Best gentle way to bind neurotoxins?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia and ME & Chronic Fatigue Syndrome' started by wrthster, Apr 1, 2008.

  1. wrthster

    wrthster New Member

    Other then activated charcoal and Questran, does anyone know of anything that binds and removes toxins really well?

    Something that is safe and not to harsh. Thanks very much for any suggestions and anything you have found to be extremely effective.
    [This Message was Edited on 04/04/2008]
  2. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    The effect of increasing the bicarbonate intake will be to cause the PH of the urine filtrate in the kidneys to rise, which will cause the class of toxins that act chemically as weak acids to become more highly ionized, and thus to be excreted into the urine at higher rates, and thus to be eliminated from the body more rapidly. A similiar effect may occur to some extent in the gut, especially if the pancreas is not putting out bicarbonate into the duodenum at as high a rate as it should. This could be the case in PWCs, because many have low stomach acid generation, and the acid from the stomach is the signal that tells the duodenal cells to secrete the hormone secretin, which tells the pancreas to put out sodium bicarbonate. So if this signal is not properly sent because of low stomach acid generation, then the PH in the gut may tend to be too low because of lack of bicarbonate, and that would cause the toxins not to ionize as much, and to be more likely to be reabsorbed. Taking bicarbonate orally in that situation may increase the rate of excretion of weak acid type toxins in the stools.
    [This Message was Edited on 04/02/2008]
  3. PVLady

    PVLady New Member

    bumping
  4. wrthster

    wrthster New Member

    Thank you very much. One interesting thing, you mention secretin, I ordered the homeopathic and think it actually made me worse. I have a lot of problems with my pancreas.

    Also, if you have low stomach acid to begin with, bicorbanate will make you more akaline and less acidic. But if you are not producing enough Hydrocloric acid then it will make digestion even tougher.

    I seem to have problems both ways. If you could provide more clarification I would greatly appreciate it.

    Also, any other binding agents would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks very much.
  5. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    I use baking soda as an aid in getting rid of yeast in my digestive tract and sinuses. It is a contact fungicide. But I also believe it helped to absorb and eliminate the gases created by toxins. I already have low or no stomach acid. Therefore it did not affect my stomach acid production. I've also found that doing shots of lemon water works just as well as any other digestive aid. If you have a problem with the liver, pancreas or spleen, it is very important to use Pantethine and probably Molybdenum. I also use a combination of Milk Thistle, dandelion, fennel and licorice for liver, pancreas and spleen support. I get discomfort in my spleen. Hopefully the methylation protocol will help take care of the inflammation in my spleen by shifting my immune response back to T1.
  6. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    The role of yeast (fungus) in the body is to get rid of debris. It is attracted to sites of inflammation. Acetaldehyde is a byproduct of this fungus. These toxins which are affecting you are more than likely acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde is a powerful muscle poison. The heart is a muscle. This is a vicious cycle that the methylation protocol addresses.
  7. desertlass

    desertlass New Member

    You might get more of a response if you change the title of your thread to something like:

    Best gentle way to bind neurotoxins?

    Do you know anything about bentonite clay? Some people say they take it internally, but something about that frightens me.

    When a Gulf War vet friend of mine was hospitalized in Germany, the nurses would bring slabs of warm clay to cover him in. This was not the U.S base hospital, as you can imagine. I wonder if this was the sort of clay they used.

    Anyway, the method of trying to suck out toxins is not outside of Western medicine, just apparently outside of the U.S.

    I think you tried some of the green foods in the past, did you? Like cilantro and chlorella?

    I wonder if Milk of Magnesia, of all things, could have a binding affect, since it is based on a mineral-- but that is just a wild, possibly nutty idea on my part.

    Hope you have success, and let us know what you find out. I think this could be the 64K question for many of us.

    take care,
    Lisette
  8. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    I'm not going to comment specifically on safety. I think that would depend on the particular person, and on the amount of bicarbonate ingested. When doctors apply large amounts of bicarbonate intravenously, they monitor certain parameters to keep the procedure safe. These would include the PH of the urine, the PH of the blood, the electrolyte levels in the blood (particularily potassium), and the blood pressure. There's a very old saying in toxicology that "the poison is in the dose". I suspect that if one swallowed a large enough ammount of bicarbonate, one would come to a bad end. I can't say how much would be a safe amount, but as you know, it's in a lot of recipes, and people brush their teeth with it and take it for an upset stomach, and they seem to survive alright.
    [This Message was Edited on 04/03/2008]
  9. Khalyal

    Khalyal New Member

    is available in a lot of day spas, and not too expensive. I think it helps!

    K
  10. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Hi, wrthster!

    CholestePure by Pure Encapsulations
    Promise Active Supershots
    Soluble fiber
    (I used Benefiber. There's psyillium husks, pectin, and lots of other kinds of soluble fiber in the world, too.)

    The three above things are all like milder versions of Questran. They don't work in exactly the same way, but they accomplish the same thing.

    Reports from others:

    Unpasteurized, fermented Noni juice
    (The exact brand to use is in the book "Mold: The War Within".)

    Whole lemon drink
    (blend a washed whole lemon, water, a teaspoon of olive oil together)
    Or if you can't hack that, water with just lemon juice and olive oil in it.

    EFAs like fish oil and evening primrose oil and Udo's oil.

    That's all I know about!
    Love,
    Forebearance
  11. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, all.

    In the book the 7-Day Detox Miracle, lemon water is suggested to be used for two days. If lemon water is ingested over longer times, it is important to minimize its contact with the teeth, and the mouth should be rinsed with water afterward. The reason for this is that lemon is sufficiently acidic that it can dissolve material from the teeth.

    Rich
  12. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    Thanks!!!!!..Has anyone used kelp or seaweed to help bind and eliminate mercury?
  13. wrthster

    wrthster New Member

    Thanks all for your excellent suggestions. Empty2Void no I never found out, you know finding that stuff is really difficult. I think I have so many infections going on at the same time trying to figure out which is which at this point seems to be useless.

    Or if one is eradicated another pops up. It all boils down to immunity. I am just about ready to give up eating all together.

    I would not be surprised if there is something parasitic, but finding it in a stool test is not happening for me. Nor are my eosphils raised. One lab found a Trichomonis infection but that has been it. I am sure there is more, but can not isolate it. I tried medobenzole which did nothing. Tindamax worked for a while, but did not seem to eradicate. If I cant get my immune system better, it seems pointless.

    Any more suggestions are welcome. Thanks again.
  14. mollystwin

    mollystwin New Member

    I use questron, but not a full scoop. My doctor also suggests the detox baths with epsom salt. I love these baths! Some use peroxide in addition to the epsom salts.

    Woofmom, My sister and I both use chlorella to eliminate mercury and other metals from the body.

    dar
  15. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I thought this was interesting.

    I've been using green tea extract in the dose recommended, but am not sure how it's doing.

    Questran (cholestyramine) is pretty intense for me. Adding essential fatty acids (either fish oil or flax/GLA oil) at the same time boosts it up tremendously.

    I think that this means I really need the Questran and am going to continue with it some more.

    Right now I'm on a much-needed break.

    What I'm finding is that though I feel better in general off the Questran, mold "hits" affect me much more. That's getting really annoying.

    I do have some hope I can get all this stuff out though. And the good thing is, I feel like every bit of mycotoxin I get out is gone for good.

    This contrasts sharply with using antivirals and antibiotics, where I have a big fear that any gains I make will dissipate in time.

    Anyway, here's the green tea interview.

    **

    I have been looking for new detoxification methods and thus have been re-reading the interviews in the back of "Mold: The War Within" by Kurt & Lee Ann Billings.

    This one is with Jin-Sheng Wang, MD, Ph.D., Professor of Molecular Toxocology at the epartment of Environmental Toxicology, College of Science and Arts at Texas Tech University, Lubbock, Texas, and division leader of the Division of Human Health Services. Dr. Wang received his MD in the field of Preventive MEdicine with a speialty in Toxicology from the Shanghai First Medical College in Shanghai, his PhD in Pathology from Boston University, and his post-doctoral fellow in molecular epidemiology from Johns Hopkins University.

    It says here that: "Dr. Wang is one of several doctors who first identified the two major factors that cause liver cancer---hepatitis B and aflatoxin---while conducting research in Qidong and Guangxi in China nearly 30 years ago. He has continued his research in this area, focusing on ways to reduce the odds of getting human liver cancer. His current research includes a long-term sudy on the effects of green tea extracts and green tea polyphenols and the possible related reduction in liver cancer.

    Here are some excerpts from the interview, in which he talks about mycotoxins in foods as well as ways in which to reduce the damage that such mycotoxins cause:

    **

    Q. Here in the U.S., products at the grocery store can already be contaminated with elevated levels of mycotoxins from fungi that grew on the crops or in storage silos and didn't get detected prior to manufacturing.

    Dr. W: Absolutely. That's true. The oddest thing in the U.S. is that rice tends to have possible problems too.

    Q. I thought rice was less prone to mold growth and was a safer grain when it comes to fungal and mycotoxin contamination.

    Dr. W: That's true. Unfortunately, it happens. As I mentioned earlier, I used that bag of rice for teaching purposes to detect mycotoxins. We also collected some corn samples in developing countries through the collaboration studies. As a control, we used cornmeal purchased through a national grocery store chain. I wanted students to see how food from developing countries is more contaminated with fumonisins than U.S. food. However, the measurements didn't prove that. We found higher levels in U.S. cornmeal than in the cornmeal from the developing countries!

    Q. Do you think higher levels of contaminants in mold-prone foods--corn, wheat, peanuts, tree nuts, etc.--are why mold-sensitized people get sick from eating those foods, because their bodies are now unable to detoxify the same level of contaminants as they were able to before the mold exposure?

    Dr. W: Well, that's true, but I think there's still a genetic susceptibility for each individual that plays a big part in that because aflatoxins are metabolized by certain enzymes, like cytochrome P450 IA2, 3A4, and 2A6. If you have a defect on expression of those enzymes, then you might be getting sicker compared to other people. Besides those enzymes, aflatoxins are also detoxified through what we call the phase 2 enzymes, glutathion S-transferases (GSTs) and epoxide hydrolases. We already have found from many studies that these are genetic polymorphic enzymes [enzymes that exist in several forms within a single species]. In fact a certain percentage of the population, dependent on ethnicity don't even have certain subtypes of these Phase 2 enzyme genes e.g. GSTM1 or T1, that lead to expression of the enzyme. Compared to others with the enzyme, these people's ability to detoxify aflatoxin would be very slow. That is the major reason why when we are equally exposed to the same levels of toxins, these people have a different reaction.

    Q. Do all mycotoxins suppress the immune system, like aflatoxins?

    Dr. W: Aflatoxins suppress the immune system. THe molds that produce tricothecenes are actually a problem in the U.S., in the Western society. Tricothecenes suppress the immune system, in particular T-2 toxin and deoxynivalenol. For a long time we have known these trichothecene toxins are all strong immunosuppressors. They can really suppress protein synthesis which will also suppress the immune system.

    Q. Do you think the immune-suppressing effects of these mycotoxins are a contributing cause of cancer?

    Dr. W: It is not causing cancer. It might be causing overall general health status to detriorate. That is why there are programs right now, like Dr. Pauline Jolly's group at the University of Alabama, that are trying to link the increased level of mycotoxin exposure ind eveloping countries to increased sensitivity to infectious disease, like HIV or maybe tuberculosis. Overall, we still need more data to try to link exposure to these mycotoxins to cancers. Certainly, immunological functions play a big role in cancer causation, based on current concepts.

    Q. People's genetic makeup determines strengths or weaknesses in detoxification pathways and how carcinogens will be mobilized. Does that mean that aflatoxin, for example, could give one person liver cancer, but another person a different form of cancer?

    Dr. W: Yes.

    Q. You have been involved in preventive cancer research that showed chlorophylli reduces the amount of aflatoxin DNA damage by 55 percent. Will chlorphyllin reduce the DNA damage caused by other mycotoxins as well?

    Dr. W. Well, actually, there are several agents right now. Chlorophyllin, actually, is not my own study. Dr. George Bailey at Oregon State is using chlorophyllin, trying to bind it to aflatoxin. Dr. Tom Kensler and Dr. John Groopman, both at Johns Hopkins, and Dr. George Bailey initiated a study in CHina for three months. Chlorphyllin is a physical binding agent. It was found that the levels of biomarkers that indicate DNA damage were found in reduced levels with chlorophyllin consumption.

    Dr. W: Studies have also been done with a drug called oltipraz. I published a couple of papers with Dr. Groopman and Dr. Kensler where we were using oltipraz. It really detoxifies aflatoxins. It works very well. The only problem is it has side effects. Also I am using green tea polyphenols and am now working with Dr. Philips at A & M University, who many years ago found a clay that can specifically bind aflatoxins.

    Q: WHat kind of clay is it? We tried taking bentonite, which is a clay, and did not see any improvement.

    Dr. W: It is a clay called NovaSil. Dr. Philips has been working on that for many years. I think he got a patent on it. THey have been testing NovaSil on many kinds of animals for the past 20 years and still are. You know, animal feed has a high contamination level of aflatoxins. So he put in a small amount, like 1 percent, of NovaSil with the feed of big and small animals---cattle, sheep pigs and chickens, too. From these test results, they found that aflatoxin-caused toxicity can be reduced completedly. Then, the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) supported a study to try to extend research of NovaSil to see if humans can use that kind of clay. So they are conducting research now to make sure a purified NovaSil is safe for human use. For instance, a pill could be taken before or after a meal to bind those toxins out.

    Q: Is this purified NovaSil available to the general public yet?

    Dr. W: It is available right now, but before it goes to open market, they have to test it in several human studies. Actually, I organized a study at Texas Tech of 50 normal people and we found that there are no side effects, not anything. Now, we are conducting a three-month study in Ghana, Africa, testing for human use. In fact, the study has ended, and we did not see any side effects, so we are evaluating to see the efficacy of the NovaSil, which is the next step in the process.

    Q: So you have not proven yet that it is effective?

    Dr. W: WE have not finished that analysis. We already know that in animals it is highly effective.

    Q: That sounds promising. But the studies involving the drug oltipraz have shown side effects?

    Dr. W: There are side effects of that drug, yes.

    Q: BUt there are natural alternatives that can be taken that would do the same type of thing as oltipraz?

    Dr. W: Yes, that's true. That is what we are looking at. Right now, I have a grand from the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and from the National Cancer Institute (NCI) working on green tea polyphenols and green tea extracts to see if they can prevent the effects of aflatoxins. Structurally, they do not bind with the aflatoxin as NovaSil and chlorophyllin do, but if you drink green tea, the natural active components can increase your body's metabolizing enzymes. In this manner, the polyphenols and green tea extracts can detoxify aflatoxins.

    Q: Wow.

    Dr. W: That is a large study. We have two or three papers already. We are right now doing a five-year study in Southern Guangxi, China, which is a high-risk area for liver cancer. They also have a higher exposure level of aflatoxins. WE gave people the green tea polyphenols in a cancer. We will see if that will eventually reduce the human liver cancer rate.

    Q: How many milligrams of green tea polyphenols are in each capsule?

    Dr. W: 250 mg per capsule. We are using 500 mg/day for the five-year study. We used 500 mg/day and 1000 mg/day for the three month study. The results from the three-month study are really very good.

    Q: Is there anything else that people can do to increase the detoxification pathways of the body?

    Dr. W: Vitamins like A, E and C are known antioxidants. They really can improve immune functions, so those might be good to take. Also, vitamin B1 and B2 would probably be good for overall metabolism because those vitamins surge the metabolism. They also might help to protect the liver and other organs.
  16. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    Ive started using a green drink that I buy at the grocery store again. It contains all of this. And I don't have to worry about the sugar content because I use Pantethine, Molybdenum, and sunlight which detox and stop the synthesis of yeast.
  17. mollystwin

    mollystwin New Member

    Did you know that if you herxing on questron is a lyme symptom?

    My doctor doesn't prescribe it until the lyme has been treated for a while. It can make you quite ill!!

    dar
  18. mollystwin

    mollystwin New Member

    My doctor started me on 3 pills twice a day. Being cautious, I only took one then worked up to three. I now take 4 pills twice a day. The pills are 3 grams of chlorella each.

    I can't say if this made me herx as I was chelating metals with IV dmps at the same time, which did make me ill. I wouldn't say the chlorella ever caused a herx,. but it's hard to know for sure as I was also treating lyme and I herxed from that quite often back then.

    I still take the chlorella, though I'm done with the other metal chelation. I feel so much better now that it is over with!! Glad I did it though.

    dar
  19. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Dar,

    Well, the way I see it is that I know for sure that I have mold poisoning, for the following reasons:

    * I get really sick whenever I am in places that contain toxic mold or even around items that have been in proximity to a lot of toxic mold.

    * I know that I lived for a long time in a house with toxic mold (verified by several mold experts and remediators).

    * My husband and I both were sick when living in that house, and improved substantially soon after moving out.

    My strong belief is that a very large amount of mycotoxins (mold biotoxins) remained in my body after moving out. I feel like this is primary to my illness.

    I've been taking Questran/cholestyramine for about four months, off and on. I started as soon as I moved out. I do get worse when I'm on it, but it's basically the poisoned "Sleeping Beauty" sick that I felt when I was living in the house. Basically like being in a coma.

    It's only really unpleasant if I really push it. ("Pushing it" doesn't mean taking too much csm, btw. It means combining the csm with too much fish/flax oil, or especially the blend of flax and GLA oils called "Udo's Oil.) I did make myself really sick once doing that. I think I knocked a whole bunch of biotoxins out of my head, since my brain felt swollen for a while (a new symptom for me), then my skin got inflamed and those detox foot pads turned dark black, then I spent a whole day throwing up (20+ times total), then I felt a severe icky depression for a few days.

    This went on for about 10 days after I took some of that Udo's oil (about half a cup over a period of two days) along with the csm. Not unbearable, but too much all at once.

    What is unbearable for me is antibiotics. I experimented again with Minocin a month ago, and though it was somewhat better it still was extremely unpleasant. Those actively unpleasant emotional and cognitive symptoms are far harder for me to deal with than the sort of "stunned" feelings that the csm gives me.

    More importantly, I feel like I'm for sure accomplishing something with the csm. Those poisons don't belong in my body, and getting them out feels like progress. And my VCS test has gradually moved from extremely terrible to (according to the test) normal. I feel like I could be doing even better since some days the bars are easier to read than others, but it is reassuring to feel like there's objective evidence that I'm doing better on that measure.

    Anyway, as for the antibiotics....I know that I have/had a really high chlamydia pneumoniae titer, and so the die-off from the minocin could be coming from that. Or it could be from lyme. If it is lyme though, it doesn't seem to me to be a really vicious lyme since otherwise I wouldn't be doing as well as I am (about 70% on those scales) when I suspend the csm for a week or so. And my vcs test scores have improved, meaning that if the hypothesized lyme is making more toxins I'm getting them out faster than new ones are being created.

    I believe quite strongly that I have a good many mycotoxins left buried in my body, and that I'm going to have to use more csm if I'm to get them out. (The methylation is really important for other toxins, but I have to conclude based on my reactions that the biotoxins are a different category.) My hope is that once I do that, my reactivity to mold will lessen. I'm less sick now even when I get mold "hits" than I was most of the time a few months ago, but it would be nice to be feeling okay all the time without having to live in a tent in the desert per Erik's suggestion.

    Obviously there still are bacteria (lyme and/or cpn) and viruses (since my Rnase-L and LMW Rnase-L were high at last count) in my body. Perhaps if I get rid of enough biotoxins and other toxins, my own immune system will be able to wipe them out on its own. Otherwise, some antibiotics or antivirals may be indicated.

    It's interesting to hear that csm makes a lot of people with lyme SO sick though. Shoemaker says that too, that abx push up cytokines some but that (at least for lyme patients) csm does it even more. I don't think csm is quite as bad with mycotoxins, which is another reason why I think that lyme toxins (if indeed they're an issue for me) are secondary. The csm is mostly annoying, since it puts me back in that coma. I don't have time for that, since I have things to do (mostly getting my house in order and then rented/sold so that I can move on to the next stage of my life). But it's not a nightmare by any stretch of the imagination.

    ABX and antivirals indeed feel nightmarish to me. It's interesting that some people can tolerate them more easily than the csm. Hopefully one day I'll be able to tolerate them too.

    Best, Lisa

    [This Message was Edited on 04/05/2008]
  20. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I realize that this is a thread about how to avoid taking csm/questran, but I so rarely see places to put this kind of info that I thought I'd include it here anyway.

    This actually is when I take cholestyramine at the same time as EFA's (fish oil or flax/GLA oil). CSM on its own does very little in terms of revving up detox. EFA's do almost nothing in terms of causing detox, as far as I can tell. Even a small amount of questran (as little as 1/4 teaspoon) and a little EFA (one tablespoon or more) invariably has a huge effect.

    This is the pattern:

    1-2 days:

    Feeling of brain swelling

    Feelings of feeling "stunned" in poisoned "sleeping beauty" coma (this continues throughout)

    Functioning drops substantially (from about 70% to maybe 40% on those scales)


    2+ Days:

    Detox foot pads turn from their usual light beige morning color to a dark brown

    Face gets really red and breaks out (coconut oil, which works miracles with any kind of pathogen-related breakout, does nothing to help)

    Appearance becomes more haggard than ever in my life

    Mostly healed scars where I had some moles removed last fall get very itchy and rather painful

    Sweating in general increases, with strong odd odor

    Everything starts to seem dim, VCS scores decline

    Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (especially to scented candles) increases

    Sensitivity to mold "hits" increases (heart pounding, difficulty breathing, feelings of nausea, weirdness, irritability)


    3+ Days:

    Liver (or I guess it's the gall bladder) makes "squeaky" sounds, over and over for hours at a time

    Feelings of nausea, sometimes accompanied by vomiting (though generally I can control this by taking arabinogalactan)

    Stools smell very strongly of cigarette smoke (a new one for me....I obviously don't smoke and avoid secondhand smoke like the plague)


    If I stop taking the csm/EFA's, this eventually ends. It doesn't totally go away until about 7-10 days after my last dose though.

    After some trial-and-error, I'm starting to think that the amount of detox I get doesn't vary much regardless of how much csm I take (i.e. from 1/4 teaspoon to 2 teaspoons....I've never taken more). What seems to determine the amount of detox is the amount of EFA's. Some csm does need to be present in order to start the process going though.

    I have my own theories about why a combination of csm and fish/flax oil might be needed to make this work, but they're just speculation.

    [This Message was Edited on 04/05/2008]