Bio Cranial Therapy - Major FM Relief Story - AtlasProfilax

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Waynesrhythm, Apr 1, 2008.

  1. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi All,

    I just started researching Bio Cranial therapy in the past couple of days and am getting a similar feeling about it that I first got with Atlas Profilax (from which I eventually experienced remarkable results). The similarities between these two modalities are that they both address structural issues (in different ways) in the cranial/upper cervical area. The following is the first paragraph of a story about a woman's amazing results with this therapy, written by her husband Mark Ridder.

    "My wife has suffered with debilitating Fibromyalgia for 9 LONG YEARS of chronic pain with virtually no relief. Thanks to God’s good grace, she has recently found miraculous relief from debilitating and disabling pain. This link, After 9 Long Years – Wife is Cured of Fibromyalgia Pain (A Husband’s Story) will take you directly to this couple’s remarkable story.

    In this story, Mark Kidder describes their excruciating ordeal with doctors and therapies of all sorts over a 9-year period.. A therapy called Bio Cranial therapy finally gave her relief from her pain. She is now apparently back to full health. What’s remarkable is that this therapy only takes a few minutes to perform.

    I researched Dr. Stuart Marmorstein's (D.C.) website (this woman's Bio Cranial practitioner) the past couple of days and have been impressed with this man and his approach to wellness. His focus on addressing structural imbalances in the Atlas and cranial areas is very much in line with my own success with Atlas Profilax.

    But Bio Cranial therapy addresses imbalances differently by affecting the very tough sheath surrounding the brain and spinal cord called the dura mater. This dura mater can become constricted and cause all kinds of pains. Because of its proximity to the pituitary gland, it can also adversely affect our endocrine system. Dr. Marmostein claims to have completely cleared up his own long standing hypothyroidism from having this therapy done.

    Dr. Marmorstein wrote, and posted on his website, a 15-page article entitled “How to Get Better...Really Better...with the Head to Foot Approach”. If you choose not to read the whole article, you may want to consider at least going to page 10 where he discusses the nature and importance of the Dura Mater.

    I've long had an interest in the "structural" aspect of ME/CFS and FM. I think for many to most of us structural problems are a contributing factor, for others, it is a big factor, and for some of us, it can be a huge factor. I feel I belong in the latter category, based on my own experience with Atlas Profilax, and various kinds of cranial therapy.

    There's much more to this, but I would encourage anybody who has had an interest in Atlas Profilax or other types of gentle upper cervical chiropractic methods, to do some research on this modality. I expect to follow up on this further, and will post more as I learn more.

    Best Regards, Wayne
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
  2. cct

    cct Member

    Hi Wayne,

    Thanks for sharing your findings regarding Bio Cranial Therapy.

    I have been wanting to do some internet research on the subject. I have a yellow post-it note stuck to my computer monitor as a reminder, but I just have not found the time to start the investigation.

    Your notes are very helpful.

    It sounds like a plausable condition and treatment. Have you talked with Michael Hane about this Bio Cranial theory?

    Are you interested in pursuing this form of treatment for yourself?

  3. doxygirl

    doxygirl New Member

    Funny that you posted this as I have been thinking a lot about atlas profilax lately....( especially the last day or two since my back has been bothering me so badly)

    I have wanted to do the atlas profilax because of my severe herniated disks in my back and neck.....and thought maybe this would really help me?

    Michael Hane was even kind enough to return my phone message I left him and was willing to help me set up and appt but hours turn into days ...days turn into months and months turn into years..QUICKLY at that...

    My point being that when I have the money I do not have the time ..when I have the time I do not have the money....and then a year or two has passed!

    I should just go DO it!

    Seems like more than anything Iam trying to just pay my bills and survive ...hope for me that I will be able to soon find the money and the time and get this done so I can come back and let you know how it has helped me!

    In the meantime...the procedure you are talking about is completly seperate from the AP correct?

    Thank you for posting this good piece of info Wayne:)

    [This Message was Edited on 04/02/2008]
  4. connieaag

    connieaag New Member

    I went to the website and found a local chiropractor who actaully has the most hours of training in the state on the Biocranial Therapy. I called and made an appointment for my daughter. I had lokoed into this before, but put it on the back burner.

    I had also emailed her from the site and she just called me back. She also is trained in another intersting technique and gave me this web site to look at. She doesn't charge extra for it, and I think it sounds equally as interesting. I will advise after our appointment next week.
    [This Message was Edited on 04/10/2008]
  5. desertlass

    desertlass New Member

    Like you, my problems are very structurally involved, so I read your link with much interest.

    I am really energized by some of the ideas in this.

    The photo of the tilted venetian blind is a perfect analogy to what happened to my own sacrum, and how I continue to feel, even after a really difficult season with prolotherapy.

    Many with CFS seem to have experienced a trauma to the head-- for me it was the 'other end' of the dura mater.

    That is why I have had cranio-sacral therapy done quite a bit over the years, not because of it's being a CFS "cure", but because my issues are more obvious.

    Even though my sacrum is more aligned and less hypermobile, they seem to notice that my upper body and skull seems are usually tense and locked up.

    Adjustments really don't do anything-- I can feel everything moving back by the time I'm in the car, which this biocranial guy recognizes.

    I wonder if the dura mater is just too darn tight, to compensate for other areas that are too loose or made with poor collagen structure, or even scar tissue that can form after being inflamed or out of kilter.

    I just thought of a funny example-- in the recent Newsweek, in an interview with Patrick Stewart of Star Trek, he mentioned how the costume had to be changed by the end of the second season. The uniform was made of lycra, but was too small for everyone on purpose, in order to make it completely wrinkle free and smooth. He said that it was putting an incredible strain on his neck, shoulders and back, and his chiro told him we was going to have permanent damage if this continued. So... they changed the uniform.

    Well, I wish I could change my dura mater to something that did not feel like it was one size too small. I constantly feel like I'm being pulled in at the middle, and my lower back has hyper-lordosis, and I can hardly hold up my cervical spine, let alone my head. My right shoulder just sort of hangs. Wow, I really sound like a beauty! :)

    I was really interested when your regular chiro said he noticed a difference in your face after the AP. I feel that even my facial bones are being pulled on, as well. I know that will sound crazy to anyone else but you, but to me, I can see a slight progression.

    Anyway, I have not forgotten about the AP. I feel that is just something I need to do. I don't seem to have a lot of luck with supplements. But structural therapies work on my energies in much the same way people describe "detoxing".

    It is just so much harder/more expensive to see practitioners than it is to take something, and so of course, I tend to hope that everything is a deficiency- based problem.

    So, how do you see these two therapies working together? Do you still feel the AP is the way to go first, or does biocranial method/doctor strike you better for the long haul?

    I'm sorry, I know it must be really hard to answer all of these questions, when you simply posted a link. :)

    I so appreciate your offer to help me see Michae Hane when he was in your area. For me, it wouldn't be so bad to just see him in Palm Springs. What I haven't figured out is the second visit. How long is there between visits, typically?

    I can imagine getting myself to the first one, but going back for a second appointment...(and with my luck, I'd probably need one) that might be difficult.

    Anyway, do you think you will be seeing this biocranial guy, or does he train others?

    (All out breath like a little girl, 'and ...and... and"-- sorry for the windy, disorganized post).

    All the best,
  6. cct

    cct Member

    jam. . .

    Thanks for the information.

    I was interested in possibly having some of this treatment done to my aching head, but at $60 - $90 per visit, per short visit, and with 2 treatments per week, I cannot afford the cost!

    Oh well! I guess that I will have to just continue with my standard treatment of beating my head against a brick wall!

  7. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Carron, Doxy, Connie, Lisette & Jam,

    Thanks much for your replies. I'm sort of out of commission at this time, so will try to get back to you relatively soon.

    It feels like my brain went on hiatus without prior approval! :)

  8. cct

    cct Member

    Hey jam,

    Thanks for letting me know that the pricing stucture may be changing in the near future. I will do some more internet searching to see if I can find some reduced rates.

  9. GigglePoet

    GigglePoet New Member

    I have done this. Called Cranio Biotic Tecnique I was very disapointed. This is just my experience that this was a waste of money.

    ~ GigglePoet
  10. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi All,

    For clarification purposes, the CranioBiotic Technique referred to by Connieaag and Gigglepoet is not the same as Bio Cranial Therapy.

    Bio Cranial Therapy involves a physical procedure whereby the dura mater apparently is stretched and relaxed in order to shift it out of a constrictive or spasmodic state. I'm posting Mark Kidder's description of it at the bottom of this post.

    CranioBiotic Technique is more of an allergy elimination technique, perhaps somewhat similar to NAET, but working on some different principles. This is supposedly accomplished by (according to some online information) "the gentle stimulation of specific reflex points on the cranium and upper body. These points are unique for each problem that is being treated."

    Regards to all, Wayne

    Description of Bio Cranial Technique -- by Mark Kidder

    After the preliminary evaluation, I watched Jackie go through the technique which in short comes down to this. Jackie laid flat on her back on a narrow padded table that was lowered to about 2 feet from the ground with Dr. Marmorstein standing behind her head.

    Based on the structure of Jackie’s skull, he positioned the fingers of his right hand onto a certain position at the base of her skull. With his right hand in place and while standing behind her, he put his left hand down on top of her shoulder (firmly pinning it against the table).

    With his left hand now holding her left shoulder down to the table, and with the right hand behind her skull, he then brought her head forward some and placed his chin on top of her head. He then proceeded to very slowly and gradually push Jackie’s head further and further forward (chin towards the chest) while simultaneously and gently twisting her head towards the right.

    With his chin gently on top of her head, he was able to sense how hard he could push the head comfortably forward. After about 60 seconds, Jackie’s head was pushed forward and in a somewhat awkward looking forward and twisted position.
    He then gently released her from this “stretch” and let her lay her head flat again for about a minute in a relaxed position. He then switched hands and did the same exacting technique pushing her head forward and twisting it to the left.
    [This Message was Edited on 04/04/2008]
  11. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Carron,

    Good to hear from you. I haven't yet talked to Michael Hane about this, but I look forward to doing so at some point. It sure seems like these two therapies could be very complementary to each other.

    I definately want to pursue this treatment for myself. The following excerpt from Dr. Stuart Marmorstein's article has me quite intrigued:

    "The Dura extends out into the eye sockets. After covering the optic nerves, the Dura becomes the white part of the eye (sclera). Dural tension may contribute to vision problems. Many patients have reported clearer vision after Bio Cranial treatment."

    I have almost constant chronic pain in my eyeballs, especially at the base of the nose and extending outward underneath the eyebrows to the outer areas of the eye. I massage this area several times a day and night. It's quite common for me to wake up with a headache emanating from this area, and only by massaging it am I able to get back to sleep.

    Although I've experienced signficant improvement with this pain from Atlas Profilax and other cranial techniques, I feel there's still more that I feel that can be done.

    I was at a bodywork appointment yesterday (I splurge once or twice a year on this) and mentioned to my practitioner about my research. She started to do a kind of technique where she was holding a point at the base of my nose and started doing some tapping on my head (all very lightly).

    I suddenly became aware of some deep pains sort of shooting through this whole area from my eyes to my brain. (Perhaps that's part of the reason why my brain went on a hiatus today).

    So yes, this seems like the next step for me. Unfortunately, the nearest practitioner is in Sisters, Oregon (200 miles across the mountains) or Portland (300 miles up the valley). Sigh! Tires me out just to think about it. But, I guess, it'll happen when it's supposed to.

    Hope you are doing well. I'm actually doing somewhat better (always relative) as the Spring keeps springing. I think I remember that you had a similar pattern.

    Warm regards, Wayne
    [This Message was Edited on 04/04/2008]
  12. GigglePoet

    GigglePoet New Member

    HI Wayne~
    I am so glad you defined the Bio Cranial therapy and I am glad it is not the one I was talking about. I am so sorry for the pain in your eyes. That is horrible and so sorry you have had the headaches so severly as well. I so hope you can get help with this new treatment. Do come and tell us if you do it if it helped you!

    Your friend GigglePoet
  13. cct

    cct Member

    I have similar eye pain. I should say eye-ball pain. This pain seems to be most dominant on my left side. I also have an abundance of vision problems that seem to come and go.

    Just recently (last six months), I have started to massage my eyeball (eye lid closed!) in an effort to relieve some of the pain. The massage does make a small, possitive, difference.

    I attributed this eye pain to brain inflammation that was putting too much pressure on my eyeball. Maybe the real problem is the Dura.

    With the intense head and neck pain that I experience, I am wondering if part of the problem could be constricted dura mater. The description of constricted dura mater sure would explain the type of pain that I have been experiencing.

    I have been complaining to my doctor for 20 years that it feels like my brain is too big for my skull. (He just looks at me and laughs.) Maybe my skull . . .the dura mater . . .is too small, too constricted, for my brain!

    Please let me know what Michael has to say about this treatment concept as soon as you have had a chance to discuss the issue with him.

    Wishing you all the best,

  14. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Doxygirl,

    Thanks for writing. RE: "In the meantime...the procedure you are talking about is completly seperate from the AP correct?"

    *** Yes, Bio Cranial Therapy and Atlas Profilax are two separate modalities that work very differently. Atlas Profilax is a one-time Atlas (C1 or uppermost vertebra) alignment, while the Bio Cranial affects the Dura Mater which is a sheath that surrounds the brain and major nerves emanating from the brainstem. And as Jam338 mentioned, this is NOT a one-time adjustment, but a treatment that generally requires several follow up visits.

    In case you're interested, Michael Hane has just completed a website describing his work with Atlas Profilax. Perhaps just browsing his website will give you a greater sense of how much of a priority you might want to make this for yourself. You can get there by clicking <a href="">here</a>.

    My take is that if we continue to think about things, long after we first considered doing something, it usually means that it is something we should followup on if possible.

    I wish you the best in making this happen for yourself if that's what you choose to do. The way I see it, lots of upside potential, with the cost and effort with little improvement being about the worst of the downside. Perhaps a bit of a gamble, but a very reasonable gamble based on my own knowledge and experience with AP. And if you do this, do please let us know how it went! :)

    Kind Regards, Wayne

    P.S. Michael's next visit to Ashland (S. Oregon / N. California area) is tentatively set for June....Fri 6th-Sun 8th.
    [This Message was Edited on 04/08/2008]
  15. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Lisette,

    I always appreciate hearing from you. Not only do we seem to speak the same language (albeit sometimes one of agony), but I also enjoy your sense of humor. Thanks for coming by for a visit!

    RE: "Even though my sacrum is more aligned and less hypermobile, they seem to notice that my upper body and skull seems are usually tense and locked up."

    *** My cranial sacral therapist (also ND and DC) tried for months to get my cranials to move, and finally decided he needed to use a rather invasive technique to make some shifts.

    This technique, which is a rather old and was taught in Osteopathic Colleges in years past, involves inserting a type of specialized balloon up into the sinuses, and then inflating it so as to expand the sinuses and move the cranials.

    He reserves this therapy for patients whose cranials are often too locked to move with regular cranial sacral work. I don’t know the exact name of the method, but another practitioner took this old method, modified it, and now calls it neurocranial restructuring (NCR). So you could get more information on it by googling NCR.

    A friend of mine sustained a head injury several years ago, and was slowly descending into CFS over a period of many months. She heard about NCR, had four sessions in four days, and soon found herself about 80% improved. Another man who accompanied her on her trip to Washington state had experienced epileptic seizures since childhood when he was struck in the head by a falling picture frame. After having the NCR, he no longer had seizures.

    I've now done the Atlas Profilax and the NCR, both of which are pretty non-traditional medical approaches. Doing both of them has proven to be invaluable for me. I used to feel like my head was in a vice grip, and sometimes felt I could hardly take it anymore. That feeling is now mostly gone. But there's still enough left for me to continue to search for other helpful therapies.

    Regarding the Dura Mater -- The more I reflect on it, the more I feel it is likely more amenable to some energetic medicine approaches than say a misaligned atlas or locked cranials would be. So I've decided to watch some of the DVDs we have here on EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique), and will try this out before I move onto the Bio Cranial Therapy. Mucho cheaper, and quite possibly more effective.

    RE: "So, how do you see these two therapies working together? Do you still feel the AP is the way to go first, or does biocranial method/doctor strike you better for the long haul?"

    *** I have the perspective that AP is probably the optimal therapy to do before almost all others. I just think that it has the potential to significantly enhance the benefits of other therapies, including the Bio Cranial Therapy.

    Now, to the "other end" of the dura mater matter. There is another structural adjustment technique that my ND/DC uses that may be of interest. I'm planning to discuss this more in depth with him the next time I see him, and will post more about this when I learn more.

    By the way, I didn't think your post was either windy or disorganized. It rather reminded me of the way I often think, something like: "What about this, or that, or maybe then, or perhaps not until, but you never know, and what if I combined..." Not necessarily coherent in the strictest sense of the word, but somehow understandable in a somewhat mysterious sort of way. Isn't it nice to come here and have people understand you? :)

    Kind regards, Wayne
    [This Message was Edited on 04/09/2008]
  16. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Jam,

    Thanks much for your contributions here on this thread. I am aware that Bio Cranial Therapy generally extends out for weeks, months or even longer. I don't know how I would make this happen if I had to travel, but it does seem possible to get to the point of only having to make visits every several months or so.

    By the way, I know you sometimes mention about not being able to remember and being brainfogged, etc. But you know, I find you to be mostly coherent and understandable. Of course, it could be that you're also doing this mysterious sort of cognition that I alluded to in my note to Lisette. Wouldn't it be funny if somebody came to visit our CFS/FM board here and decided we were all writing in code? LOL

    Thanks again Jam. :)

  17. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Carron,

    I've been wondering a fair amount about eye pain and the whole dura mater thing. According to iridology, there are nerve endings in the eye that correspond to all other parts of the body. I would guess similar to reflexology points on the hands and the feet.

    If our eyes are in constant pain, wouldn't that have an aggravating effect on the nerve endings in the eyes that then leads out to the rest of the body? Does this mean I'm not responsible for the aggravation I sometimes feel with "things"? :) Hmmm, I don't think responsibility is quite that easy to get out of!

    Your description of your ongoing eye, head and neck pain almost makes me think you might be an even better candidate for trying Bio Cranial Therapy than me. And I think I'm a good candidate.

    In the mean time, have you by any chance ever heard of the reflexology exercise that can help a lot with neck pain? In essence, where the big toe connects to the foot corresponds to where the head connects to the neck and torso.

    Hold your left foot steady with your left hand, take hold of your left big toe with your right hand, and then twirl it. Slowly and methodically. You will likely hear and feel various kinds cracking as tension begins to release in the area. I would do it for at least 2-3 minutes, then go to the other foot.

    I did this once for an ongoing very stiff neck that showed no signs of letting up, even after ten days. After twirling each foot for 10-15 minutes one night, my stiff neck was 90% improved when I woke up the next morning. To this day, I twirl each toe in the morning for about a minute as part of my energetic exercise routine.

    I'll definately let you know when I get around to talking with Michael about this. I suspect he'll find it interesting. Perhaps he's already heard of it. I know he is very encouraging of people to follow up Atlas Profilax with various kinds of therapies such as this.

    Kind regards, Wayne
    [This Message was Edited on 04/09/2008]
  18. desertlass

    desertlass New Member

    I understand both of you perfectly fine! :)

    Yes, I am so glad I can come here and be understood.

    I think there is incoherent, and then there is a more stream-of-consciousness style, and I think we do more of the second.

    I am trying to allow people to see my thought processes, as I try to make decisions.

    Some people are able to point out where I might have made a misstep, or help me connect things a little quicker. (Like the tesseract in "A Wrinkle in Time"-- if you know what I am talking about, then we REALLY speak the same language.)

    Okay, Wayne. I made a breakthrough last night. I feel the end of my nose stinging, which is what happens to me when something is really important-- it's like a precursor to crying, or something, but in a good way.

    I am going to turn 40 this summer. My best friend planned a big weekend getaway for her 40th. My husband's best friend and he went on a much deserved hiking trip for their 40th. Now it's my turn, and I thought, poor, poor me. I cain't go nowheres. I guess I'll just lay here in this ol' bed and have me a pity party fer mah birthday.

    And then last night I thought, H#LL, NO! I am going to see the Wizard for my 40th!! Our family vacation is just going to have to be getting me there to Nevada City, and staying in whatever nice hotel is nearby-- hopefully there is one, dh and the kids can enjoy the pool, etc., and I will get a massage at their spa as he suggests and SLEEEEEP, and order room service.

    If it all ends in nothing, then at least we had a nice time.

    But I just don't feel that this will all end in nothing. This just feels right, because of how it uses a form of 'indirect muscle energy technique' that osteopaths use. This just seems like a more focused way of doing it, with a more specific goal.

    You are the first to know!

    I AM going to do it! I threw my hat over the fence and told someone!

    Thank you Jam for your wealth of info on the Biocranial work.

    I really do hope CMTs are trained in this-- as long as they would were certified from the right place. Those of us who need bodywork regularly, are really stuck.

    It is so difficult to do, and often expensive, but so important.

    I realized that if I had my way-- money were no object, and a magical pumpkin coach could transport me whether I was in a flare or not, I would have one treatment a week of

    1. osteopathic adjustment, and after a week
    2. stretching-intensive massage, then
    3. lymph massage, then
    4. reflexology

    I would like to throw in "day at the spa" but, you know, I still haven't heard from my agent about the movie rights to my best-seller dahling, so I'll have to wait on that one ;)

    All the best to the fellow bodyworkers and may our pain be diminished.

  19. Chootik

    Chootik New Member

    and loved it!

    Not sure if this is the same, but my body felt so good and relaxed. It was amazing. I def. will have more of this.

  20. connieaag

    connieaag New Member

    My daughter had both this afternoon. The Biocranial Therapy hurt a bit when she stretched her neck, and gave her more of a headache than she had when she went in, but after an hour felt pretty good. She also did the Craniobiotic which is touching glass tubes filled with water and I think some type of metalic substance that is weighted to correspond to various bacteria, viruses, pollens, etc. You touch the vile with one finger and hold out the opposite arm. The chiropractor pushes down on her arm. If she could resist her, then her body didn't react to that vile. If her arm fell down because she couldn't resist her, it meant she had that bacteria in her body. She made it to only the second tube! I guess there were about 50 in each of three cases to test! It represented about 40 types of bacteria. She also went on to tubes 3 and 4 and she could resist those, so she went back to #2 and treated her.

    She then had her touch the vile #2 while she lightly tapped on her head pretty much all over, to somehow help the brain recognize that bacteria.

    Anyway, after the treatment, she was able to resist her when she repeated the test. She said she could have a herx from it --- but it will be hard to tell as she started Lyme treatment this week too and was already herxing from that and the rain. SHe said she would retest at the same vile on Monday and she may need to repeat with that tube, or if her body had re-recognzied that/those bacteria, then she moves on until she can't resist another vile and she repeats the treatment until she goes through all of them. It basically moves the bacteria, virus or allergen from her head, sinuses, heart, lungs... and she may need to do it (tapping) on her stomach areas to clear those too. I guess she doesn't want to do to much at a time.

    So it was pretty cool, but I am into that type of thing!
    I posted the website for it above, but this doctor did both Biocranial Therapy and Craniobio.

    Yes, it is $70 a visit, and she said we could go 2 times a week or once a week. We chose 2 times to speed up treatment.


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