Calcium Discussion

Discussion in 'General Health & Wellness' started by jaminhealth, Nov 13, 2013.

  1. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    I have a calcium quandry discussion going on with some friends and want to post this info here, it's good info as new research is forever happening. Here is a wealth of information the NEED for Vit K for bone health:

    (((Linda posted several times this past January to the NTH-Adrenals list about K - it's necessary for getting calcium, as well as D, into bone. Weston price has articles about D, A and K. I take these together, and switched from plain Jarrow MK-7 to Life Extension's multi K formula.

    ""Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox" by Dr. Kate Rheaume-Bleue, published at the end of 2011.

    Vitamin K was identified in the early 1930s and it was recognized that there were two distinct forms, designated K1 (phylloquinone) and K2 (menaquinone). K1 from the beginning was known to be involved in coagulation. It was not until 1975 that any of the distinct properties of K2 were discovered, not until 1997 that its connection to the healthy deposition of calcium in the body was reported, and only in 2007 was it recognized that deficiency of K2 was common in developed countries

    The particular health benefits of vitamin K2 involve getting calcium into bone and teeth and keeping it out of soft tissue including arteries. Children of vitamin K2 replete mothers are more likely to have strong, straight teeth. Research so far, which is still in its infancy, has shown implications for cancer, gum disease, cardiovascular disease, bone strength and fracture risk, varicose veins, insulin resistance, and skin wrinkling.

    Unlike a hundred years ago, deficiency of vitamin K2 is rampant today. Vitamin K2 is synthesized by bacteria. This can happen to a very small extent in our own guts, but much more successfully by bacteria in the fermentation of food, particularly certain cheeses and natto (fermented soy), not something most Westerners will want to eat. Vitamin K2 is also synthesized in the gut of animals which are grass fed and passed on to us in the animal products we eat such as egg yolks and butter and the fat in meat. Unfortunately, in the US few food animals are NOT grass fed any more. So the change in how food animals are raised and what they are fed has changed the vitamin K2 content of the foods we eat.

    In addition, the ill-advised campaign against consumption of animal fats which has gone on for decades has exacerbated K2 deficiency. In its place, unsaturated fats, which have been hydrogenated to give them shelf life and the solid characteristics of animal fats (known as trans fats), cause untold harm.

    Over the last decade, there has been a lot of research on Vitamin D and the many conditions that deficiency of D causes or exacerbates. The research, however, frequently does not hold up when levels of D are quite high and because of this there is a great deal of controversy with one camp insisting D only needs to be around 30 to 40 ng/mL (75-100 nmol/L) and the other insisting optimal is 70 to 90 ng/mL (175-225 nmol/L).

    Among the many roles vitamin D plays in the body, it improves absorption of calcium from both food and supplements. There is no question that older individuals, particularly women, need calcium for bone strength. However calcium supplementation alone has not consistently been shown to improve fracture risk and osteoporosis. There also has been observed a connection between conditions of poor bone strength and excess calcium in soft tissue which contributes to hardening of the arteries and other health conditions. Research has shown that the key to getting calcium where it needs to be and keeping it out of where it should not be is vitamin K2.

    Vitamin A has a great deal of controversy surrounding its possible toxicity. It is interesting that in the past, it was common for people to regularly eat beef liver which has over 27,000 i.u. of Vitamin A in a three-ounce cooked portion. Just like vitamin D, vitamin A needs vitamin K2 to do its job properly, and unless someone has liver disease or abuses alcohol, as much as 25,000 i.u. has been shown not to cause toxicity. However, what will make large amounts of vitamin A toxic is a deficiency of vitamin D or vitamin K2. These three fat soluble vitamins are all necessary for each one individually to maximize its potential. Supplementing vitamin A should be done cautiously, factoring in how much A is in the foods you eat. A total of about 8-10,000 i.u.s a day average is a good goal.

    The Rheaume-Bleue book makes clear that the effects of the deficiency of vitamin K2 in the modern diet is the cause for much of the controversy and confusion surrounding vitamins A and D.

    Almost everyone who is eating a normal diet obtains enough vitamin K1. It is available in many foods, particularly greens, as well as fruit and nuts. It is also recycled in the body, so is rarely deficient. In addition, a deficiency is obvious because there will be excess bleeding instead of appropriate clotting.

    Everyone, and most particularly those supplementing vitamin D, should be specifically eating foods high in Vitamin K2 or supplementing it. The next area of question is which of the available Vitamin K2 forms should be used as supplements. There are 14 different forms of Vitamin K2, denoted MK-with a number. The two most studied and most available forms of vitamin K2 are MK-4 and MK-7. MK-4 is synthetic and has a half life of only a few hours. It has, however, been studied and is being used as an osteoporosis treatment in Japan. The therapeutic dose is 45 mgs (milligrams), as three 15 mg doses at 8 hour intervals. MK-7 is extracted from natto and has a half life of a few days, so once a day dosing is appropriate. I have read recommended doses of 90 to 240 mcgs (micrograms) of K2 MK-7 a day, but there is no known toxicity. Women post menopause are probably better off at the higher doses. I am sure that as research on Vitamin K2 continues, there will be more support for -- or revision to -- these recommendations.

    The exception to supplementing would be anyone who is taking prescription blood thinners like warfarin (Coumadin®), who should take any vitamin K only under supervision of a physician. However, there have been studies that suggest supplementing with vitamin K2 may actually have a stabilizing effect for someone on warfarin.

    Anyone who wishes to learn in detail about the science behind this can read the Rheaume-Bleue book and these links "

    Linda also posted these comments:
    "If you are taking Vitamin K2 MK-4, it has a very short half life and your dose should be split into 3 doses at 8 hour intervals. Vitamin K2 MK-7 has the longer half life and can be dosed once a day."
    "Recommendations for Vitamin K2 MK-7 range from 90 to 240 mcgs. I think post meno women or anyone taking high doses of D should be at the higher end. Either softgel or liquid should be fine. Just needs to be in fats."
    "The Thorne liquid is MK-4 which is the short half life K2. It is the form used as an osteoporosis treatment in Japan, dosed three times a day. I happen to take it (5 mgs 3x) because of osteoporosis risk, but I also take Vitamin K Complex that has 200 mcg each K2 MK-7 and K1."


    There are so many schools of thought on dosing out there...I'm 75 deal with OA and Fibro and hip replacement mess.. I've read over the years that magnesium is even more critical than calcium. I take 500mg Food Based Calcium (Rainbow Light) and upwards of 1200mg magnesium complex spread thru the day. Also take 5K+ Vit D3 per day and adding complex K2 for better absorption...there is a lot of new research on this K vitamin. Saw my rheumy yesterday for acupuncture and she keeps harping on I'm not taking ENOUGH calcium...My last labs on calcium showed 9.2 on a range of 8-10.5. I talked to my integrative MD about this calcium issue and she agrees we need more mag and not as much calcium.
    I wonder if my calcium gets to the bones or is floating around in the blood.
    This is so complexing as I've heard some bad stories on calcium deposits, and a friend even had calcium deposits on her thyroid (doc told her to take Tums and she did this a long time) bad Info....she ended up having her thyroid removed....
    Any strong advice from you guys, I know we're all different but lab ranges are lab ranges....and again so much info out there and not all in synch. jam

    Last edited: Nov 13, 2013
  2. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    Hi Jam - sorry, this is too complex for me. I just recently read about a study that, contrary to an earlier study, found that calcium supplementation did NOT contribute to heart disease. So whaddya gonna do!

    My juicer arrives today, hope to start using it tomorrow. I know certain greens are high in calcium and think I will make sure to use some of those.

    I don't know the answer for you, hopefully someone like Ian will weigh in here for you -

  3. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    The crux of it Mary, is the latest research tells us we need Vit K to get calcium into the bones....Dr. Gruenn talked about this at least 3 yrs ago at the SM Library where he lectures to the community. I take a K complex with my 500mg Calcium (rainbow light) and my D3 and lots of magnesium.....

    Good luck with your juicer, I made up a batch yesterday in my blender and will drink the other half right now....forgot to add cucumber so will add some to this second half...jam

    Too much calcium can cause deposits...I like the food based Rainbow light product.
  4. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    Adding more to this subject:

    On this subject, I bought a little booklet probably a good 10 yrs ago and read it, highlighted it, lent it out....I have not picked it up in a long time but did today and breezing thru it. It's called "User's Guide to Calcium and Magnesium.." Nan Fuchs, PhD...I love this little book and I learned so much from it....the need for more magnesium and K to get the calcium to the bones...The book is still out there and available, there may even be updated editions, I don't know....but the one I have is copyrighted 2002...
    Dr. Fuchs doesn't like the "white" foods for calcium intake...she talks about other foods and especially green leafy veggies, nuts, beans, etc....very much against homogenized cow's's all processed.....and they go on to say "we are the only living beings that drink milk once weaned from mothers".... I'll never forget that and it's true....the ADA has sold a big bill of goods on dairy.
    Says many do not need 1000-1500mg calcium and my rheumy pushes for this...I resist....I really like the absorbable Rainbow Light food based 500 mg tab. And I get calcium in some of my foods....but I take much more magnesium vs's critical and many are deficient in mag.
    She talks about the need for manganese, boron for strong bones...I take both.
    Absorption is key in the calcium to the bones and she also hits on HCL (stomach acid) and it's needed more as we age....
    So Vit K, magnesium and HCL for many to get that calcium where it is supposed to go, the bones....
    Pathetically TOO MANY are not getting calcium to the bones where it needs to be....I have 2 friends who fell recently and both broke their friend has no clue on any of this including Vit D, the other friend know a little more as I directed her on Vit D and magnesium...but she knows nothing about the need for K.

    I meant to buy HCL (Mary) today but forgot, I will get it soon maybe locally.

    Another point made in the book is:

    There is compellng evidence to suggest that high amounts of calcium are not necessary and may even contribute to health problems...If you're taking a "well absorbed" form, yu may need much less than the amount most people (docs) recommend. Many calciums are not being absorbed into the bones.....that is why I like the Rainbow Light Food Based tab, it breaks easy with my fingers, so I believe it's getting absorbed good.

    Look for signs of calcium excess.. If you are taking too much calcium, you have any muscle cramps, "fibromyalgia", irregular heartbeat, restless leg syndrome or PMS...In these cases, symptoms may improve by lowering supplemental calcium to 500mg a day. This from Dr. Fuchs....

    Again, the critical need for magnesium and Vit K to get the calcium to the bones, t hey are the delivery system for the calcium. Then too, consider the foods that are calcium based....leafy greens are huge. Salmon and sardines...

    I've had a great interest in this subject for many years and love the little book I mentioned above. jam