Atlas treatment- wayne question for or input from others

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia and ME & Chronic Fatigue Syndrome' started by herbqueen, Apr 26, 2010.

  1. herbqueen

    herbqueen New Member

    Hi Wayne I'm in a really bad spot now-can't believe how far I degraded in one year and from a few drugs I took in November/december.

    Looking for anything to help now-wondering about Atlas Treatment- given I have had 2 whiplas accidents and neck/head/brain is weak point for me and now have major CNS issues.

    Do you know difference thoughts on atlas orthogonal versus the type of treatment this doctor you recommended for me does? Montel williams is big on atlas orthogonal and she does something else?


    Hi Herbqueen,

    Here's some info. for an AP practitioner in VT:

    Christine Bemish
    156 Elm Street, #3
    Montpelier, VT 05602

    802-274-1130
    802-223-2300
    cbeme@earthlink.net

    Good luck if you decide to give this a try.

    Best, Wayne

    [This Message was Edited on 01/28/2009]
  2. herbqueen

    herbqueen New Member

    she does Atlas profilax
  3. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Herbqueen,

    I'm sorry to hear you're going through such a difficult time. I hope you can find something that will help you at least halt this decline you're experiencing. Hopefully, you can find something to reverse it. Regarding Atlas Profilax (also known as AtlasPROfilax): It is something quite different from orthogonal chiropractic. I myself had regular orthogonal chiropractic therapy for many years. I found it quite helpful, and relieved a lot of my symptoms.

    Orthogonal Chiropractic is just one of about 10 technques that fall under the umbrella of "upper cervical chiropractic". As far as I know, they are all quite gentle, and focus almost entirely on the upper cervical area, which I think would be about the top 3-4 vertabrae. Upper cervical Chiropractors generally take x-rays, and do some very precise mapping of your upper cervical area. They then choose an adjustment that is perfectly suited to an individual's unique situation. My own DC told me there are literally over a million different adjustments that might be chosen.

    Atlas Profilax is VERY different from either regular chiropractic or upper cervical chiropractic. Instead of "tweaking" the upper cervical vertebrae, they actually "reposition" the atlas only. I recently visited with a chiropractor in the Twin Cities who has made Atlas Profilax his primary focus of care. He shared with me some of his frustration of going to ongoing Chiropractic education. He says he sometimes has to restrain himself from standing up and telling the instructors they've got it all wrong!

    If I remember correctly, he says the chiropractic profession actually confuses the atlas with the axis, which is the SECOND cervical vertebra. So they never really get to the core of so many people's problems, which is the atlas being out of alignment. Very briefly, the atlas is actually somewhat "bowl-shaped" and extends out to behind both ears. The skull then sits on top of this bowl. I've heard that moving the atlas might be somewhat similar to moving a boulder. It doesn't normally move easily, but once repostioned in its proper alignment, doesn't move out of alignment easily either.

    Normally, there are pins that keep the atlas "locked" into place. When the atlas is "repositioned" by the Atlas Profilax technique, it's done so in a way so that the pins can keep it in place. Thus, Atlas Profilax is normally a one-time adjustment. I would compare this to all upper cervical techniques which do not "lock" the atlas into its proper position, and requires ongoing care, and which can be quite expensive. (The one-time cost for Atlas Profilax is generally $250; never any extra charge for a followup recheck or additional care).

    I could probably write for several hours about any number of aspects of Atlas Profilax, and how it has helped me immensely. That said, it did not "cure" my ME/CFS, nor did I expect it to. But it did greatly relieve many symptoms I experience, including vertigo, pressure in head, lots of neck pain and chronic headaches for 40 years, etc.; it also improved my digestion (and thus my immune system) in a major way, improved my posture, my balance, and much more. I've posted extensively on this board on the benefits I've experienced.

    For anybody who's interested, the chiropractor in the Twin Cities who does Atlas Profilax is Dr. Brian Elijah. He is apparently one of only three chiropractors in the world who do the AP. The several hundred other AP practitioners, mostly in Europe, work through their own specialty, oftentimes as an ND or massage therapist. My own hope is the the Chiropractic profession would embrace Atlas Profilax in a major way, which would make it more readily accessible to the general public.

    Good luck Herbqueen with whatever steps you choose to take next. I think it's good that you're considering Atlas Profilax. My own perspective is that it is a very good starting point for trying to improves one's health. For many people, I believe it has the potential to relieve chronic and often enormous stress from the body (and especially cranial nerves). It did for me.

    All the Best, Wayne[This Message was Edited on 04/26/2010]
  4. herbqueen

    herbqueen New Member

    Thank you wayne! Now if the practioner were only a little bit closer to me given how ill I am!But maybe I can work it out- looking at everything now. Wish I could go back and in time and done this a year ago ... oh well one day at at time.
  5. sascha

    sascha Member

    the first held for a short time- i experienced relief (i have chronic neck problems). then i went to someone else and had it re-done. no effect whatsoever. but that's me- maybe it could help you- hope so Sascha
  6. herbqueen

    herbqueen New Member

    Scheduled atlas app't on drive down to see big name LLMD -(still terrified of putting anything more in my body given how sensitive I am and now so neurolgoically sick from a few drugs in november)-

    i hope the atlas adjustment helps. I desperately need relief to the nerve pain and shaking in brain, weak neck, total insomia, eye pain, numb and weak body etc etc etc.

    Neuro's still say no lesions/not MS-

    I can't believe how far I fell in 1 year---can I wake up from this? Now month 6 of agony. I don't know how I can bear this. I'm too young for this.
  7. simonedb

    simonedb Member

    herbqueen
    so sorry to hear of your plight. I don't know how old you are but I was 29 when I got the full affliction of this junk. I was very focused on the neck problem part of it at first and regular chiropractic is what seemed to set if off after I tried that following being hosed from a surgery--later on I would learn just how hard anesthesia and the whole process of surgery itself is on a person, let alone than getting injured from high velocity chiro neck adjustments. Just a month before all that went down I was jogging, dancing and lifting weights daily, although probs had begun to get set in motion I think from trying prozac for a little anxiety as it was the new wonder drug that year and I was intrigued, I think it screwed up my brain chemistry. Anyway ever since then its been like 20 years of trying to figure out what went wrong and what to do about it. The first couple years I did a lot of aggressive stuff to the spine as I thought that was the main problem,did old school chiro, rolfing which hurt me more & then atlas orthogony for a couple years helped make my neck feel more stable but it eventually also caused too much aftermath pain so had to quit and it was no cure but it also got rid of daily headaches at that time. I graduated to doing cranial sacral and myofascial body work and that has been enough since '93 to keep my neck in enough alignment to not drive me crazy, however I dont like doing that stuff anymore either as it also causes aftermath pain, fortunately I don't feel the need to do it as much the last 9 years.

    Since you are so sensitive it might be safer to do stuff like the cranial sacral and myofascial body work, its really gentle, and for me it was as powerful and helpful for subluxation as atlas orthogony. Bizarrely even cranial sacral and mysofascial work can cause a bad pain flare for like a month if its a really powerful session, usually its only a week, and then afterwards I feel better than before I did it.

    What has made me view the whole spinal/atlas, chiari connection differently is having seen Dr Cheney oncein '08 and he explained the probable viral component to cfs, even those folks with neck and chiari problems he said was probably inflammation in the brain and upper spine due to the virus flaring, thats why it waxes and wanes, and thus thats why spinal surgery can fail or make things worse in folks where there is an unknown true viral/infectious component.
    I like the idea of trying to treat virus/ infection better than I do some aggressive physical manual labor, it makes more sense to me. And I have been surprised to find that if sometimes I wait, that the spinal related symptoms can turn around on their own,even when I have felt like it was way over the top subluxation. In the 90s I never waited long enough to find that out, would run to manual therapy as would be freaked out by "subluxation" symptoms, but then there is always the painful side effect from getting any of those treatments. If you aren't merely a spinal problem patient, but have some weird cfs fm type problem, be careful, is what I guess I am trying to say, as it not just pure logistics of getting the spine and atlas into the right place, there can be a lot of suffering with that and its not curative, I am not saying it isnt a good idea to try to find a way to address those thing manually too, carefully, but that perhaps also trying other ways to bring down inflammation and treating the viral/infectious possible agents may also help a flare remit. 6 months is a long time, I know, I have been there, but its possible over time you won't have as long of flares and be careful not to aggravate your body worse with too physical/manual of an approach. I did some damage back in the day out of desperation before I realized what I was dealing with, I just thought it was black and white if bone x is slightly outta place then we just gotta put it back in the right spot and then I will be fine.......yea right, not if ya have true cfs/me. The chemically sensitive part of your situation is what worries me for you. Just a regular straight up spinal problem patient wouldnt have that most likely, but its possible.

    Rich V had rec'd molybdenum for chemical flares and charcoal, those things help me sometimes as does benadryl, I started out taking like a fraction of a mg of benadryl 4 years ago could hardly tolerate a drop of kid's dye free syrup, but now I can take 10-25 mg at bedtime if need to dont like to as get sort of hungover from it, but it can help when in a flare for chem sensitivity and needing to sleep and bringing down inflammation. Also I hate to rec it, but if you are really desperate treating the pain is so important, a mild narcotic might be needed for awhile, i can't tolerate tramadol but some cfs/fm folks can, or vicodan or darvon might help relieve some of your suffering.
    Keep us posted good luck, just my 2 cents.
    -simone
    [This Message was Edited on 05/01/2010]
  8. herbqueen

    herbqueen New Member

    thank you simon- yes I also when to a high velocity chiro in 1998 with onset of fibro in my neck- that's when I stopped sleeping totallyand pain spread to rest of my body!

    My issues now are all aggressive neurodegen MS/Lyme type. My pain is not muscle pain but angst in the nerves in neck and brain (hard to describe but unbearable)-it is a sick irritated exposed nerve wire feeling--and the weak neck-it's like my entire body/limbs /neck has that weak in the knees feeling all the time-plus I am really numb mostly everywhere now-plus I have optic neuritis with vision loss which is normally classic MS. My problem is systemic- affects myentire body- eyes, throat, speaking, muscle strenght ,nervous system on overdrive, burning,insomnia nerves , brain etc etc. If I had lesions they would have quickly diagnosed me with MS (nost of this all within the last 5 months crash/decline from drugs) The lyne folks tell me it was a herx and I was supposed to not let up on drugs-but the head stuff was totally not bearable-not sure how I oculd do that and I wasn't treating lyme a the time I was doing dr mcandless fungal treatmetn (famous autism doc) of flagyl/difluan. I'm now scard I have some serious damage going onto thenervous system andit is not subsiding.

    Since so many of my problems are in my nervous system and it all begain in my neck/head-I was thinking atlas profil might help.. the technique they use is massage and vibrator type of instrument- I was assured it was very gentle. I hope so! You're right I don' tneed to add insult to injury.

    I had my first day type of surgery (uterine polyp) last august (never had any surgery since 5 years old tonsils)-funny thing I slept so well that night better than I had in decades (prob anesthesia left over) and the next day I felt better than I had in 12 years-clear headed strong, positive /happy- next day things went back to normal and then I stared to decline by the end of August. I also noticed in 2008 when I had my amalgms removed that I would feel stronger for 2 weeks or so following each removal.

    Strange huh? I wonder if I need some inflammation or something to distract my body/autoimmune or boost my immune system? Was thinking maybe I should try some bee sting therapy?which is also supposed to be good for lyme?I have a friend that's beekeeper.

    Right now I'm working with a classical homoeopath and also David Dalton -teasel flower essence treatment - I've talked to a couple of people that had some good results with each and were seriously ill with neuro lyme- I know it's a stretch. But so terrifed of abx treatment I'm not sure what to do to stop the progression of this disease. Maybe stem cell treatment in India with Dr. Geeta Schroff? These are the many desperate thoughts going through my head.

    I'm only 48 and have kids and family to care for. I long for the days of fibro.......this is a whole new ball game and very terrifying to lose muscle control and mobility. All I want is a strong body and a clear mind. Is that too much to ask for? Or just some normal illness to deal with. I'm trying to stay positive but terrified of direction this is headed.

    My GP finally tested me for a bunch of stuff at my request-- he shoudl have done it along time ago- I tested positive for active EBV ( I have no fatigue or swollen glands)-and positive for old infection but not active/ IGG for cpn, CMV, HHV6 ( i think this was active too)mycoplasma etc. Oh also about have something wrong with my b12- it wasn't levels something else- he recommended b12methyl shots. I"ll have to post a question on that to see if anyone understand it. Rich probably does.

  9. herbqueen

    herbqueen New Member

    Sorry for bad typing- My numb hands have coordination issues now with typing. I am a mess!
  10. simonedb

    simonedb Member

    sorry, to hear, I have been thru some really scary times related to neck so I think I know a little bit of what you are going thru, its frightening, I mean putting up with fluish pain and low energy all the time is bad enough,but also feeling like something is structurally wrong to me has been really disturbring and limiting, its like the universe is not playing with this stuff.

    Perhaps the reason I have been able to limp along all these years with some good parts of days is because I did deal with the atlas spinal problem, I wouldnt have the heart to go thru any kind of treatment like that again though unless god (if there is such a thing) came down from heaven and guarateed me it would be worth it. I don't know if the profilax is safe I do know from personal experience that atlas orthogony did help with some of the neurological spinal stuff but then I got impatient to get back to complete normal, back then I still thought that was possible, so I went to rolfing and a few sessions of trad'l chiropractic again and that just about gave me a nervous and physical breakdown, I spent months mostly on my back, managed to work by being able to lie on the floor for awhile every hour or so in the day, not a physical job, and to bed as soon as home, looked and felt like crap, thats when I was 33. AFter I came out of the woods w/that a bit have only used the cranial sacral and myofascial bodywork for when feel really off since and that stuff works and like I said even that stuff can make me hurt worse for weeks although it gets spine in better alignment, my normie friends feel like that body work isnt even a tickle and need deep massage to feel anything.

    Have they done an MRI of your head and spine? It would need to be a smart neurosurgeon though who gets this stuff. If you can afford to go see DR Heffez in Mke, WI, he totally knows the connection of fm to spine and atlas and he knows how to do the mri the right way to figure it out, if you could even get a doc where you live to call him or go to his website to learn how to do your mri right on your spine that might be a start and then send it to him and consult with him. Your stuff sounds like real neuro spine related issue ties in esp with the chiro history, and then infections/viruses whatever else complicates it. I still wouldnt nec. do the surgery even w/heffez though because of the mcs etc the surgery might be too hard on me/us. The reason you might have felt better right after surgery is cus of the anesthesia. ARe you on pain medicine now? not just antiinflammatories but an analgesic? that might help a lot if yr not.

    I don't know whether you should do antibiotics, I havent really tried that. I am going to try to get a bunch of testing this year to see if I have stuff I didnt know about, like you it should have been done a long time ago but no one ever suggested it, grrr. I don't know if I will do antibiotics or antivirals even if indicated, afraid cus of the mcs. This is like the worst thing to have, like ahouse of cards, ya try one thing to help and then it opens up a new pandora's box, its such a mindgame, from time to time i just decide to cut my losses and try to preserve where I am at when its not too bad.
  11. herbqueen

    herbqueen New Member

    Had my atlas adjusted via prof method. Christine Bemish- she used a massage device to massage muscles until atlas was repositoned-

    Is that the technique your adjuster used?

    It was very gentle-but did it really adjust the atlas? I'm not sure I see any differences yet-definitely was not miracle cure or helped me get sleeping-hoped it would at least help with sleeping and numbness i'm having now-but no difference yet-

    Do the atlas prof all use this massage device to massage muscles and allow atlas to re-adjust?
  12. herbqueen

    herbqueen New Member

    bumping up for wayne
  13. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Herbqueen,

    My own reaction after receiving the AP was pretty "underwhelming". It somehow seemed too simple, too safe, too quiet, too hard to tell what if anything happend. But I did start to notice various improvements over the next several days.

    A woman (username exgolfer) used to post here on her own AP experience. If I remember correctly, it took several weeks for her to start noticing improvements. But within a couple of months, she was able to start weaning herself from some heavy duty anti-anxiety and anti-depressant medications. Last I heard she considered herself completely free of fibromyagia.

    The massage device that you mention is used by all AP pracitioners. I'm assuming you were told to come back and have your atlas re-checked, to make sure it stayed in alignment. About 10% of patients will have to have it done a second time. I would recommend being somewhat vigilant to various things you might notice over time. It may turn out that you don't get significant benefits. But my understanding is that most people notice at least some benefits. I suspect I was in the top 10% of people as far as experiencing some pretty profound improvements.

    Congratulations on getting this done. Whether you consciously notice anything or not, I would suspect you've removed some chronic stresses from your body. And we certainly don't need any more stresses than we already have.

    Best, Wayne[This Message was Edited on 05/08/2010]
  14. gapsych

    gapsych New Member


    Welcome to the board. Hey, another coincidence!!! Friends of friends?

    Try Wayne on the Phoenix Rising Board.

    gap

    [This Message was Edited on 07/15/2010]
  15. gapsych

    gapsych New Member

    This is from a Chiropractor.

    Answers to Questions about Chiropractic:
    Is An Atlas Adjustment Needed
    to Relieve Headache or Neck Pain?
    Samuel Homola, D.C.

    Question
    I just read a comment you made about atlas adjustments for lower back pain. You indicated that lower back pain cannot be caused from a misaligned atlas. I am currently seeing a Chiropractor that uses this technique for headaches and other neck problems. My question is: Do you believe in the technique of adjusting the Atlas for headaches or other upper neck problems? If not, Why?

    Answer
    General neck manipulation can be of value in relieving tension headache and in restoring loss of mobility caused by certain mechanical-type neck problems. Specific manipulation of the atlas might occasionally be of value when there is an upper cervical problem. But I don't know of any credible evidence to indicate that the atlas should be routinely adjusted for headache or neck pain or as a treatment for a variety of health problems. Ongoing manipulation of the atlas or upper cervical area is never necessary and places the patient at risk of injury to vertebrobasilar arteries (stroke).

    When manipulation of the atlas is needed to restore mobility to the neck area, only a few manipulations would be needed. The danger is greatest when head rotation is used to force neck rotation beyond 45 or 50 degrees.

    Some chiropractors believe that atlas misalignment causes a myriad of health problems by placing pressure on the brain stem. There is no credible evidence to support this belief. When the atlas is freely movable, its resting place cannot be changed. A measured "misalignment" may indicate nothing more than structural asymmetry (irregular or uneven bone structure).

    Because of the risk associated with neck manipulation, you should get such treatment only as needed to relieve symptoms or to restore mobility in the neck area. If you have doubts about the treatment you are getting, or if your neck pain persists, see an ORTHOPEDIST for a definitive diagnosis.
    (Capitilzation mine.)

    http://www.chirobase.org/17QA/atlas4.html
  16. dunner2

    dunner2 New Member

    I've had chronic neck pain for 15 years. I see my chiropractor every few weeks as needed for pain and headaches. He adjusts the atlas. This way of adjusting my neck has helped alot. But it won't stay in place. So I have to be careful what I do. I've noticed I'm becoming weaker as the years go by. I'm a 55 year old female.
    Has Atlas Profilax helped you? If I could get my atlas to stay in place that would help so much.
    There's a Chiropractor in Bloomington, Minnesota that does this. I believe it's the one you mentioned. So I'm thinking on trying it.
    How have you done since your adjustment? Have you had it done more than once?
    I would give anything for something like this to help!!
    I've tried everything! Drugs, injections, etc. Thanks for any help you can give. Deb
  17. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Deb,

    I only had the Atlas Profilax "atlas repositioning" done once. I've had it rechecked several times in the past four years (at no cost) since having it initially done, and have never had to have it redone. One of the practitioners who rechecked it was Brian Elijah, DC, in Bloomington, MN. (He is also a Naturopath).

    It would be easy for me to recommend just about anybody getting this done, but I rarely make such direct recommendations. Instead, I would suggest you to contact Dr. Elijah. Talk with him, tell him about your problems, share whatever concerns you might have, ask him what he would recommend. See what kind of feel you get from him, and whether you might want to follow up.

    A friend of mine came with me when I went in for my recheck, and he knew immediately that both he and his wife might benefit from it. They both had it done, and have been thankful ever since for doing so. I consider having had this done as one of the best things I've ever done for myself. I consider it extremely safe. Just my take.

    All the best if you decide to go forward with this.

    Regards, Wayne[This Message was Edited on 10/16/2011]
  18. dunner2

    dunner2 New Member

    Thanks Wayne!
    I'm for sure going to contact Dr. Elijah and see what he says. Thanks for your reply.
    If I have this done I'll keep everyone posted. Deb