was Edited on 04/08/2009]
  3. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Oh YEAH! I loved this episode!

    I think the message of this episode is that Ben is not all bad. He has done some really rotten things. But I think in his heart he's not quite as bad a person as Charles Widmore is.

    On the other hand, Ben lies like a rug! It drives me crazy! I can't even keep up with all the lies he tells. Why in the world would he want to set the newest batch of survivors against Locke???

    Why does Ben feel the need to foment conflict wherever he goes??? So he can be in control of people??

    It would have been totally unnecessary for Ben to shoot Ceasar if Ben hadn't created that false sense of conflict.

    And why did Ben lie to Sun about "dead is dead"?? We know for sure that that is one statement that is not true on that island!

    And ARGH! To find out via undead Alex that Ben was of course planning on killing Locke again! How weasely can Ben get???

    I think that Locke has an advantage over Ben and over Charles W. in that Locke is basically a better person than either of them. Although he's obviously not perfect.

    I laughed so hard about Charles Widmore's long scruffy 1970s hair!!! He looked SO bad! hee hee


  4. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    I'm glad you brought up Bens behavior with the 314ers. I am completely baffled why he would turn them against Locke. And the lies! I think he lied more than ever on this episode. Does he actually believe that there is still a chance of him defeating Locke and being leader again? Surely not, now that he has met Smokey, and SmokeAlex.

    I guess dead really IS dead as far as he's concerned. His mom and Alex are really dead. But I was thinking the same thing. Dead is NOT dead here! He surely knows that, and why would he lie about that too?

    I agree with you that Locke has the advantage of being a good person, unlike Ben & Charles. Ben may have started out good, but the power got to him quickly.

    I actually thought pony riding Widmore was kind of hot, in a scraggly, rugged, hostile kind of way. It never dawned on me that was CW until his name was mentioned.

    I cracked up inside at the sight of teen Ben. Same actor, more hair and a pretty good make up job. He actually did look pretty young. But it was still amusing.

    I read a good theory on the baby problem. Someone named gupwalla posted the following:
    ""I do think that Ben keeping Alex, contrary to the island's wishes (at least according to Charles), was the start of the baby curse. Ben gained a child by defying the island's orders, so all pregnant women will be cursed with Emily Linus's fate and all children will die in birth, until Ben's sin is undone. (I think this might have happened with Alex's death on the island.)""

    We also learned last night that Ethan crossed over to the Other side at a very young age. He would have been 11 when they kidnapped Alex. Whatever prompted him to join the Others? I assume Ben needed a young buddy to go off with when he went to visit the Others, so he wouldn't look suspicious. But there is probably a lot more to it than that.

    I was convinced at the end of last season that Widmore, being a former leader, had also turned the donkey wheel. Then when he mentioned being exiled, everyone assumed the same. You can NEVER assume anything with this show. The writers must consider what the fans will assume, then do something entirely different. I couldn't believe it when they showed him being escorted to the sub.

    I am still confused about Widmore claiming Ben tricked him into leaving, when the reason given for his exile was having a child with an outsider.

    Im with you Kina! I need a second viewing on this one.
  5. Ninilchicken

    Ninilchicken New Member

    Well before Ben met with Smokey, maybe he did hope that he could get back into the leadership position. Do you think he'll do what his daughter said, he is so hard to figure out. He loves playing games with people's heads. Maybe he told Widmore the Island wouldn't mind if he had a family 'off island'. I thought Widmore said Ben was supposed to kill the French woman and was surprised that there was a baby. So are the whispers, the Others, seems like that's what he meant, or at least a warning system that the Others are coming. Maybe they're the people the Others have already killed.
  6. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    I got the feeling that Ben intended to meet Smokey, but with John lurking around, he was having second thoughts. I also felt like Locke was onto him and figured he was lying, and that's why he prodded Ben into following through with his plan to be judged.

    I dont think Widmore knew there was a baby when he sent Ben to kill Danielle, but once he did, he wanted Ben to kill "it" too.

    I was also wondering if the whispers could be the Dharma spirits warning the Losties that the Others are nearby. The Others are all sneaky and silent when they pass through the jungle. THEY wouldn't be whispering loud enough for people to hear them in advance. And we have that whole mass grave of unburied corpses. I think that unless the bodies are properly buried, they are still on the island in spirit form. Plus, when the whispers happen, in a lot of cases, they appeared to come from all around. It makes more sense for the whispers to be previous victims of the Others, than the Others themselves.

  7. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Oooo, interesting theories about the whispers, you guys.

    My best guess is that when Ben told Widmore he had to leave because of his off-island activities, Ben was lying. Probably Widmore didn't really need to leave because of those things.

    I hope Ben will follow Alex's orders! I bet it's going to be hard for him. But then Ben knows one shouldn't mess with the powers that be on the island.

    I had a weird idea. Do you suppose that the temple is full of Jacob, Christian, Alex, Danielle, Karl, and other dead people wandering around? I just have to wonder if the temple has something to do with dead people.

    I would not quite call Locke a good person. He killed Naomi without a second thought to protect the island. He was pretty creepy back then. But he has a lot of good qualities.

    LOL that you think 70s Widmore was hot, 4everkid! I suppose you think Sawyer is hot, too. :)


    [This Message was Edited on 04/09/2009]
  8. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    OMG YES, Sawyer is way hot! He is at the top of the Lost hotness scale for me. Hippie Widmore is kind of hot. But I must admit, I go completely blind when I hear a British accent.

    I agree that Ben lied to Widmore about his reason for being exiled. But why wouldn't the island let him return if it was a lie?

    I am dying to see the Temple. I could have reached through the screen and choked Locke when he said they were going UNDER it. But it turned out good.

    After all these Egyptian references, it would be cool if when we finally get to see the temple, it turns out to be a big pyramid with a sphinx standing guard. Whatever it does turn out to be, I expect it will be pretty amazing.

    Big question... What lies in the shadow of the statue?

    Answer: Ben. He lies everywhere he goes.

    Seriously though, what are everyones thoughts on that?
  9. Ninilchicken

    Ninilchicken New Member

    So the island must have been in the Mediterrean long enough for the Egyptians to understand it's powers and build a big statue and the buildings we saw in this episode. Wonder how far off shore it couldn't have been? Ancient sailing routes and boats is not my strong point. Like when was the Atlantis story from, was it pre Egyptian? Then it moves, somewhere into the Atlantic so a slave ship can run aground on it, post dynamite discovery. You'd think the Others would have picked up on some of these civilizations ideas to at least not be living in yurts when the Darhma Iniative finally arrives, they looked pretty subsistance. Maybe that's part of the agreement with the Others and the Island's powers, you can't advance beyond cooking your meals in a fire pit and living in huts, no digging into what the island can do, in exchange, you will never grow old. Course who wants to live forever like that? Can you imagine the party they had when they got to move into Darhma town. SCORE, Toilet paper! OK, I don't enjoy camping and it took us 3 years to get plumbing in the house.

    Because Smokie didn't kill Ben it must not mind his lies, or at least understands that he's doing it to protect the island.
  10. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    I was tip-toeing around on one of my Lost websites trying to find interesting news without running into spoilers. I found something that really excited me. I know you will all feel the same. FINALLY, we are going to get a Richard-centric episode!!!!! About time we learn something about this guy! The next one is Miles-centric. The following week they are airing a Lost special. The week after that is Daniel... then Richard. Then on May 13, the 2-part finale. Actually, I am looking forward to the back stories of Miles & Daniel too.

    Now, about that shadow of the statue.... First of all, that statue would have cast a long, long shadow. The writers say the statue was 30 stories high. What lies in its shadow? My first thought was Jughead. Or it could be the well that leads to the donkey wheel, or something we dont even know about yet. But how would Illana know about any of this, the statue is long gone, and shes new here.

    Some people think her question was a code phrase, which makes a lot of sense given her aggressive behavior. Remember how Desmond greeted Locke with "What did one snowman say to the other snowman?" when he entered the swan hatch? Kelvin asked Desmond the same question when he found him. If Locke had known the answer, Desmond would have known he was his official replacement.

    So maybe Illana (and possibly Caesar) were sent by Widmore to start a war. Her mission was to find the crate full of weapons, and identify who is in on the mission by asking the code phrase. Perhaps the team was assembled on short notice, and don't know the identities of each other. She asked Frank the question, and when he couldn't answer, she knocks him out, has him tied up and says , "its time."

    Could Ben know about this somehow? Could that be why he is trying to turn the 316 group against John, so THEY can eliminate him?

    Of course there is always something to confuse the point. Why did Widmore tell John that a war was coming, and he needed John on the island to insure that the right side would win. Walts dream about Locke surrounded by people who want to kill him implies that he and Illana are on opposing teams. Does Widmore consider John weak? Maybe he wants Johns side to lose. He did say "the right side", not "your side."

    But Widmore has not met the new stronger, wiser, omniscient John Locke! Locke has the island on his team, and Widmore, who can't even get back there, obviously doesn't.
  11. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    I saw a post a while back about shipping routes, and the person showed how this island would be in route for the Egyptians to pass by. Don't remember any details though. I agree with your idea of how the Black Rock came to be in the middle of the island. It made no sense till we learned the island could move.

    Your point about the Hostiles moving into Dharmaville made me realize something. Have we ever seen Richard actually living in the barracks? We have seen him walking around there, but is there a "Richards house?" John has mentioned a few times how the island wouldn't want them living in houses. You make a good point about how living in suburbia might be against the islands rules. A lot of hostiles have died. The island must not be protecting them.

    I almost wonder if Ben would have preferred death over having to follow John Locke.