A Possible Explanation

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Annesse, Mar 11, 2012.

  1. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    Hi everyone, this is my first post, but I have been reading the posts here for awhile and I think this is a great group. I was diagnosed with lupus, CFS and Fibro more than 20 years ago.

    I believe that CFS, Fibro, lupus, RA, Sjogrens, hypothyroidism and MS all originate from the same source. I have been able to trace every single symptom and every valid scientific finding of all of these diseases directly back to this source. Findings such as low dopamine, low iron, lack of B12 and vitamin D, low magnesium, lack of CoQ10, dysautonomia, white matter lesions, spinal cord changes, etc. Also, every single symptom in clear detail can be explained. Even the connection to peptides can be explained, which is a current topic of discussion here.

    The source is missing pancreatic enzymes called proteases. They break down proteins. I can demonstrate how this is done by starting with the findings of Dr. Woods. He is the scientific director of the Fibromyalgia Association of America. His findings in Fibro are low dopamine, low iron, spinal cord changes and dysautonomia or a dysfunction in the autonomic nervous system.

    First, dopamine- Dopamine is derived from tyrosine. Tyrosine is derived from phenylalanine. Phenylalanine is an essential amino acid found in high protein foods. If you lack protease, you would not be able to break down high protein foods and release phenylalanine. Here is a study that shows fibromyalgia patients lack phenylalanine. http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=14396

    Second, low iron- These same protease regulate iron absorption. Here is the link. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2430097/

    Third, spinal cord changes- According to the National Institutes of Health, subacute combined degeneration of the spinal cord is CAUSED by a vitamin B12 deficiency. Vitamin B12 is only found attached to dietary animal proteins. As this next study shows, these pancreatic enzymes are ESSENTIAL for the binding, transport and absorption of vitamin B12.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC371670/

    Fourth, dysautonomia- The two neurotransmitters that regulate the autonomic nervous system are adrenaline and acetylcholine. Adrenaline come from dopamine. (Dopamine comes from phenylalanine)
    The other neurotransmitter is acetylcholine. Acetylcholine comes from choline and choline is synthesized from B12.

    In this way, every symptom and every valid scientific finding can be traced directly back to these pancreatic enzymes.
  2. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    This next study entitled, "Hematologic and Urinary Excretion Anomalies in Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome," found the same lack of phenylalanine in CFS patients as has been found in fibro. The study states there was a "significant decrease" found in phenylalanine. The study also found a lack of numerous other amino acids all found in high protein foods.

    The researchers state that "The MAJORITY of studies have found that CFS patients lack amino acids."

    One of the other amino acids found lacking in the study is asparagine. Here is what the researchers state. "The reduction in the urinary output of asparagine in CFS patients noted in this study may be consistent with IMPAIRED PROTEIN SYNTHESIS, since asparagine is an important amino acid in protein structures, required for forming GLYOPEPTIDES."

    http://ebm.rsmjournals.com/content/232/8/1041.full



  3. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    The study I posted above on CFS also found a "significant decrease" in succinic acid. If a CFS patient is unable to break down proteins, they would not only lack amino acids, but they would also lack vitamin B12. The low levels of succinic acid are an indication of a lack of B12 in CFS. B12 is responsible for the conversion of odd chain fatty acids (specifically propionate) into succinate.

    The study also revealed that CFS patients had a "significant decrease in red cell distribution." Vitamin B12 plays a major role in the formation of hemoglobin for red blood cells. Of course, we also have direct evidence of a lack of B12 in fibromyalgia and CFS. Here is one study that found low B12 and resulting high homocyseine in the cerebrospinal fluid of CFS and fibromyalgia. It is important to note that this is where the spinal cord changes are taking place. Even if you have a high serum (blood) level, without protease, as the study I posted shows, you would not be able to properly metabolize B12.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9310111

    The lack of the essential amino acid phenylalanine, found in CFS and Fibro, would not only lead to a lack of dopamine, it would also lead to a lack of both of the thyroid hormones and both of the adrenal hormones.

    Phenylalanine breaks down into tyrosine. Tyrosine is then used for the synthesis of both of the thyroid hormones- thyroxine and triiodothyronine.

    Tyrosine also breaks down into dopamine. Dopamine is the precursor to both of the adrenal hormones-adrenaline and noradrenaline.

    If the hypothyroidism found in CFS and Fibro is a result of a lack of phenylalanine due to an inability to digest proteins, then we should be able to find the same lack of vitamin B12 in hypothyroidism as we see in CFS and fibro.

    A lack of vitamin B12 leads to a condition called pernicious anemia. In pernicious anemia, red blood cells are formed abnormally due to an inability to absorb B12. According to a study entitled: Anemia in Hypothyroidism, "Pernicious anemia occurs 20 TIMES more frequently in patients with hypothyroidism than generally."

    Additional studies confirm that vitamin B12 deficiency is common is hypothyroidism. Here are the titles to two studies that found severe deficiencies in B12 in hypothyroidism.

    "Vitamin B12 Deficiency Common in Primary Hypothyroidism"
    "Prevalence and Evaluation of B12 Deficiency in Patients with Autoimmune Thyroid Disease."
  4. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    It's an interesting theory. I took pancreatic enzymes for 6 months or so and did not improve though.

    Have you done anything based on your theory which helped you to improve, like taking pancreatic enzymes?

    Also, some people get sick very quickly - feel like they get a flu they never recover from, and that doesn't seem like it would be due to a lack of pancreatic enzymes, but some type of infectious agent.

    If you've developed any sort of protocol based on this theory, I'd like to hear what it is.

    Best wishes,

    Mary

  5. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    Just to recap, so far the inability to properly digest dietary proteins because of a lack of pancreatic enzymes called proteases would account for the following symptoms of CFS and Fibro: low dopamine, low iron, spinal cord changes, dysautonomia,hypothyroidism, low adrenal function, lack of B12, and the formation of abnormal peptides.

    Three other symptoms that can be completely explained by a lack of proteases are sun and chemical sensitivity and hormonal imbalance.

    Vitamin B12 is a critical component in the formation of hemoglobin. Heme is a red pigment composed of iron linked to a chemical called protoporphyrin. Heme has many important functions in the body. Heme is found in the largest amounts in the blood and bone marrow in the form of hemoglobin within the red blood cells. Hemoglobin gives blood its red color and carries oxygen to every part of the body.

    The process of making heme is called the heme biosynthetic pathway. Each step of the process is controlled by one of eight enzymes. If any one of the eight enzymes is deficient, the pathway is disrupted. As a result, porphyrin, or its chemical precursors, may build up in body tissues and cause illness.

    Porhyrins can accumulate in the skin and cause photosensitivity. Exposure to the sunlight may cause symptoms such as redness,rash, itching, burning, blistering, and swelling. Once triggered, an episode can escalate and cause even more toxic porphyrins to build up in the tissues, leading to even more serious illness.

    The first enzyme in the heme pathway is Succinyl-CoA. Vitamin B12 serves as a cofactor for methylmalonyl-CoA mutase which converts methylmalonyl-CoA to Succinyl-CoA. Therefore, a lack of vitamin B12 would lead to a failure in the entire heme pathway.

    In the next post, I will show how a failure in the heme biosynthetic pathway would lead to chemical sensitivity and the inability to properly metabolize hormones.

    In the end, every symptom and every valid scientific finding no matter how small, will be accounted for. In addition, other researchers findings, such as low glutathione and dysregulated nitric oxide will be clearly traced back to these enzymes. Not only does the lack of proteases account for all symptoms and findings of CFS, fibro, lupus, hypothyroidism and MS, but they also account for associated conditions, such as restless leg syndrome and interstitial cystitis as well.
    RadioFM likes this.
  6. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    Hi Mary,

    Sorry, our posts crossed over. Your questions on the presence of an infectious agent and feeling as if you have a bad case of the flu will be clearly explained as well.

    I would like to present more evidence first before we talk about a protocol. In my next few posts, I will show clearly what specific enzyme has been found lacking and why you can not replace it through supplementation.

    I want to finish the post I started on chemical sensitivity and hormone imbalance first and then I will address the bacterial, viral and fungal connection and also the flu-like feeling.
  7. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    Once our bodies produce heme, it goes on to become an essential component of our bodies first line of defense against chemicals and environmental pollutants;a powerful enzyme detoxification system called cytochrome P450.

    The cytochrome P450 enzyme system detoxifies all sorts of different chemicals that we eat and breathe, including drugs, carcinogens formed in cooking and poisonous compounds in plants. For instance, cytochrome P450 is the reason doctors tell you not to drink grapefruit juice when taking certain medications. Grapefruits contain a flavinol molecule that inhibits cytochrome P450 enzymes. This would slow down the detoxification of the drug and might cause it to have a stronger effect than intended.

    The cytochrome P450 enzyme system also plays an essential role in hormone synthesis. It converts cholesterol into pregnenolone, which then gets converted into other hormones like estrogen, testosterone, cortisol, and DHEA. A defect in the cytochrome P450 enzyme system would account for the abnormal hormone metabolism found in CFS and Fibro.

    The active site of cytochrome P450 contains a heme iron center, and therefore, cytochrome P450 enzymes are hemoproteins. A failure in the heme biosynthetic pathway would also result in a failure of the cytochrome P450 enzyme detoxification system.
  8. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    I'm only skimming your posts very briefly, too much for me to try to digest (no pun intended!) right now, but it looks interesting, and I look forward to reading the rest --

    Mary
  9. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    Thanks Mary, I just posted some information on the arthritis board that is relevant to your question yesterday. I will follow up tomorrow on how tumor necrosis factor is involved in CFS. I am trying to space this info out a little because I know it is alot to absorb all at once.
  10. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    On the arthritis board under the thread "New Information", I posted some information on one of the factors involved in arthritis-tumor necrosis factor(TNF). TNF is just a normal necessary part of the immune system, but it is not being regulated properly due to a lack of protease. Among other things, it leads to the localized heat, redness, and swelling found in RA.

    TNF is also dysregulated in CFS. Here is the title of one study that confirms this. "Dysregulated expression of tumor necrosis factor in chronic fatigue syndrome:interrelations with cellular sources and patterns of soluble immune mediator expression."

    Chronic low levels of TNF would lead to the sore throat, swollen glands and low grade fevers CFS sufferers often experience. It would also cause malaise and flu-like symptoms as the following information shows.

    http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfitzake/Lectures/DMED/Antineoplastics/ImmuneSystem/TNF.html

    In the next post, I will explain why the presence of an infectious agent would deplete protease.
  11. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Annesse.

    As you know from our previous communications on the PR board, I think that your hypothesis about a deficiency in proteases (or in the a case of lupus, a nuclease) is a plausible (but unproven) one for the autoimmune diseases. However, as you also know, I don't believe, based on the evidence I've seen, that ME/CFS is an autoimmune disease, and I am skeptical that a protease deficiency is the cause of ME/CFS.

    It occurs to me that I may have some data that would be relevant to testing your hypothesis for ME/CFS, though I don't have data for the autoimmune diseases.

    Have you narrowed down to which protease or proteases you think might be deficient in ME/CFS? As far as I know, the main pancreatic proteases (in their activated forms) are normally trypsin, chymotrypsin, elastase1, carboxypeptidase A, and carboxypeptidase B.

    As you may know, several labs offer comprehensive diagnostic stool analyses, and each of them includes measurement of one of the proteases in the stools to evaluate the function of the exocrine pancreas. Of the four labs with which I am familiar, two of them measure chymotrypsin, and two measure elastase1. I have data from these labs from various people who have ME/CFS. I keep people's names in confidence, of course, but if it would be relevant to your hypothesis, I could review my files and tell you what some measured values were in comparison to their normal ranges, for several tests. My recollection is that these values have usually come out in their normal ranges or even higher than normal, but I would have to review them to get the actual numbers. If this would be of interest to you, please let me know.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  12. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    Hi Rich,

    I haven't gotten into here yet what the immune system is actually targeting in autoimmune disease. In lupus, type 2 diabetes, interstitial cystitis and rosacea, new research is showing the immune system is actually targeting abnormal peptides and unbroken down DNA and protein fragments, not normal tissue. Nor have I presented the very definitive spinal tap study evidence that points directly to protease in CFS and Fibro.

    On the PR board, I think the comparison that was made between MS and CFS showed that there is no distinction between CFS and MS. I was able to show that every symptom of MS can be traced directly back to missing pancreatic enzymes. I believe these diseases all originate with a lack of proteases and DNase 1. My belief is evidence based. I try not to say anything I can't prove.

    Rich, I know you believe that a lack of glutathione is the basis for CFS, but a lack of glutathione is found in all of the diseases we have been discussing. For instance, in the study entitled, "Correlation of lipid peroxidation and gluthathione levels with severity of systemic lupus erythematosus: a pilot study from single center," it states in the conclusion, " A significant correlation between plasma GSH and SLE severity exists..."

    Also, a lack of protease and DNase 1 does clearly explain why there is a lack of glutathione in these diseases. Here is some information from my new book.

    "As with carnitine, the essential amino acid methionine is also needed to produce glutathione. You may have heard of this "rock star" of antioxidants. it is an integral part of the body's detoxification system. It helps the mitochondria avoid or repair damage that would normally lead to mitochondrial dysfunction and cell death. Methionine is a precursor for cysteine and cysteine is a precursor for glutathione.

    "The lack of methionine, as was found in the previous study on fibromyalgia, would lead to a deficiency in glutathione."

    Here is an additional study that shows that a lack of methionine and cysteine would affect glutathione levels. "Methionine and Cysteine Affect Glutathione Level, Glutathione-Related Enzyme Activities and the Expression of Glutathione S-Transferase Isozymes in Rat Hepatocytes."

  13. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Annesse.

    Thank you for your response. I certainly appreciate your effort in developing hypotheses. I enjoy doing that myself. However, ultimately a hypothesis must be evaluated by whether it agrees with observations made in the real world.

    I've gone ahead and scanned my files for data on pancreatic protease levels from stool tests on people who have ME/CFS. Here are the data that I have:

    Metametrix G.I. Function Profile--Elastase1:

    Patient #1 291 micrograms per milliliter (Normal is > or = 200)
    Patient #2 485 micrograms per gram (Normal is > or =184)
    Patient #3 >500 " " " "
    Patient #4 >500 " " " "


    Doctors Data Lab CDSA--Elastase1:

    Patient #5 >500 micrograms per milliliter (Normal is > or =200)
    Patient #6 414 " " " "
    Patient #7 >500 " " " "
    Patient #8 318 " " " "


    Genova Diagnostics CDSA 2.0--Elastase1

    Patient #9 >500 micrograms per gram (Normal is > or = 201)


    Healthscope--Elastase1

    Patient #10 449.5 (Normal is >200)


    Genova Diagnostics CDSA--Chymotrypsin:

    Patient #11 17.6 U/g (Normal is 0.9 to 26.8)


    Diagnos-Techs Expanded G.I. Health Panel--Chymotrypsin:

    Patient #12 22 U/10 grams (Normal is> 9)

    Patient #13 <3 " "

    Patient #14 <3 " "

    Patient #15 4 " "

    As you can see, of these 15 patients, only the last three showed a low pancreatic protease (chymotrypsin). I should note that these last three are not uncomplicated ME/CFS cases. I suspect from other data that patient #13 had Wilson's disease as the initiator of the ME/CFS. Patient #14 used a proton pump inhibitor drug, which lowers stomach acid and thus lowers the signal to the pancreas to secrete digestive enzymes. Patient #15 has an autoimmune reaction provoked by vaccinations he received.

    So far, I do not see convincing evidence that pancreatic protease enzyme secretion is low in most ME/CFS patients. Again, I do think your hypothesis is plausible for the autoimmune diseases, but I think it will be necessary to check it against measurements of pancreatic enzyme levels in actual autoimmune disease patients to see if it is valid.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  14. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    Hi Rich,

    I think the recent spinal tap study findings are definitive proof that proteases play a key role in CFS and fibro. Also, as you know, I believe DNase 1 is involved. This is what Suzanne Vernon, the scientific director of the Chronic Fatigue and Immune Dysfunction Syndrome Association of America stated about these results: "They looked at a really important fluid, using a really advanced technology..I'm very excited about this, you can't dispute these biological findings."

    Here are the first two findings:

    1)Two proteins suggesting a protease-antiprotease imbalance is present.

    2)Several proteins suggesting small amounts of bleeding in the brain could be caused by the aggregation of proteins (amyloids) in the blood vessel.
    (Johnson,2010)

    All of the spinal tap study findings can be traced directly back to protease.

  15. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi Rich,

    ***Hi, Annesse.

    I haven't gotten into here yet what the immune system is actually targeting in autoimmune disease. In lupus, type 2 diabetes, interstitial cystitis and rosacea, new research is showing the immune system is actually targeting abnormal peptides and unbroken down DNA and protein fragments, not normal tissue.

    ***That makes sense to me. Does the immune response cross-react and attack normal tissue, also?

    Nor have I presented the very definitive spinal tap study evidence that points directly to protease in CFS and Fibro.

    ***I think you are referring to Baraniuk's work, right? We may have differing interpretations of it.

    On the PR board, I think the comparison that was made between MS and CFS showed that there is no distinction between CFS and MS.

    ***I agree that there are some features and some symptoms in common, but there are also differences between these two disorders. In MS, there is an autoimmune attack on the myelin. In ME/CFS, there is also myelin damage, but the character of it is different. I suspect that the mechanism is disrepair of the myelin because of a functional B12 deficiency and a resulting methylation deficit.

    I was able to show that every symptom of MS can be traced directly back to missing pancreatic enzymes.

    ***I think it should be noted that not all protease enzymes originate in the pancreas. All cells produce proteases that are used within the cells themselves to break down damaged proteins so that they can be replaced. Cells of the immune system produce proteases to help in combating pathogens and toxins.

    I believe these diseases all originate with a lack of proteases and DNase 1. My belief is evidence based. I try not to say anything I can't prove.

    ***I appreciate that, but I think there is more required to prove a hypothesis than to match words in different papers together. There needs to be comparison to actual measured data.

    Rich, I know you believe that a lack of glutathione is the basis for CFS, but a lack of glutathione is found in all of the diseases we have been discussing. For instance, in the study entitled, "Correlation of lipid peroxidation and gluthathione levels with severity of systemic lupus erythematosus: a pilot study from single center," it states in the conclusion, " A significant correlation between plasma GSH and SLE severity exists..."

    ***It's true that glutathione depletion occurs in a variety of disorders and diseases. However, that does not make these diseases identical.

    Also, a lack of protease and DNase 1 does clearly explain why there is a lack of glutathione in these diseases. Here is some information from my new book.

    "As with carnitine, the essential amino acid methionine is also needed to produce glutathione. You may have heard of this "rock star" of antioxidants. it is an integral part of the body's detoxification system. It helps the mitochondria avoid or repair damage that would normally lead to mitochondrial dysfunction and cell death. Methionine is a precursor for cysteine and cysteine is a precursor for glutathione.

    "The lack of methionine, as was found in the previous study on fibromyalgia, would lead to a deficiency in glutathione."

    It's true that when methionine becomes depleted, it is difficult for the cells to make enough cysteine for glutathione synthesis. However, lack of pancreatic proteases is only one possible cause for low methionine, and as far as I can tell from the data, which I posted in my other post, it is not the initial cause of methionine depletion in ME/CFS. As the dysfunction of the digestive system develops during the pathogenesis, there are a lot of interactions that develop, and low secretion of pancreatic enzymes could certainly be a contributor to poor digestion of proteins and hence, poor absorption of amino acids, including methionine. However, I suspect that low secretion of pancreatic proteases, which seems to occur in only a minority of cases of ME/CFS, based on the measured data I have posted, is probably a secondary effect of low stomach acid, which results from glutathione depletion in the parietal cells of the stomach. When the stomach acid is low, a poor signal is sent to the pancreas to secrete digestive enzymes. There are cells in the wall of the duodenum that normally detect acid in the food coming from the stomach, and secrete the hormone secretin, which signals the pancreas.

    Here is an additional study that shows that a lack of methionine and cysteine would affect glutathione levels. "Methionine and Cysteine Affect Glutathione Level, Glutathione-Related Enzyme Activities and the Expression of Glutathione S-Transferase Isozymes in Rat Hepatocytes."

    There's no question that lack of methionine and cysteine will affect glutathione levels. However, in ME/CFS, there is the question of which is the cause and which is the effect. As I have suggested in the GD-MCB hypothesis, glutathione depletion will lead to depletion of methionine, via induction of a B12 functional deficiency, which in turn causes a partial block in methionine synthase, which prevents a normal rate of conversion of homocysteine back to methionine. Over time, methionine usually becomes depleted, unless the person has a diet high in methionine, or unless there is also a deficiency of B6 and/or magnesium, which prevents homocysteine from draining rapidly into the transsulfuration pathway. I have found some PWMEs who are depleted in methionine, and I have found others who are not. The situation is not simple, and it is necessary to do extensive testing of the biochemistry to figure out what is going on in detail in each case.

    Again, I am not writing these things to discourage you (I gather that you are note easily discouraged, anyway! :)-), and I think that's a good quality.). As I have continued to post, I do think that your hypothesis is plausible for the truly autoimmune diseases, and the anecdotal success stories from people who have these diseases and have followed your treatment advice seem to bear this out. However, having studied ME/CFS for quite a while now, I don't believe that it is an autoimmune disorder.

    Best regards,

    Rich

  16. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    These would be some of the more unpleasant side effects of having a pancreatic protease deficiency. Protease are responsible for breaking down proteins into smaller amino acids. They are also responsible for keeping the small intestines free from parasites (such as intestinal worms), yeast overgrowth, and bacteria. Parasites, fungal forms, and bacteria are proteins that additionally disguise themselves in a protein sheath that our bodies may view as normal. Proteases work by removing this protein sheath. With the protective barrier down, your immune system can destroy the invading organism.

    Oftentimes, CFS and fibro sufferers say their disease was preceded by a viral or bacterial infection. If you are bordering on a pancreatic enzyme deficiency and you contact a viral or bacterial infection, this would deplete your protease as they would be needed to 'disarm' the invader.
  17. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    Sorry Rich, our posts crossed over.
    I do think we all came to a general consensus that there was no difference between MS and CFS based on the evidence presented. If someone had a question or concern, it was addressed.

    There is no evidence in MS that the myelin damage is caused by the immune system. Numerous studies show that MS patients are unable to metabolize vitamin B12 and the white matter lesions in MS and CFS are consistent with vitamin B12 deficiency. Here is the title to a study that shows how the lack of B12 will lead to the same white matter lesions as are found in MS and CFS.

    "Plasma Vitamin B12 Status and Cerebral White-matter Lesions"

    Here is some additional information on the pancreatic function and CFS.
    The source is highly reputable.

    http://www.investinme.org/Article-020%20What%20is%20ME%20What%20is%20CFS.htm

    It states,"Pancreatitis is not uncommon and may cause acute, severe pain: pancreatic exocrine insufficiency leads to malabsorption, which is a well-recognised feature found in the more severely affected; some patients have almost non-existent pancreatic function. Some patients have been shown to have achlorhydria."

    My goal in posting here is to show that every symptom and valid scientific finding of CFS and Fibro can be traced directly back to protease and Dnase 1. There is "A new and emerging theory on the orgins of autoimmune disease," as was stated by the researchers from Anschutz Medical Center that discovered the exact abnomal peptide that triggers the immune response in diabetes. I believe that according to this "new evidence" of abnomal proteins being made as a result of a lack of amino acids, CFS does indeed belong in the same catogory. The second spinal fluid study finding of 'amyloids' which are misshapen proteins, is evidence of this. As is the lack of the amino acid asparagine, which is needed to form normal peptides.
  18. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Annesse.

    In response to your statements, as follows:

    "I do think we all came to a general consensus that there was no difference between MS and CFS based on the evidence presented. If someone had a question or concern, it was addressed."

    I'm not sure that the Phoenix Rising forum population is very well versed on multiple sclerosis, since it is a forum dedicated to ME/CFS. So a seeming consensus there really doesn't settle the matter, in my opinion. I wish I could have devoted enough time to address all the issues you raised there, because I believe that you are a serious seeker, as I am. But, and I suspect that you are in the same situation, there are more demands on time than I can satisfy.

    I do however, want to make the point that multiple sclerosis and ME/CFS are in my opinion profoundly different. I think that one of the most fundamental differences is that in MS, all the signs and symptoms can be traced to lesions in the central nervous system, and there is no evidence of systemic illness in the rest of the body. In ME/CFS, on the other hand, though the central nervous system is involved, the disorder is systemic. It involves at least the immune system, the skeletal muscles, the heart muscle, and parts of the endocrine system.

    The signs and symptoms in an individual case of MS depend on where the lesions are in the central nervous system, and thus they can vary quite a lot from one patient to another. In ME/CFS, on the other hand, there is more commonality in the signs and symptoms. Certain ones are almost always present, such as the fatigue and post-exertional fatigue, which are hallmarks of this disorder.

    Best regards,

    Rich

  19. Annesse

    Annesse Member

    Hi Again Rich,

    I wholeheartedly disagree.

    First- I just recently posted on the dysregulated tumor necrosis factor in CFS.
    In MS, the magnitude of the elevation of tumor necrosis factor in cerebrospinal fluid mirrors the severity of the disease.(Finsen,2002)

    Second- Just as in CFS and Fibro, MS patients have severe autonomic dysfunction. The study, "Autonomic Dysfunction in Multiple Sclerosis: Correlation with Disease-Related Parameters" found that NINETY PERCENT of MS patients had symptoms related to autonomic dysfunction.

    Third- Just as in CFS and Fibro, MS patients lack the essential amino acids found in high protein foods: phenylalanine, tyrosine, tryptophan, valine, and isoleucine. Here is the study title."Plasma and cerebrospinal fluid tryptophan in multiple sclerosis and degenerative diseases" I will be posting information that shows these same amino acids are found lacking in CFS.

    Fourth- The lack of phenylalanine leads to the same lack of neurotransmitters as we see in CFS. Here is a quote from an article in US News & World Report on a study published online in "Brain". "Multiple sclerosis is associated with reduced levels of an important neurotransmitter, noradrenaline."
    The lack of phenylalanine would lead to reduced levels of dopamine and also a lack of both of the thyroid hormones. Also a lack of both of the adrenal hormones as was shown by the finding of reduced levels of noradrenaline.

    Fifth- Both CFS and MS have impaired glucose metabolism and mitochondrial dysfunction.
    "Cerebrospinal fluid evidence of increased extra-mitochondrial glucose metabolism implicates mitochondrial dysfunction in multiple sclerosis disease progression."

    Sixth- Both have elevated homocysteine.
    "Serum Vitamin B12, Folate, and Homocysteine Levels and their Association with Clinical and Electrophysiological Parameters in Multiple Sclerosis" Elevated homocysteine would lead to many vascular complications.

    Seventh-Both have B12 deficiency and spinal cord changes.
    "Multiple Sclerosis Associated with Vitamin B12 Deficiency"

    Eighth-Both have dysregulated nitric oxide.
    "Increased urinary nitric oxide metabolites in patients with multiple sclerosis correlates with early and relapsing disease."

    Ninth-Both have reduced levels of endorphins.
    "Decreased immunoreactive beta-endorphin in mononcuclear leucoctyes from patients with chronic fatigue syndrome"
    One of the drugs used to treat MS is low dose naltrexone which is an opiate antagonist.(I intend to show why a lack of protease would lead to a lack of endorphins)

    Tenth-Both lack Human Growth Hormone. (I will show how this is also associated with the inability to digest proteins).

    Eleventh-Both have low zinc levels. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16338007
    As the following information states, "Zinc is very much associated with high protein foods."
    http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/zinc-food-sources.html
    Low zinc would lead to the inability of many of our body's enzymes to function. I intend show how a lack of zinc would lead to another common occurrence in CFS, alcohol intolerance.

    Hormone imbalances are found in MS also, which would indicate a failure in the cytochrome P450 enzyme system. This study found about half of the patients tested showed decreased gonadotropin and estrogen. "Endocrinological findings in patients with multiple sclerosis" Here is some additional information on the chemical sensitivities found in MS.http://www.nhfw.info/multiple-sclerosis.html

    A lack of magnesium is found in both MS and CFS. Here is some information on this. http://www.nhfw.info/magnesium.html
    Magnesium is necessary for over 300 essential biochemical reactions in the body.

    Rich you stated, "All the signs and symptoms can be traced to lesions in the central nervous system and there is no evidence of systemic illness in the rest of the body." I could go on, but to say there is no evidence of systemic illness in MS is simply not the case.


  20. babysnake

    babysnake New Member

    Hello

    I want to say that after 12 years i cured and i tought it is a somwhow physical disease after years of searching on the internet and going to the doctors that shrug.

    A vey good lady doctor (in her 50's i think) diagnosed me with CFS/FM. And She convined me it is a neurological problem and all other symptoms are effects of that.

    The brain tissues that produce neurotransmitters - serotonin, dopamine, etc - (and maybe some of the receptors for them) are destroyed by long term stress because the brain is not built to handle very prolonged stress. (In ancient times if someone had bad luck so much they will die anyway so there was not needed for the human brain to adapt at long-term stress).

    Anyway she gave me a simple treatment - Exercise everyday if possible and eat foods rich in tryptofan and massage if possible but i skipped the massage.

    After 6 months of gym and really keeping at it (at least 2 times/week) i started to feel better and given up the anti-depressive herbs (astragalus and echinaceea) and the vitamins cause i didnt need them anymore. Then i did this year again a few months of gym and im like 90% cured.

    Exercise stimulated regenration of the neurotransmitters tissus i think. I dont know the exact cause but this must be.

    I feel great now , i want to go out with friend and go anywhere and i have good energy no pain, i want to meet girls etc.

    I'm normal again.

    I explaind in detail in my post in "What worked for me" thread this march 2012.

    I wish you all get better and you can trust what i say cause im the living proof of this.

    Christian.