Antibiotic has me in bad flare I think

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by xphile, Jun 16, 2008.

  1. xphile

    xphile New Member

    I got a sinus infection(like I do every June) because of the tree pollen and mold spores and went to Urgent Care. Doc said I had a double sinus infection and he put me on Cipro. I hadn't done enough homework evidently. Mom said "Cipro, oooh" She then told me she'd read here that the class of antibiotic it is can cause a bad flare and I do believe she was right. I am in an incredible flare. I feel like someone used a hammer on my knees and my balance is way off. I'm exhausted too, but having trouble sleeping and going from hot to cold. The sinuses are doing much better, but does anyone have any suggestions on what antibiotic I should use in the future? Thanks.

  2. ulala

    ulala New Member

    flare. Have you explored having Lyme disease Lyme disease usually comes with co-infections and one of them is Bartonella which is can be treated with Cipro. It's possible that you're suffering from a herxheimer reaction which means that the Cipro could be killing the bacteria and the die off causes the reactions.\\I've posted something for you to read. Keep us posted.

    Best wishes!

    The Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction (referred to as "Herx" often) is believed to be a reaction caused by organisms (bacteria) dying off and releasing toxins into the body faster than the body may comfortably handle it. It was originally observed in patients with syphilis who received mercury treatment [*]. 93% of patients with syphilis has Hughes Syndrome, it is estimated that 92% of CFS patients has Hughes Syndrome.

    Most CFIDSers will have moderate to severe herx effects from antibiotics that will usually have no effects on normal healthy individuals[83% in one R.A. study, 51.4% in Lyme Disease, 89% with B. recurrentis infection]. The reason for this may be the diminished blood flow system caused by the thickening of the blood commonly found with CFIDS patients. Alternatively, "it seemed to occur when injured or dead bacteria released their products into blood and tissues, provoking a sudden and exaggerated inflammatory response"[*] - thus the response may be connected to the specific organism being killed off. Many non-antibiotic treatments (Hale's breathing, glutathione - whey products ) are reported to also produce a herx effect -- whether it is bacteria die off or simply toxin release, the effect is the same: misery!

    Onset of Reaction
    Depending on illness and antibiotic: from 1-2 hrs to 10 days after antibiotics started

    The most common ones include:

    increased joint or muscle pain
    Heavy perspiration and night sweats
    Burning micturition
    Bone pain
    swollen glands
    constipation or diarrhea
    fever (usually low grade)
    hypotension (low blood pressure)
    Itching, hives and rash (sometimes mistaken for an allergic reaction - this must be an MD's call)
    heart palpitations, elevated heart rate, orthostatic
    Tachycardia are reported on

    Treatment (reduction)
    Treatment consists of two approaches: improving the blood flow to clear the toxins faster (see vascular constriction), or, neutralizing the toxins (or both)

    Probenecid (Dr. Jadin [*])
    Benadryl (antihistamine)
    Therma-Flu or equivalent
    Aspirin (Bromelain may increase it!)
    Meptazinol [*, *]
    Increase in blood thinning supplements
    Lemon/Olive Oil drink (may be done with water or Grape Juice)
    2 Tbsp Lemon Juice (Organic) or 1/2 lemon rind)
    1 Tbsp cold pressed Extra Virgin Olive Oil Water or juice ... stir
    Concord Grape Juice with flavoids (widens blood vessels)
    NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs),
    pain medication (see ibuprofen risks..)
    muscle relaxers,
    hot baths / hot tub
    steam (dry or hot) sauna
    a saltz bath: add 1 cup salt, 1 cup soda, 1 cup epsom salts, 1 cup aloe vera, to a
    hot bath, remain in and keep hot for about 1-1/2 hours all the while consuming
    about 2 quarts of warm water.
    Hale's breathing
    Control panic attacks, anxiety and worry (they constrict the blood vessels, worsening the effect).
    Differentiating between a Herxheimer, a flare and an allergic reaction to the drug
    "Laboratory tests can help differentiate between a worsening of disease (RA flare), a Herxheimer reaction to microbial toxins, and an allergic reaction to medication.

    WBC will elevate in a Herxheimer and lower in a flare.
    A Herxheimer will also exhibit a coincidental elevation of SED rate, gamma globulin and total globulin ,and a fall in serum albumin and hematocrit. Patients who exhibit this flare reaction accompanied by anemia, depression of serum albumin, elevated total globulin and gamma globulin are probably reflecting a more intense reaction pattern to anti-L substances than in hematologically mild cases.

    A marked increase in eosinophils (for instance about 30%) is an indication of an allergic reaction to the drug."

  3. NicolaG2

    NicolaG2 New Member

    Hi Adam, the flare up of symptoms accompanied by the fever and chills shouts herx to me. The previous poster gave you some very good info and remedies.

    This may be good news as it could be that you have a long standing infection that may be the cause of some of your ills and should be investigated.

    I have recently been diagnosed with lyme and cpn despite testing negative on labs. 4 days into a very low dose abx regime I had similar symptoms to you - chills, exhaustion, headache and don't talk to me about my knees! 3 weeks on, knees that had never bothered me before are bothering me all the time. I'm also getting lyme symptoms that I hadn't had before until starting abx - guess the abx are stirring up all the bacteria.

    I take moppers to help absorb the die off toxins and it does help with the symptoms. I take 1000mg Vit C regularly throughout the day and activated charcoal (lots) last thing at night before bed - this must be taken well away from anything else or it will absorb meds too.

    Suggest you also dig out the Cipro package insert and see what it says about side effects.

    I'm sorry you are having such a horrible time, but as I said earlier, this could be good news.
  4. cbs1234

    cbs1234 New Member

    I can almost guarantee you that you are not experiencing a flare or a herx. You are having an ADVERSE REACTION to cipro. Do a little research on this drug and other fluoroquinolones and you will find that they can cause PERMANENT tendon and joint damage, permanent nerve damage, etc. Go to\quinolones to ask questions on a forum devoted to these adverse reactions. Also, search the archives of this forum for levaquin and cipro content and you will find some good info.

    GET OFF THE DRUG IMMEDIATELY and you MIGHT have a chance of avoiding permanent damage. The adverse reactions to these drugs can be far worse than the CFS or FIBRO you have been experiencing.

    Take this warning seriously. Please don't listen to the folks talking about a herx and think that these symptoms are GOOD NEWS. This is really, really bad medical advice. You could suffer permanent damage if you don't throw these pills in the trash right now. Find a less potent antibiotic to treat your sinus infection.

    Good luck and I hope its not too late for you.
    [This Message was Edited on 06/17/2008]
  5. MamaDove

    MamaDove New Member

    Hi Adam,

    Had I not been through a severe adverse reaction to a quinolone, the advice and info regarding a herx would sound factual, plausible and reasonable...But in my case, the severe knee pain, balance problems to the point I couldn't even navigate to the bathroom, trouble sleeping, fluctuating from hot to cold was only the BEGINNING of the nightmare of suffering a quinolone reaction from which I have never fully recovered...These drugs can be helpful in many cases but it seems are given out more freely and therefore the numbers of those suffering permanent damage is on the rise...
    My experience was so severe that after 18 months I have now added SEVERE PTSD to the mix and MUST see someone in order to continue living...I would like you to avoid this and therefore I suggest ditching the Cipro even before calling your doc...Most people with severe reactions will tell you that their doctors were not knowledgeable regarding reactions and most, like mine, added more quinolones on top of it making the damage extremely unbearable and oh so permanent...
    I would suggest no more quinolones unless a dire emergency, and I mean dire, because I would have gladly taken death over living through this hell and noone but fellow sufferers care, esp. the docs, hospitals and the FDA...For Gods Sakes, I have read nurses advice on here that they have never witnessed an adverse reaction to a quinolone and they have given hundreds/thousands of doses...That's just hogwash!!! My nurse just stood there as I DIED right in front of her and my husband and she did nothing!!! My husband forced her to act/react and even after an investigation into my near demise she was coerced into stating that she didn't witness a reaction (Then why did she run to the nurses station, call my doctor and advised to add another drug to slow my heart down?)
    This class of drugs has done more damage than others as far as I can see and if only I wasn't given levaquin, my life would be liveable but each and every day I fight to keep my sanity after living through what that drug did to my mind, body and soul...It destroyed me!!!
    Those that say it is a flare or herx has never been there and those that have will tell you that you would welcome the worst of those together before an ADVERSE REACTION to a QUINOLONE...
    Google 'adverse reaction quinolone' and the information is mind-boggling and very real!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The ones that say those people researched the drug prior and therefore had symptoms or it's all in their heads and likely DRUG reps or FDA pushers that line their pockets with the profits of these killers...
    Again, while some have felt they have been 'saved' by them, others like me have been killed by them...I just happen to still be floating around but trust me when I say...Levaquin Killed Me!!!
    Cipro was 'invented' and started being pushed in the military for anthrax exposure...ask the soldiers if they could do it all over again, would they take it? The answer likely is NO!!!
    Please don't be a victim, Adam...I was, and now after 18 months I call myself a 'survivor'...Please stop taking this immediately and look into something else if need be...And make absolutely sure the next drug your doc gives you isn't levaquin, we may not hear from you again...
    This is not to scare you or anyone else from using any FDA approved drugs or anything else for that matter...This is to educate you and warn you of what cbs1234, myself and joeb would all clearly see as an ADVERSE REACTION...
    I hope you see this and soon...
    To ulala, that info you provided was very informative BUT I suggest that Adam get all the facts before deciding that it is a flare or a herx, both of which he would live with, the reaction he may not...Please understand where I am coming from...Hell and Back again and I wouldn't wish any of it on my worst enemy...
    Must go now, as I usually say in my posts regarding these drugs, my typing is limited due to tendon damage and damaged brain cells due to Levaquin...
    Good Luck Adam, let us know how you are doing please...
  6. MamaDove

    MamaDove New Member

    If you have the time (and energy) use the search button above under TITLE and Levaquin or Cipro...Lots of previous posts that may give you a better sense of why cbs1234 and I are concerned...

  7. Rafiki

    Rafiki New Member

    I agree that the most likely cause of your symptoms is not a flare or a herx but a potentially very serious reaction to this class of abx.

    Please research and avoid this entire class of abx. in future. The damage can be permanent and is completely avoidable.

    There are many other useful antibiotics which can be used according to the bacteria you are fighting. If possible, bacteria should be cultured before abx are prescribed. If that is not possible there are other "broad spectrum" antibiotics which are not as dangerous as the fluoroquinolones (sp?). Cipro really should be used only in cases of serious infections which are resistant to other abx.

    Never, ever assume a reaction to abx is a Herxheimer reaction.

    Peace out,
  8. zenouchy

    zenouchy Member

    I strongly urge you to contact your doctor ASAP! Either a doctor with whom you already have an established relationship (primary care doc, internal medicine, etc) or if not, contact a doctor at urgent care.

    No one here can advise you completely because we don't know your medical history; the body is complex, and everyone is so different. HOWEVER, any time you have a bad reaction to a medication, especially one as bad as yours, you need to go off of it IMMEDIATELY because you can't risk that the drug is harming you and the fact that taking more of it can cause further harm.

    That's why you need to contact your doctor quickly. He/she needs to tell you what to do next and will advise you if you need different medication or any at all.

    (P.S. Thanks for your kind words on Tim Russert. :) )

    Hope you feel much better. Please let us know what happens.


    [This Message was Edited on 06/17/2008]
  9. frosty77

    frosty77 New Member

    Definitely check with your doctor. I did a round of Cipro recently and had no reactions and felt much better. but, that class of antibiotics can cause bad reactions in some, so definitely check it out.
  10. cbs1234

    cbs1234 New Member

    Most docs are not fully educated on the potential side effects of cipro and the other fluoroquinolones (and most othre drugs for that matter). The problems you are encountering are listed as adverse reactions by the manufacturer, the FDA, the CDC, etc, etc.

    Insist on a different antibiotic outside of the fluoroquinolone class regardless of what the doc says. Doc are not gods and do not have all the answers (if they did, none of us would be on this forum).

    You are risking serious, long term health problems by continuing to take this drug while experiencing side effects that are plainly listed by the manufacturer in its package insert and in the physicians desk reference. Doctors that deny these side effects when they are plainly listed in the warnings are just plain stupid!
  11. MamaDove

    MamaDove New Member

    Hope you see this soon Adam...

    Thinking of you~MamaDove

    PS. I am concerned now about the FLUORIDE in this drug in regard to your epilepsy and meds you usually take...My hubby has a seizure disorder and we have linked fluoride as an issue for his condition...I also am linking fluoride poisoning as the 'causal link' to ALL of my conditions, esp. my internal bleeding and inflammation...I believe that is why Levaquin almost did me in...
  12. LuvQuilting

    LuvQuilting New Member

    I need to keep this for future reference.
  13. xphile

    xphile New Member

    for your posts and concern. I couldn't get hold of my Urgent Care doc, but to err on the side of caution I threw away the rest of the Cipro. If I get anthrax, god forbid, I may reconsider taking it, but as of last night my muscles hurt too badly to vacuum before I went to bed. I was totally exhausted and felt trashed! I'm going to a follow-up appt. tomorrow at Urgent Care and I'll just leave well enough alone. I remember reading the pamphlet from my drug store and it said Cipro could cause tendon rupture(not something I'm willing to risk) My arms and legs DID feel like they had lead weights on them. Thanks for the info. I'm OK for now; thanks for your concern! God bless you all.

  14. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    Many of us consider Cipro a very dangerous drug with serious potential side effects. It was never meant to be used to treat run-of-the-mill infections. It was developed for Anthrax and resistant strains of bacteria in AIDS patients. Like with so many drugs, the pharma reps couldn't wait to get it into the hands of docs and the docs could wait to prescribe it.

    At least four percent of the population is allergic to certain types of fluoride. The complete name of this class of drugs is fluoroquinolones. They contain fluoride. My doc prescribed it and I almost ended up in the ER with labored breathing.

    Those of us with these illnesses often have tendons which are in very bad shape. Cipro is not a risk we should be taking unless we are in a life-threatening situation.

    If it were me, I'd call your regular doc and ask about how to treat the sinus infection. Taking only part of an ABX course can produce resistant strains of bacteria and you may need to switch to another drug to get rid of the bacteria.

    Sinus infections aren't always caused by bacteria; some are fungal in nature. Colloidal silver is good for addressing all kinds of infections. Again, it's good to discuss options with your doc. A sinus infection should not be left untreated as it is so close to the brain. Good luck to you.

    Love, Mikie
  15. cbs1234

    cbs1234 New Member

    I hope you feel better soon.