Anyone Here Know About NEURAL THERAPY???

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by pat460, May 26, 2007.

  1. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    I was reading about Neural Therapy for pain and just wondered if anyone on the board has tried it? It originated in Germany and has been around since the early 1900's I believe. It involves injecting Procaine (AKA Novocain) into scars, nerves of the autonomic nervous system, and other locations too numerous for me to list. Trigger Point Injections is one form of it. Since we have several members who live or have lived in Germany, I thought maybe some of you might have encountered it. I have found a physician who does this so I'm very interested. Pain relief without pain meds or with a lower amount of them would be wonderful. Any comments or experiences related to this therapy would be welcomed.

    Thanks, Pat
  2. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    Hope someone knows....
  3. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Pat,

    I tried neural therapy about five years ago for headaches. Was given a series of shots at the base of my skull, at the base of my nose, etc.

    Found them to be painful and of limited value for reducing my headache pain. I also noticed that every time he did a shot, I would feel a rush of saliva inside my mouth. My first thought was that my body was instinctively trying to dilute something in my body.

    I had heard of many people being helped by this and was disappointed by my results. I then ran across the following story shortly after. I'll just post the first four paragraphs and you can followup with it if you like at

    [ Robin’s Report

    In 1997, I was a healthy, active, forty-one year old woman. I ate extremely well, and was fit and trim. I worked out at a local gym three times a week, and mountain hiked several miles every weekend, weather permitting. This had been my routine for years. I had had all of my amalgams removed ten years earlier. In 1996 I had a “DMPS challenge test” as part of a routine physical exam. The test results showed a very low mercury level … 1.8.

    In May of 1997 while stopped to make a turn, my car was rear-ended and I suffered a severe whiplash. As a result of this injury, I suffered migraine headaches for which I received physical therapy for five months. The pain persisted and I sought medical help.

    The doctor recommended “neural therapy” – a series of injections of procaine – to treat the migraines. He injected procaine into my head, face, neck and jaw. After two sessions of this therapy, however, I began suffering from severe sinus congestion and had great difficulty swallowing. He looked at my throat and told me I had a “classic scarlet ring” around it, and that I had mercury poisoning. When I asked where the mercury could have come from, he said that it was well documented that procaine injections such as the ones he had been giving me would cause the gum tissue to release the mercury sequestered there into the body. The procaine had caused the tissue to dump large quantities of mercury into my body.

    I was dumbfounded. I asked him why he had given me procaine if he knew it would induce mercury poisoning. I was sick enough already. He didn’t miss a beat, and told me not to worry. He said that he had something he’d been using that would safely pull the mercury all out and that I’d be better than before. I told him that I really didn’t have much choice at this point, did I? I was miserable, and much sicker than when I had first started seeing him. I needed help. This was my total introduction to mercury poisoning. ]

    Pat, I'm not posting this to discourage you in any way from looking at this therapy. Though it wasn't something I felt I should pursue further, I don't necessarily feel that this is the case for everybody. For people that may have high levels of mercury however, it could be problematic.

    Regards, Wayne

    P.S. I might mention that I don't feel that my doctor was well-traind in this procedure and probably did not do it very often.

    It would probably be best to seek out somebody who had in-depth knowledge of this and made it a specialty in their practice.[This Message was Edited on 05/26/2007]
  4. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Pat,

    I've had this done about a dozen times over the past eight years or so. My doctor seems extremely good at it, but it may not be what you're looking for even if you find someone good.

    I've found it helpful for the following:

    * Repairing my head injury. I believe it was crucial in totally relieving the extreme anxiety stemming from my injury, and in reducing the mood swings that also resulted from it. My hope is that continuing with them will give me further permanent benefit with regard to my moderate manic-depression as well as whatever cognitive problems I still have as a result of the injury. (It's hard to tell since CFS causes cognitive problems too.)

    * Short-term reduction of the "buzzy" feeling that I get when I am feeling hyper. (He does maybe 50 tiny injections to my head on those occasions.)

    * Short-term relief of a sort of congested depression I get on occasion. When this happens, I get a bunch of knots (some quite buried) from my breastbone down my meridian. The neural therapy opens up the area. (I'm pretty sure the knots he hits are nerve ending bundles and that the results I get are a result of energy moving more freely. The spots that have an effect are the ones targeted in order to kill people using karate etc.) Certain knots/nerve bundles in my head/shoulders (especially behind my ears) benefit a lot from being hit too.

    * Detox resulting in less stiffness. I tend to think this is a contributor to why I experience little or no fibro or muscle pain (although my pain was not very great to begin with). The pattern is generally that my mucles get much _more_ stiff for a few days after the treatment. (I use a lot of epsom salt/baking soda baths on the advice of my doctor at that time.) After a few days, the stiffness goes away and they feel considerably looser. The fact that the stiffness was _horrible_ at the time when I was doing the methylation protocol (when I presumably had a lot of toxins needing to be released in my body) suggests to me further that toxin release is what helps me here. (The stiffness was unprecdented for me--I could barely walk. This lasted for about three days, then faded away completely.) Not everyone believes that their pain is due to toxins, and it's possible that many people's fibro has nothing to do with toxins. I'm pretty sure the causal effect for me is pretty strong though.

    * My doctor believes that neural therapy can increase organ strength, although I am not sure about that. My adrenal function increased from horrible to normal over a number of years, but i don't know how much of that to attribute to this treatment.

    In a way, I think of this as "super-acupuncture." I've never gotten much benefit at all from regular acupuncture, but this is a whole different story.

    A couple of suggestions:

    * I wouldn't do this if I didn't trust the doctor. I have a really good relationship with my doctor, but it still took me a while to give it a try. I think it could be really bad if done by someone who hasn't at least studied it a lot. (My doctor went to Germany to learn it from experienced practitioners there.)

    * If you get scars shot, be sure to get _all_ your scars shot. This includes things like tonsils and wisdom teeth (if you've had them removed). Once we neglected to shoot my wisdom teeth, and I went into a sort of "trauma-coma" where I spent most of my time crying and feeling absolutely miserable. After two weeks of this, I had to drive from Chicago to Indpls. to get it re-done, after which I felt perfectly fine. Again, it's my belief that this is a very strong treatment that needs to be done right.

    It's possible that this has positive effects for fibro patients if just the major trigger points are shot. Maybe this would require a less talented and knowledgeable practitioner. I don't know.

    Best, Lisa

    [This Message was Edited on 05/26/2007]
  5. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Wayne,

    So did your mercury problem get resolved?

    This is consistent with my experience of neural therapy releasing toxins, of course.

    On the other hand, as some methylation experiences on this board have demonstrated, too-fast toxin release can be quite traumatic.

    Maybe one reason that my results have been so much better than yours is because my treatments have been relatively infrequent (at most twice a year)???

    Best, Lisa
  6. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    I really appreciate all the info and will definitely research this much much more than I had intended. This sounds like a very powerful treatment which could be dangerous if not done by an extremely knowledgeable physician. The doctor(and his partner) I was thinking of seeing is supposed to be well versed in this but, I will check them both out a lot more since I've read your posts.

    Actually I was thinking of trying this for my back pain, not the fibro. I've had 2 surgeries to remove ependymoma tumors from the lumbar portion of my spinal canal. They removed a lot of bone, but didn't replace it with anything to stabilize the spine so I've developed scoliosis. I also have arthritis, osteoporosis, a bulging disc, and at the bottom of my spine I have degenerative disc disease. So my back pain has been with me since I was 18 and has now gotten excruciating. Pain meds. barely touch it anymore. The doctor may not even think Neural Therapy is right for me and I hate to sound like a nut case but, I'm just really tired of fighting the pain. Then of course there's the all over body pain of fibro on top of it. I've been desperately searching for some hope.


    P.S. Lisa; I could handle injections in all my scars (there are many) and it might even feel like the relief of scratching an itch as far as my back goes because of the pain but, my tonsil scars? Now that would HURT!
  7. desertlass

    desertlass New Member

    Hi, Pat!

    How are you, dear? I wrote this for you since I know you like fiction and might appreciate my analogy. I hope others will at least be entertained by it, if they don't find it helpful. :)

    I don't have any experience with neural therapy, but I have had lots of needles in me over the years for different reasons. I have heard some theorize that its not the substance that is injected that helps as much as the fact that the area is simply being needled.

    The tidbit I thought some of you might find interesting is when I went for accupuncture for my back injury, the chiro saw a large scar on my leg from where I'd had a birthmark removed. He said that he wanted at some point to treat that, because in accupuncture they call it "surrounding the dragon". That sounded kind of fanciful at the time, but it has given me more to consider as I witness how various methodologies approach pain and illness.

    One thing I think I should add is that in Eastern mythologies/religions, a dragon is not always a bad thing, nor is a serpent. The dragon is the serpent-like creature, which is a symbol of the life impulse because it sheds its skin (rebirth), and the tongue flicker is the fire. It would seem that the neuron would be, in the body, the impulse of life.

    I suppose that all of the places where we have had some sort of injury, whether accidental or intentional, such as surgery, the area absolutely must contract (muscle guarding in Physical Therapy terminology) in order to protect it. If some sort of therapy isn't done to help that area stop its contraction or constriction or whatever, afterward then the place can potentially turn into a real gnarly mess of bound up nerves, chemical blocks, cellular waste, toxins, etc, depending upon the severity of the initial injury and successful healing.

    The impulse of life (the neuron) would be caught within all that and not able to send or receive its messengers. It's seems like the dragon is not able to hear "it's okay to come out now!" and all communication on a cellular level is shut down by his refusal to leave his fortress and whatever it is he's guarding.

    These various approaches, from gentlest (massage therapy, yoga) to more forceful (manipulations, needling) might be ways of surrounding the dragon so that he will stop angrily clinging to life but will stretch out, move, and be a conduit once again.

    Fanciful me,
  8. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Pat,

    If you've got a doctor with a steady hand, the tonsils should not be any big deal. I've never had a problem.

    Again, I would not advise getting all those other scars shot if you don't do the tonsils.

    Best, Lisa
  9. desertlass

    desertlass New Member

    Can you all help me understand the procaine/mercury post that Wayne copied.

    It's interesting for the mercury experience alone, whether or not the neural therapy helped her or not.

    I don't get how she could have had a challenge test, which is designed to force the mercury out, (or am I wrong about this?) and it comes up low in her urine.

    But with procaine, a nerve numbing agent, it forces the mercury (that wasn't even thought to be there) out to such a degree that she shows a phsyically classic sign-- a ring around her throat-- I'm assuming this is INside her throat, not outside. Is there such a thing as this "classic sign" for mercury? Do autistic children have this?

    Do you all think that it was the Procaine or the needling of the area that forces out the mercury?

    Sorry if I seem like I'm a "challenge test" of a different sort.

    Any thoughts?
  10. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    I did enjoy your entertaining analogy very much! So thank you! It actually made a lot of sense to me. While researching Neural Therapy I came across a story similar to Lisa's. A woman was treated with Neural Therapy for "frozen shoulder". The injections into her shoulder didn't help her problem but caused severe itching on her leg where she had a scar from a previous surgery. They injected the leg scar and the shoulder got better. The explanation was similar to your analogy with the guarding dragon. I'm sure I can't do it justice, but the explanation can be found if you google Neural Therapy and go to the drkaslow site. Though similar, your explanation was much more entertaining.

    You are a true gem and one of the people who keep me coming back to the board even when the happenings here get aggravating. So Thank you much and hope you're feeling full of vim and vigor these days!

  11. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Lisette,


    If Wayne doesn't answer or know, maybe ask Rich van K whether people can have mercury loads even if they don't come out in the challenge test?

    I'd like to know that too, and don't recall reading it in the Puzzle book or elsewhere.

    Best, Lisa
  12. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    If you go to the site Wayne mentioned, it has more info. I don't really know the answer to your question as I don't know anything about the challenge test or mercury toxicity. The site this story came from is challenging the validity of that test I believe. I'm going there now to read more as it's pretty interesting.


    Went there and read a little. Her story doesn't make sense to me either. If she was healthy, why even bother to have the challenge test in the first place? She had her fillings removed but wasn't physically ill. The DMPS test is supposed to remove the mercury isn't it? Sorry, guess I'm no help desertlass. Maybe Wayne can help more.
    [This Message was Edited on 05/26/2007]
  13. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Pat, Liz and Lisa,

    I guess the main reason I posted “Robin’s story” was because of the mercury factor and how procaine injections are supposed to be well known for releasing “sequestered” mercury. I haven’t researched this a lot, but it was a cautionary story I remembered and felt I should pass it along.

    I really don’t know why mercury would not be released when she did the DMPS challenge test, but would be released when getting the procaine injections. One possibility might be that the procaine injections were done very close to the gum tissue that was sequestering the mercury.

    I actually tend to be a bit skeptical about these types of tests and just how accurate they truly are. It confuses me a bit when Rich Carson describes how a DMPS challenge test made him quite sick for a month or so, but then says at the end of his detoxification protocol post that an appropriate “challenge” test is imperative. I’m not sure what an appropriate challenge test would be.

    Pat, regarding your wondering about the DMPS challenge test being able to remove mercury. My understanding is that the test is supposed to give an indication of how much mercury (and/or other heavy metals) is in the body. If the test shows high levels, then that indicates that a mercury detox program should be considered to lower these levels.

    My understanding is that this is what Rich Carson did. Once he got the test results, he started on a major detoxification program and continues it to this day. It can take a long time (sometimes years) to detoxify these heavy metals.

    On the topic of whether it was the procaine or the “needling” that actually brought results, I think that’s a good question. I’ve heard that some practitioners use ingredients other than procaine. Saline solutions come to mind at the moment. It’s possible they both have effects. Lisa, was wondering if your therapist used procaine or something different.

    Pat, on why Robin in the story would have her amalgams removed even though she wasn’t sick. I have read several books on amalgam fillings toxicity, and found many examples of sick people improving their health. I also read stories about healthy people wanting to get rid of a known toxicity before it began to cause them serious health problems. Amazing stories of how people who considered themselves healthy all of a sudden started experiencing much better energy levels and feelings of well being.

    Liz, on your question of whether a “classic scarlet ring” is a sign for mercury poisoning. I don’t know the answer to that one. I did read many years ago however that a health practitioner who saw a number of patients with CFS noticed that many of them had what he called a “crimson arc” across the back of their throats. When I mentioned it to the nurse practitioner I was seeing, she took a look and there it was.

    I never determined what it was, but am thinking now that it could have been a sign of chronic mercury poisoning. I still get minor sore throat type feelings that I felt were associated with this arc, but not to the degree that I used to.

    I suspect part of the reason for this improvement is because I have removed all my amalgams and metal crowns which has allowed me to significantly reduce my mercury and nickel (from metal crowns) loads. I’m feeling I will likely release a lot more when I get rolling full speed on the methylation block cycle protocol. For this reason, I plan to take it fairly slowly. Better safe than sorry when dealing with these dangerous toxicities.

    There’s a couple more therapies I want to touch on regarding scar tissue and spinal disk pain, but will save that for tomorrow or another time.

    Hope some of this helps. Enjoyed visiting with ya’all tonight.

    Wayne :)
    [This Message was Edited on 05/26/2007]
  14. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Wayne,

    My doctor uses procaine (novacaine) for the injections.

    He occasionally has added a homeopathic preparation to them, but I'm not sure what it was supposed to do.

    Best, Lisa
  15. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    Just to clarify; Did you mean that having the injections brought out fibromyalgia symptoms, including pain or only pain, that you didn't have before you got them? Did you have any lasting benefits? How many times did you try the injections? Do you feel overall that this treatment made you worse?

    Sorry for all the questions but, I'm truly interested in getting ALL facts before I decide whether or not to pursue this therapy.


    P.S. Thanks for the tip about not driving. I'll definitely try to remember that.
    [This Message was Edited on 05/27/2007]
  16. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    Thanks for clearing everything up. Sometimes I'm a little slow on the draw these days.

    I guess it would be best to get tested for Mercury before attempting Neural Therapy. According to the site where you found Robin's Story, the DMPS Challenge Test isn't accurate so maybe I can ask the doc if he knows of a more reliable way. What do you think?

    But on the same note, didn't I read somewhere that Rich Carson went to the Great Smokies Medical Center for the challenge test? If so, is it the one in Asheville, NC do you think? That's where I was going to check on the Neural Therapy. Kinda makes you go hmmm...

    I was looking into Prolotherapy before. These two therapies are very similar, with the exception of what they inject, unless I'm mistaken?

    I would be very interested in any other treatments concerning back pain when you feel like posting again. I too really enjoyed last night with you and the girls. lol! That sounded a little funny but you know what I mean.

    Thanks again. Hope you're feeling your Wheaties today and any pain stays in la la land! Pat
  17. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Pat,

    Wanted to mention that I believe Dietrich Klinghardt is one of the foremost proponents of neural therapy in this country.

    If you check out his website, there should be a lot of information there for you. In addition, he has a lot of information on many other topics that a lot of us are interested in, including treatment of lyme.

    See ya! :)

  18. chrissy12

    chrissy12 New Member

    About 2 years ago, I did neural therapy for many months. I went once a week, sometimes twice, but I couldn't afford that, so then every other week. It would give my body relief for a few days, but it never held.

    I found short term relief, but not long term. I have also done prolo therapy where they put a long needle down where the problem is. I had my chest area done because of the pain in it and later my ankles. I found it to be more long lasting. I believe it is lindocaine and some kind of B vitamins. The premise is that it goes to the source of the problem and starts healing the tissues from within.

    My main problem is CFS, viral component and mycoplasma, so this didn't bring down any of my numbers. If I had lots of money, I might try it again.
    [This Message was Edited on 07/19/2009]