.·*LOST*·. #7: "The Life and Death of J. B."

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by 4everkid, Feb 25, 2009.

  1. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member


    "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham"

    Locke's fateful mission off the island as Jeremy Bentham is revealed.

    I am really looking forward to this one! Locke's episodes are always really good. From the previews, it looks like we will get some big pieces of the puzzle tonight.
    [This Message was Edited on 02/25/2009]
  2. PainPainGoAway

    PainPainGoAway New Member

    I'm attempting to catch the reruns, as it was too much for my brain to follow, but I plan on watching tonight's episode, as he's one of my favorites.

    In all your searches, has anyone come up with "Lost" Cliff Notes or a "Lost" magic pill (you swallow and get caught up....just a thought)?

    These threads make it sound like I'm missing out being sooo far behind!

  3. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    I meant to mention this - Tonights episode runs SIX minutes over! That's a lot of extra time! So set your vcr's or tivo's accordingly.

    Are you watching reruns for the first or second time? If you are seeing them for the first time and you watch tonights episode, - wow... do you really want to spoil yourself? And I wonder if it will make any sense if you aren't caught up. Maybe you are just watching them a second time- a refresher course.

    Lost cliff notes - I know this will sound like a broken record... But Lostpedia.com has a very, very detailed synopsis of every episode, plus the transcripts, and everything that has anything to do with Lost. But nothing is quite like actually watching.

    You're not missing out by being behind. You would be missing out tremendously if you skipped anything though. How far along are you?
  4. Ninilchicken

    Ninilchicken New Member

    They could make it 2 hours long and it wouldn't be enough. We don't get ABC where we live and have had to wait for the past 4 years until the DVD's came out in Dec. Now that we have DSL, I love the ABC episode player. Have really enjoyed reading all your comments and theories.
  5. jemini

    jemini New Member

    THANK YOU SOOOOOO MUCH for posting that they are running the show long! I try to stay away from the posts from the night that it is going to be on in case there are any spoilers but I couldn't help myself today. (I'm on the west coast so I'm always behind) So anyway I would have been soooooo mad if my DVR would have cut off early!!! I checked it out and I record Life on Mars after LOST so I should be okay. I love that show too. I think the people that make that must watch LOST too cause there is some tricky stuff going on there!!!

    I love the idea of Lost cliff notes. I'd like to have something I can hold in my hands and read step by step lol Along with the reruns on ABC and the websites you can catch reruns on the SCIFI channel, G4 channel and also on Spike TV. I think it is G4 that does a "pop up video" kinda thing sometimes kind of like the thing that ABC is doing ahead of the new episodes each week.

    Everyone enjoy the show tonight and I'll see you here tomorrow!!! I'm gonna try to get on schedule this week!!! :)
  6. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Owww! My brain!!!! I am so confused I think MY nose is going to start bleeding! LOL

    All this time traveling plus flashbacks and flashforwards are just too much!!!!

    But that was a great episode. I was shocked at what a short time Locke was back in the real world before he died. Geez! That was so quick!

    I can't figure out who is a good guy and who is a bad guy!

    Should we trust Hurley, who usually has a trustworthy sense of good/evil?

    And oh my gosh, another plane crash!!! And another bunch of stranded survivors! And how long do you guys think Ben will live?

  7. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    OMG! No kidding Forebearance! When I saw in the previews that Widmore would be talking to Locke, I thought we would get answers. But now I have more questions than ever! Good? Bad? Truth? Lies? I don't know what to think!
    Just when I was starting to think Ben just might be a good guy, and Widmore the bad one, they go and pull this. Suddenly Widmore is all kind and caring, puppies and rainbows. Then the touching scene where Ben coaxes the shattered John down from the noose/table only to strangle him in cold blood!
    My first thought was this: Suicide is a sign that a person has lost their faith. Maybe Ben felt John needed to regain his faith before he died. So he told him it would all be ok, and they would get everyone gathered up, then BOOM, he kills him.

    Or, maybe Widmore is right and Ben is manipulating John into thinking he wants John back on the island.

    Ben was sure bothered to see Abaddon with John, then later to find out that John knew about Hawking. It's like he doesn't want John flipping over to the other side. Although its starting to sound like John was guided there by Widmore all along.

    I do know this much for sure - I need another viewing and some time to let it all sink in!

    It bugged me seeing the new people on the island, being all "in charge" and questioning John. Hey newbies, this is his island!

    And it turns out that 314 crashed afterall. But the O5 disappeared before it went down. So everyone was right!

    We got to see WAAAAAAAAALT. I have a feeling it will be a while before he returns. Things wont be quite right back on the island until everyone gets back.

    Just when the island got all the redshirts from 816 cleared out, it has a whole new batch of island castaways from 314.

    I'll be back later after I have had time to process all this.

    To anyone who is concerned about spoilers -

    From now on, I will leave out the episode synopsis in the first post. Also, previews are considered spoilers, so we should not discuss those either. Only the shows we have already seen.

    Anyone who tapes or tivo's Lost should just set it to go at least 10 minutes over, every week. They usually run 2-3 minutes long when they do go overtime, but this one was 6 minutes over. I WILL be putting that info in the new episode post, so check there beforehand.
  8. TwinMa

    TwinMa New Member

    Ben strangling John really took me for a loop! Didn't see that one coming! It definitely seems like it was spur of the moment after Locke mentioned Eloise Hawking.

    I agree about not knowing who is good and who is evil. I was just starting to think maybe Ben IS a good guy--then BAM! He kills John & Abadon. So maybe Ben is evil....

    But is Widmore good or evil? Maybe both Ben & Widmore are good guys OR bad guys? Maybe one isn't good and one bad. Maybe both are _____________(fill in the blank with Good/Evil).

    WAAAAALT! Really giant Walt with the funny voice.

    Will post more tomorrow. must sleep now. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  9. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    You know, you guys, I'm starting to think that both Ben and Widmore are evil. They've both done evil things while we've watched. Widmore has been really mean to Desmond. Ben has lied, killed, and expressed no concern for the welfare of innocent people.

    Maybe the whole thing is just a petty squabble over who gets to be the leader of the island. In that case, I'm feeling kind of Desmond-ish. I want nothing to do with that stupid island! What's so great about it, anyway? Why should we care who gets to lead the Others? You know what I mean???

    I wonder why the Dharma Initiative were looking for it in the first place? Wasn't Mr. Widmore associated with them?

    I'm disgusted with the lot of them. But like you, 4everkid, I'd like to watch this episode again to absorb it better.

  10. Bruin63

    Bruin63 Member

    Questions were answered, only to have more pop up.

    I just have one question, Where are the "Kids"
    Sun and Kate, what did they do with the "babies?)

    Kate told Jack to never ask her that question again.

    Can't wait for the next show, the previews made it look exciting, hoping to get more answers from it,
    like who are the new people?


    have a great weekend,
  11. jemini

    jemini New Member

    I don't have any deep observations about the show or anything but WAAAALT!!! LOL Who told him he could grow up into a man??? LOL I can't even believe he is that cute little boy looking for Vincent at the begining of the series! It makes me feel like I watched a baby grow up!

    I LOVED the scene with Hurley and Locke. Hurley was like...sorry you didn't make it dude. LOL He just figured he was talking to another dead guy and when he shouted out about am I talking to someone here and the nurse was all...ya. LOL The writers are hilarious!

    Ben scares the heck out of me. He is so creepy. I don't think I've seen him on anything that he didn't play a creepy guy but now he has it down to a serious art!

    I saw a preview for a new show with Michael (sorry I don't know his real name) as a main character. I sure hope it doesn't stop him from coming back to the show at least as a guest cause it made me so sad when Walt asked Locke about him and said that he hadn't been to see him at all. I'm glad Locke didn't say he thought he had been killed.

    I guess I had way more to say than I thought. :)

    I'll be back to see more what you guys have to say!!! XO
  12. TwinMa

    TwinMa New Member

    I actually made notes while watching LOST. My husband was looking at me like I was nuts. I just said "What?!" lol

    **Locke was found on the island in a suit standing in a pool of water. This brought up a baptismal image for me. He had been "saved".

    On a more scientific note--since he was dead and taken to a funeral parlor, he would have been embalmed. No more blood running through those veins. I guess that's where the island miracles come in. A bit of a reach for me, though.

    **The woman who had Sayid in custody sure looks a lot like Ana Lucia. Same lips and hair. They could be sisters. Hmmm.

    **John getting his leg set in Tunisia sent chills up my spine. I had a broken leg (femur) and I could relate a bit too much. Ouch.

    **Widmore said he had met Locke when he was 17. He also said he was leader of the others (he said he just called them his people, not others) for 30 years. So then Ben took over at that point?? I thought Ben took over leadership after he & Richard Alpert gassed his dad and all the Dharma people. Where was Widmore at that point? Am I getting the groups mixed up? Help!

    **What do you think this war is about that Widmore is talking about? The "wrong side" will win if JL doesn't go back. I wonder who the right side and wrong side are according to Widmore.

    **Did you see the look on JL face when he had to go back in that wheelchair? He did NOT want to go back into it, even if it was temporary.

    **Matt Abadon’s job is to help people get to to where they need to get to. He helped Locke when he was an orderly and he told him to go on his walkabout. When else has he helped people that we’ve seen? I remember him going to see Hurley in the mental institute, but I don’t remember what that conversation was about. Wasn’t he representing Oceanic?

    **Waaaalt!!!! Grown up Walt. It was good to see him again. Strange that Locke would decide to just leave him alone, though.

    **Best line of this episode:
    Locke: I was angry. I was obsessed.
    Kate: Look how far you’ve come.

  13. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    TwinMa -
    I did not see that strangulation coming either! I was busy being all touched by Bens compassion towards John.

    Widmore & Ben, good and evil? Maybe both are ______ .....
    Working towards the same goal (the good of the island/saving mankind) but with different world views - science vs faith??? Thats my feelings for today anyway.

    Have you seen the youtube video compilation of the gazillion times Michael screamed "WAAAAALLLLLTTTTT!"? Pretty funny.

    I started taking notes too. My ex daughter in law calls me as soon as each episode ends. I am always so mind blown I can't think straight. Notes help.

    Good catch on the baptism symbolism with Locke in the water!

    We don't have enough info on the Widmore timeline yet. Born in 1937, he was 17 in 1954. He lead his group for 30 years. But we don't know when that officially began and ended. He had to have been gone before the purge in 1992 to be alive today. He began funding Dan Faradays research in 1994. Maybe Ben was leading the Others before the purge, and just pretending to be with Dharma. We just don't know yet. Its still sketchy.

    We don't know what the war is about yet. I wonder if it is about the purge. Considering that our people are stuck in the past, and Widmore knows they can get to the past, maybe he wants them to go back and stop the purge so Dharma can continue.

    Matthew Abaddon claimed to be a representitive of Oceanic. I think he was lying. We saw him with Naomi and know he was involved in recruiting the science team: Dan, Charlotte, Miles, and Frank to pilot them.

    Forebearance -
    I think Ben & Widmore both seem evil by our standards. But they both believe they are working for the "greater good" a belief of the real Jeremy Bentham: philosopher. Its ok to kill someone if a larger number of people will benefit. (See my next post.)

    I think there is more to it than just finding a leader for the Others. We just don't know what that is yet. Something along the lines of saving the world. Something having to do with the islands properties and the power in them. They want someone who will lead them to that goal.

    Widmore was originally a member (and self claimed leader) of what we call the Others. But I think he became financially involved with Dharma soon after he left the island.

    Sharonk -
    Lots of kids to wonder about! The babies, Waaaalllllttt, & the tailie kids the Others kidnapped. I think Walt and Aaron will have to come back eventually. But I bet they make us sweat it out till next season.

    Jemini - They really worked Malcolm David Kelley's growth spurt into the storyline well by saving him till 3-4 years had passed.

    Interesting that Hurley was drawing a picture of the sphinx. Besides that big lovable lion-headed statue, the word has other meanings.
    Sphinx - an inscrutable person who keeps his thoughts and intentions secret. Also, the word sphinx comes from the Greek verb sphíng?, meaning "to strangle". These people should start taking Hurley more seriously!

    I thought it was sweet that Locke spared Walt the truth about his father. Walt lost respect for his Dad when he sold out his island friends to save Walt. So if Walt believes he returned to the island to help them, he will regain his respect for his father.
  14. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    During Johns death scene, it seemed the mention of Hawking made Ben snap. I think he didn't want John talking to her, plus her name was the info HE needed to get back.
    Ben now knows that Widmore has gotten to John. He needed to take control of the situation or risk being cut out of the loop. If John went to Hawking himself, Ben wouldn't be needed. With John incapacitated, Ben's running the show now and Widmore is out of the loop. Ben knew he could convince the losties to return. He just took what they were most emotionally invested in and exploited it - like always. Jins ring convinced Sun to go back. Aaron was probably taken & Kate forced return to insure his safety. Sayid was captured and forced onto the plane.

    I think the conversation about Widmore choosing Lockes new alias holds a clue.

    The real Jeremy Bentham & John Locke were British philosophers. But they were ideological opposites. John Locke was all about natural rights (moral rights) - life, liberty, and property – rights we are born with.
    Bentham considered Locke's belief in natural rights nonsense. He did not believe that any being possessed rights by nature. Bentham was a legal rights thinker (civil rights) - rights created by the law. He was also known for his advocacy of utilitarianism – the belief that the right action is the one that causes the most good for the greater number of people. “The Greater Good” was the title of an episode from season 1.

    What I found most interesting is when Widmore said, "Your parents had a sense of humor when they named you, so why can't I?"
    Maybe where his "sense of humor" comes in is this:

    As requested in his will, the real Jeremy Benthams body was preserved and stored in a chair, in a wooden cabinet. The "Auto-icon" as it’s called, is kept on public display at the University College London. He has, on several occasions, been brought out for meetings of the College Council, where he was listed as "present but not voting".

    Does this remind anyone of Jacob?
    Jeremy Bentham's dead body sitting in a chair in a wooden cabinet.
    Jacob, and soon John Locke, sitting in a chair in a wooden cabin.

    Does Widmore know John will end up in the cabin eventually?

    Maybe its not really a matter of good and evil, or which side Ben & Widmore are on. Perhaps its more about science vs faith. Maybe they are both on the same side, but with opposing world views. Like Locke & Jack. They both want to preserve and protect the island. But Widmore believes that it must be done through scientific study and understanding, whereas Ben works on faith alone.

    Maybe this is why Widmore sent the mercenaries to wipe out Ben & his followers, (for “the greater good”) and a team of scientists to the island to replace them. He already knew they would end up there, but he guided them along to insure their arrival there. Maybe he wants Daniel and the rest of the Losties working for Dharma (either in the past so they can stop the purge from happening, or in the present so that Dharmas mission can continue, or both!)

    I am beginning to think that Ben & Widmore both were competing to be Lockes official pallbearer of the skies. Maybe that's the only way to get back after being exiled - if you are escorting someone back. Maybe neither want Locke leading. Ben made that clear when he shot him and left him for dead the first time. And why would Widmore want this wishy-washy man of faith in charge when he has been pouring his wealth into the scientific study of the island? But they both know the island wants Locke, and that it will bring HIM back.

    Locke is just the "get back to the island free" card. A pawn. A magic casket ride.

    Thats what I am thinking today. It could all change tomorrow.
  15. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    I like all the observations!

    I like your idea of John Locke being a "get back to the island free" card, 4everkid. It makes sense. I was wondering why Ben dared to try to return to the island when he knew he wasn't allowed to do that. I can't say I'd feel bad if he died from his airplane injuries.

    There is a lot of physical injury and disability in this program, you know it? And people having to deal with the humiliation of being incapacitated.

    Way back before the purge happened, we know that Richard Alpert had cultivated a friendship with young Ben. Somehow Ben got motivated to kill all the Dharma-ites. We don't know where Charles Widmore was at that time. He could have been the leader of the Others at that point, and have been out in the jungle somewhere. Although with his subsequent ties to Dharma, it is hard to understand why he would want them dead. I have a feeling he was around, because he talked about Ben tricking him into leaving. He would have had to meet Ben in order for that to happen.

    I think the thing that was confusing me the most about this episode was the circle of events. It happens so often on Lost. The original idea to lie about the Left Behinders came from John Locke. He convinced Jack to lie in order to protect the Left Behinders. Jack convinced the rest of the Oceanic 6. So then Hurley was terrified of Mr. Abbadon because he did not want to tell Mr. A. the truth. But then later, John showed up with Mr. A. and said Mr. A. was all right.

    So shouldn't Hurley have believed John about that? If the original idea to lie came from John, couldn't he determine who it was okay to tell the truth to? But it seemed that by then it was too late. The idea of protecting the people who were left behind was firmly implanted in Hurley's brain. Plus Mr. A had been obviously lying about representing Oceanic Airlines and was just creepy.

    Pardon me while I work this out!

    I still remain to be convinced about what the greater good or higher purpose is for all the skullduggery perpetrated by Ben and Charles W. I hope that the program will convince me it's all been worth it.

    And what about the kind of international spy network that Sayid was involved with? Who are all those shifty employees of either Ben or Widmore who roam the world and spy on people?

    It makes it look like they each have some kind of large organization behind them.

    Yeah, I think Michael Emerson is going to be ranked right up there with Christopher Walken as one of the best creepy character actors.

    [This Message was Edited on 02/28/2009]
  16. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    Even though Ben has managed (barely) to get himself back, I still don't think the island will want him. Notice that he is not healed like John. In fact he is even more injured now. I don't think it will kill him right away, but it should be interesting to see what happens.

    I agree that Widmore had to have been on the island after Ben arrived. But I think you have your timeline off a little. Young Ben arrived on the island in 76-77 ish and it was roughly a year later that he met Richard in the jungle. The purge didn't happen till 1992. Remember...he was an adult when he gassed his dad and the rest. So there was plenty of time in there between Bens arrival and the purge, for Widmore to be tricked by Ben and leave before the purge.

    I am wondering if "the incident" coincides with Widmore turning the wheel. We don't know the exact date of it though. The Swan orientation film was made in 1980. The Swan was originally a lab where they studied the electomagnetic properties of the island. It was after the incident that the button pushing protocol had to be implemented, as mentioned in the film. But the blast door map says the incident happened in 1985. Maybe the part about the button protocol was spliced in later. (The whole film IS pretty choppy.)

    So it could work. If Widmore became leader shortly after we saw him in 1954, and the incident happened in 1985, there's a nice, tidy 30 years of King Widmore time that would get him out of the way well before the purge. Also Miles said in 2005 that Widmore had been looking for the island for 20 years.

    So it all fits perfectly! Widmore became leader in 1955, turned the wheel in 1985, and found the island in 2005.

    It will be interesting to see if Widmores interest in Dharma began before or after he left the island. He began funding Daniel Faradays research in 1994, after the purge.

    I understand your confusion about the lie, John & Abaddon. But remember, John is very gullible. And another thing to consider is that between the time that John told Jack they had to lie, and the time he was hanging with Abaddon, he traveled to the past and met Widmore.

    The lie was to protect the left behinders from Widmore. But Widmore knows they are still on the island AND time traveling because he remembers meeting them. Then gullible John filled in all the blanks by telling him it happened for him only 4 days ago. John is so needy for affection it seems, he will trust anyone who shows him any compassion. Here's this nice man, paying for his hospital care, he must be a good guy.... John is a sucker!

    Abaddon is creepy. His name is ultra creepy! It's hard to trust anyone whose name means "Angel of the Abyss." Many Biblical scholars believe Abaddon to be Satan or the antichrist. Others have stated that he may be one of the lesser demons of hell, or even a dark angel.

    I don't think there is any good in either Ben or Widmore. I think they both need to be overthrown by a third, clearly good person. If its going to be John, he is going to have to step it up and quit being such a sucker. Kate was right... he needs a woman!

    Who else thinks Helens grave was faked to cut all of Johns ties to the real world?
  17. 4everkid

    4everkid New Member

    I was watching the tvguide channel tonight and they talked with the guy who started Lostpedia. It was on the TV Watercooler "show" that shows on the upper 2/3 of the screen above the scrolling tvguide channel.

    Anyway, he talked about Lostedia, and answered a few questions. I forgot most of them, but he did say something interesting that got me to thinking.

    When asked about good/bad - Ben/Widmore, he said he thinks they are both bad, and have different purposes for using the island. The good side is our people... Locke, Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, etc. The losties are caught between two evil forces battling each other.

    I like that. A lot. I think it has been mentioned here that both guys could be bad guys. I have been thinking about it.

    Locke needs to quit looking for guidance from either side. He is the ONLY one who is truly in tune with the Island itself. He needs to do what HE feels is right. Stop looking for advise from liars and manipulators. The island healed him and now has resurrected him. Time to take charge!