B12 patches

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Cromwell, Jan 15, 2007.

  1. Cromwell

    Cromwell New Member

    I have noticed that there are now patches for the right sort(MB) of B12. Has anyone else tried this? Does ProHelath carry it, I have not seen it. It is supposed to work well as it absorbs through the skin.

    Annie Cromwell
  2. connieaag

    connieaag New Member

    I wonder where you would place them? Hopefully someone has tried them and will respond.

    Connie
  3. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I looked this up on google. There's a site devoted specifically to them. The cost is $25 for a one month supply.

    I sort of like this idea. I'm not sure how much I'm absorbing from the sublingual liquid. The patch seems more likely to give a consistent result.

    I already use an estrogen patch, and so I'm not sure how I feel about adding another. I might buy a box to see though.

    In theory, B12 increases energy and improves coordination. I did not notice more energy when I was giving myself shots, but that (in retrospect) was likely because my immune system was in such poor shape that I had reached a plateau in terms of how good I could feel. My golf game improved while I was on it, suggesting that I did indeed need more.

    CFS patients often do not create much stomach acid, meaning that it is basically impossible for them to absorb B12 from food. Older people also tend not to have much stomach acid, and thus often have B12 deficiencies. My grandmother said she felt _much_ better on it, for example.

    HOWEVER:

    What I wanted to write here mostly is:

    I HIGHLY suggest that B12 shots (or other similar shots where you have to push a needle through a rubber stopper) be avoided unless they are providing significant benefit.

    I used many such shots (B12, kutapressin, ATP/glutathione, various hormone extracts) over a period of about 9 years.

    After that, I developed a deadly latex/rubber allergy that has the potential to burn up my body from the inside.

    I found out too late that injecting all those tiny bits of rubber from the stopper into the body sensitizes it to the substance, until eventually (in some people) it turns into an allergy.

    This is not a good allergy to have, since in an emergency situation medical workers may apply latex gloves to open wounds. That would be enough to do me in, I think.

    I'm a pretty big risk-taker with supplements and drugs, but this is one thing that I wish I had done differently.

    Thus, if lots of B12 supplementation is desired, the patches seem like they might be a good idea.
  4. phoebe1

    phoebe1 New Member

    Lisapetrison, I don't know who injected you like that but it is not the correct practice and was very negligent of them, any medical professional knows that you don't use the same needle you push through the rubber to inject, you change it to a clean needle!
    Aside from the rubber stuck in the needle, pushing it through the rubber also makes the needle blunt and painful to inject.

    Phoebe
  5. hugs4evry1

    hugs4evry1 New Member

    I know you asked about patches, but I use the Neuro B12 sublinguals they sell here at Pro Health.

    I think they're wonderful and they've gotten me through many chores that I didn't think I could finish, or do at all.

    Hugs,

    Nancy B
  6. Cromwell

    Cromwell New Member

    For all the info. I have the sublingual. I will try it.

    Love Annie C.
  7. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Phoebe--

    I did a fairly extensive search on the Web for instructions on how patients should inject medications from bottles with rubber stoppers. None of the articles I found suggested anything about a needle change.

    Obviously the needle change must be standard practice in South Africa, and it sounds like a very good idea to me.

    However, that doesn't seem to be how it's typically done in the U.S. Maybe it's because some people here have the belief that making clean needles widely available will make people more likely to use illegal drugs.

    If anyone else has experiences with injectible drugs and needle changes, please pitch in, of course.

    In any case, I found some academic articles on this subject. Their research showed that even before needles were inserted through the rubber, liquid stored inside bottles with rubber stoppers were contaminated with it.

    Obviously rubber disintegrates significantly over time on its own, and so the fact that small particles would make their way into the liquid quickly is not surprising.

    Some solutions cause dissolution of rubber, and that would cause even more contamination.

    And then, pushing the needle through the rubber stopper would cause more particles to fall into the container. They then would be sucked up through the needle and inserted with the liquid. (It seems that even microscopic particles can cause major reactions when injected.)

    All in all, therefore, it seems to me that all people (especially those inclined to developing allergies) should be wary about doing too many shots that require the pushing of needles through rubber stoppers.....regardless of whether the needle is changed.

    The one solution to all this is the use of synthetic rubber stoppers, which apparently do not cause allergic reactions.

    I got the number for the company that makes Nexavir, and am going to call them tomorrow to ask whether their product has a rubber or synthetic stopper.

  8. cma331

    cma331 New Member


    Please let us know what Nexco Pharma says about that..........I don't change my needle all the time.

    Can't change it with a insulin syringe, which i use for my b12 shots........

    Carole
  9. Pianowoman

    Pianowoman New Member

    I was a Nursing Professor before I became ill. The standard when we taught injections was to change the needle if we had used a vial with a ruber diaphragm.
    Things seem to have changed however. Changing needles costs money and time and many nurses now do not change the needle unless they need to. I have to say however, that developing a latex allergy this way is new to me. It obviously depends on the number of injections and vulnerability of one's system.
    Drug patches could in a some cases provide an alternative for people with allergies or at risk of developing allergies. It would not be the answer in every case, however.

    Kathy
  10. phoebe1

    phoebe1 New Member

    Because vitamins are not regulated, it is very possible that the rubber diaphragm could be of such a low quality that it would dissolve over time.
    But I find it difficult to believe that it would be the case with scheduled drugs, injectables are manufactured under very strict and sterile conditions.

    The process a drug goes through to get registered is extensive and extremely difficult. It takes years for all the tests and clinical trials to be completed, I don't know how it works in the US but here pharmacists are responsible for the registration of medicine and you can not believe the amount of paperwork, it is literally stacked form the floor to the roof.

    I think that latex sensitivity probably occurs in a statistically insignificant amount of people and that is why the big companies don't consider it as a serious side effect. But I agree, I wouldn't take shots for a prolonged period of time out of a vial with a rubber.
    I wish there was more information available out there about allergies and sensitivities.

    Phoebe
    [This Message was Edited on 01/18/2007]
  11. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Medical care workers who use latex gloves a lot develop latex allergies far more frequently than the rest of the population, apparently since their bodies become sensitized to the material. I would imagine that would be true of people who do many injections that include tiny bits of rubber as well, especially when they already are prone to allergies.

    I will say that I used a _lot_ of various shots over nine years or so. An average of one every week or so, anyway. None of them helped me _that_ much---certainly not enough to have risked this problem.

    I actually found an academic journal article on this during my internet search, although I doubt I could find the paper very easily again. Researchers were trying to determine whether the liquid in the glass vials had rubber in it before needles were passed through the rubber stopper. (The assumption in the paper was that the liquid certainly would get contaminated if needles pierced the rubber, but that perhaps doctors could open the glass vials for injection.)

    The paper said that there were lots of rubber particles in the liquid even before the bottle was opened. This was a drug, and not the kind that dissolves rubber.

    Obviously cheap rubber dissolves very quickly, but I always was of the impression that even good rubber sheds a little bit. I'm no rubbeer expert, but that study seems to bear this out.

    Considering that few people are allergic to rubber and the particles are microscopic, the FDA may not be looking for this.

    However, it is noteworthy that I found instructions to medical care workers on another professional-type site (this was a long time ago) that regardless of the severity and acuteness of the problem, a shot where a needle has to go through rubber should _never_ be given to patients allergic to latex/rubber. (This seems to me a bit excessive and that perhaps, rather than let the patient die for want of the drug, it would be better to use the solution along with an epinephrine injection like the epi-pen.) So at least some people are aware of the problem.

    I cannot say with 100% certainty that all these shots created my latex allergy, of course.

    However, I am not in much contact with other kinds of latex or rubber.

    This whole thing is similar to my situation with cellulose. I have found that the cellulose filler in many supplements (especially the kind sold at drug stores) causes me to have a very nasty rash on my chest. This occurred after about six years of taking maybe 40 different pills per day (many of which did include cellulose) with no problems.

    I have been unable to find much information on cellulose filler allergies. However, it is noteworthy that vitamin companies catering to "sensitive" individuals do not include it in their products. Pure Encapsulations (a brand sold through doctors) has a large section on its Web FAQ section where it explains in detail how even though it uses a plant fiber filler, it has been purified to the point that it is safe for even sensitive users. (I have not had a problem with PE's products.)

    A few drug companies use cellulose in their products. Fortunately, they are not drugs I need to take at the moment. I do not believe this allergy is dangerous, but it's not good to provoke it even if I weren't concerned about how my chest appeared.

    Eventually after we're finished discussing it, I should move this information to its own thread. I wish I had known about the possibility of developing latex and cellulose allergies when I first got this disease. Since there are lots of vitamins without cellulose in them, and since most of those shots did not dramatically improve my health, I likely would have made different choices in order to be on the safe side.
  12. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I was under the impression that GERD has little to do with the total amount of stomach acid, and is instead related to whether whatever acid is there is allowed to splash back up into the esophagus. Even the contents of a slightly acidic stomach can cause problems if that duct isn't working properly, it seems.

    The idea of stomach acid being a problem was brought to my attention by one of my doctors (MD Stanford) who also had CFS and who treated many CFS patients.

    She gave me a simple test where a capsule is filled with string (with a long piece of it sticking out). You swallow the capsule, wait a while, and then pull the string out. (The capsule will have dissolved. The amount of acid on the string is then measured.

    My string apparently had no acid whatsoever. After I started taking large amounts of supplemental stomach acid with meals, my digestion got much better.

    Apparently my body does not have enough energy to synthesize the products that it needs. My glandular system does not secrete enough hormones, my digestive enzyme production is low, my need for NADH and Coenzyme Q10 (both produced by the body) is extremely high. Amino acid production seems to be a problem for me too, based on an amino acid profile I had done once.

    Apparently this is a pretty common problem with regard to people whose health levels are suboptimal. That's certainly the case amongst older people, who often have a hard time digesting anything but light meals and very often have insufficient B12 levels.

    I don't think many CFS patients are aware of the possibility that they might have this problem and thus are not looking for it. For what it's worth, almost all of my other symptoms and problems are absolutely classic CFS ones. It's hard for me to believe that I could have this sort of severe problem stemming from having a weak body that wouldn't affect anyone else with this disease, therefore.

    I'd like to see more research and discussion on this.


    [This Message was Edited on 01/19/2007]
  13. joeb7th

    joeb7th New Member

    Lisa, I was just diagnosed with a B-12 range of around 180+.

    Do I need this B-12 patch also...or the under the tongue pills?

    I am a 55 year old male whose body last year exploded into many of the fibro-cfs symptoms as well as others after having a severe flu, fainting on my head and bloodily breaking my septum and knocking myself out in middle of this flu with bronchitis and low electrolytes and then being given a powerful antibiotic called Levaquin that first night and through the first week.

    What my body started to go through within 24 hours of my second dose of Levaquin and still continues to go through is so horrible it's hard to type it out. Every day I suffer with everything from tendinitis to feeling nauseas and so sick and even fainty inside and weak like I am being poisoned. Legs so weak, Entire nerve system haywire. Add unbelievable anxiety and depression. Was concierge and happy right up to this illness nightmare.



    This all started in Dec. 2005 and the last year has been a nightmare. Many times felt like I was going to die. Even this morning I feel so sick, if I was rich I would go to a top university hospital and say " just take me" keep me here until you find out why I am so sick, sore, dizzy and fainty and weak every day of my life.

    Lost 35 lbs in first 3 months as eating sent me into shock. Had no pcp most of this time and a couple of others gave up trying to find main cause of all these maladies and kept referring me to psychiatrists. So part of nightmare has been to get help from different specialists by myself and hoping they don't immediately start the psychiatric gulag thing wth me again. And the "months" it takes to get new appointments and tests, especially in a small town area with a good-ole-boy network of doctors who all know each other and cover for each other if you say anything at all about one of their colleagues.

    Finally had my first meeting with an endocrinolgist last month. She took blood tests a few days ago. So far..found B-12 levels to be 180+ ?
    Got a shot in arm that day of B-12. Not feeling any better at all. Sure it must take more than one shot though.

    Question, I bought these b-12 pills that you put under your tongue and dissolve. They have 400 mcg of Folic acid and 1,000 mcg or 16,000 times the daily required amount of B-12!

    Do these under the tongue B-12 pills work? And is that 16,000 times amount of B-12 safe to take?

    Also, I have horrible stomach acid reflux ( diagnosed and taking Nexium and certs for this ) and feel so much burning and sick from this all the time.

    So, am I a person who has enough acid "in the stomach" to dissolve B-12? or like one of the posters here said...that you can have GERD and a burning esophagus and still not enough acid in your stomach to digest your food properly including B-12?

    I have gastritis, mild to moderate diverticulosis, and some inflammation in my middle intestine.

    My stools the last year or so are always a light yellow brown and smell so bad...no matter what I eat. I feel something is wrong there but a recent test at a hospital for malabsorbtion of fats came out okay.

    But do I need digestive enzymes? And should I be taking probiotics? My intestinal conditon is just shot it seems.
    I have much gas and pain..and I was diagnosed with yeast in my stool a year ago but my GI at that time said this wasn't worth worrying about.

    My endo suggested I take a pill that helped food go down my sphincter? And another doctor speculated I might have motility problems.

    Whew...too much here. As confusing as ever.

    By the way..went to Stanford once when first GI doc down here gave up on trying to explain my intestinal pain and almost fainting body shock after eating. Stanford G.I. Doc...Lauren Gerston, read his report, talked to me..and suggested only an antidepressant called trazadone. Said she didn't see any reason for my level of complaints about GI pain and body shock, fainting feelings either.

    Later I found another GI who suggested me swallowing a camera ( both Stanford GI doc and original GI doc never suggested looking at middle intestine.) When results of this came back, there were 25 areas of inflammation and some damage to the illium. Had to take asacol and later endocort and antibiotics for that. Guess it has subsided "some" but first docs never would look at that area and instead suggested I need a psychiatrist more than anything. Later the original GI doc apologized for missing the middle intestinal damage and never suggesting we even look at it. Never saw the Stanford doc again.

    Still dying in California. JB
  14. Cromwell

    Cromwell New Member

    Sorry I am late geting back here.

    I think that the stomach acid test is worth doing. MOst docs won't do it as they just presume your acid is too high. Like you, I no longer buy into this.

    Latest research also shows that not only can we not absorb B12 adequately when on PPI's such as Prilosec, nexium et al, but we are a far greater risk of malabsorbtion of calcium causing osteoporosis.

    In addition, there is no feedback to drug companies for some of the side effects they may be seeing such as the arthralgias (muscle aches and joint aches) the acid reducers cause.

    The LES "valve" is the problem, it opens and allows acid(even low acid) to back up. Strangely, things that decrease the pressure there are peppermint and citrus both ingredients in Tums etc.

    Anyway, Good points by all.

    I read this: Stomach acid: 30 mins prior to all meals drink glass of water.

    Eat slowly and sitting erect. Stay erect for 30 mins after meal. Do not drink liquid with meal. Wait at least 30 mins after, preferably an hour before liquid.

    LOve Annie Cromwell
  15. jess

    jess New Member

    Hi, I was under the impression that CFIDS people had a weak diaphragm muscle which allowed acid back up. I wanted to try adding some betaine but I am afraid it will just be more acid coming up. I have a hiatal hernia and Baretts esophagus. I can't have any acid coming back. ANyone in a similar boat? Jess
  16. joeb7th

    joeb7th New Member

    One E.R. doc told me he thought I had a hiatal hernia also.

    How do you treat this. How do you live with it.

    How does it affect your eating habits.

    What helps you with this. Food, activity and living habits?

    Thanks, JB
  17. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Sorry you're having such a hard time of it.

    The arm seems like a strange place to have a B12 injection. Usually they're done in the thigh or the hip/buttock region.

    I've heard consistently that you cannot take too much B12. Part of this is because it does not absorb, part is because it is supposedly benign.

    If you really want to see if it's benign, ask a question on the board like "Have you ever heard of anyone having a bad reaction to B12?" It seems to me that if it's possible to have a negative reaction to something, people here will have had it.

    Sublingual, patch and injectable B12 are all possible ways to get it. Pills that are swallowed rarely absorb even if you have lots of stomach acid (which is why a regular B vitamin won't help).

    Some people can feel a difference with B12 immediately. Others never do, even though they're short on it.

    I've found that B12 helps my coordination (e.g. my golf game). I've never noted any other effects, but that doesn't mean it's not helping me in some way.

    The esophagus shouldn't be subject even to mild acid, which it can get even when stomach acid is pretty low if a person has GERD. Other than that, I don't know anything about GERD.

    My doctor believes in as many probiotics as possible for anyone with intestinal problems. At least 10 billion (equivalent to 10 regular capsules) per day, preferably more.

    Digestive enzymes are always good too, unless you're one of the people on this board who can't take them.

    I take stomach acid, digestive enzymes and huge amounts of probiotics regularly. They seem to help with my problems (which tend toward constipation and bowel toxicity).

    My doctor also recommended large amounts of Vitamin C ("as much as you can tolerate without diarrhea") to assist in bowel toxicity. This has turned out to be about 25,000 mg per day for me. (He said this was fine and that I should add a little sea salt.) As with the enzymes, CFS sufferers in particular should be careful when adding any Vitamin C in the event that negative reactions occur.

    I wonder if you could have a parasite or bacterial infection in your intestines. A company called Genova Laboratories (formerly Great Smokies) has a pretty good test to diagnose that as well as general digestive function. Perhaps you could call the company and ask if there are any doctors in your area that might order it. (It's an expensive test though, and so you will want insurance to pay for it.)

    The doctor I mentioned above (who gave me the stomach acid test) just graduated from Stanford; she doesn't work there. Until Dr. Montoya started working on CFS, I hadn't seen many doctors associated with big universities doing work with this kind of illness.

    I hope you feel better soon.


  18. cherylsue

    cherylsue Member

    I picked up on your use of levaquin. I had a terrible flu in May 2000 and was hospitalized. It was bad, but when they gave me the levaquin it put me over the top. I then developed CFS for 13 mos. It came back 3 years later after a remission. Went away again, and came back a year later. I've always suspected levaquin was one of the factors in me developing CFS.

    CherylSue