Can I take Anti-Viral(gancyclovir) and Transfer Factors?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by LISALOO, Jun 25, 2008.


    LISALOO New Member

    WOuld it be bad to combine a transfer factor and an anti-viral? Would a transfer factor keep an anti-viral from doing it's work (modulating my immune system instead of killing off pathogens?) Thanks,
    [This Message was Edited on 06/25/2008]
  2. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I wrote a long post on this a while back and actually managed to find it! Here it is below.


    If you just take a regular transfer factor (aka "colostrum"), it may make you feel better and probably won't make you feel worse.

    If you take a transfer factor targeted at herpes family viruses, it probably will increase your die-off.

    I personally think that targeted TF and antivirals could be a good thing, if the goal is to keep the AV dose low. I certainly wouldn't pair it with anything like the MOntoya protocol though.


    Combining TF (or Virastop) and Antiviral Drugs 07/27/07 07:29 PM

    This is my brief metaphor for my understanding of how AV's (Valtrex/Famvir/Valcyte/etc.) and transfer factor work.

    Usually, herpes viruses (bad guys) hide out in apartments (regular cells of the body) where the police (T-cells) can't find them.

    AV's put locks on the doors of the apartments so that the bad guys can't hide in them. They thus are forced to spend their time out on the streets where they are easier to find.

    However, even when they're roaming the streets, the cops aren't necessarily going to kill them all right away. There are a lot of people out on the streets, and the cops don't know automatically which ones to arrest.

    Transfer factor is like giving the cops a "Most Wanted" sheet with photos of the bad guys on it. After looking at the photos, the cops can find the bad guys more easily and then try to arrest them (or, more specifically, gun them down since the bad guys do not go quietly into that good night).

    Note that the transfer factor and AV thus work synergistically.

    If the criminals have good hiding places, it doesn't help a whole lot if cops know what they look like. The bad guys do have to go out sometimes anyway, but they generally don't do it for long.

    On the other hand, if the cops don't know what the bad guys look like, the bad guys can survive pretty long without being caught even they have to live out on the streets.

    Based on this, it sounds at first like transfer factor and AV's always should be used together.

    My own experience is that the only problem is that it jacks up the fighting a whole lot. It's like the cops and the bad guys are having a huge ongoing war, with lots of shooting back and forth.

    After a little while, my body got worn out from all that fighting. I was having a hard enough time dealing with the bloodshed when cops happened to run into the bad guys coincidentally. I've got a lot bad guys in my body, and the Famvir seemed to be pretty effective at locking up their hiding places.

    If the cops feel obliged to kill every single bad guy they find (and since they're very conscientious they actually do), they don't get any time to go get donuts and rest. Rest is important.

    For someone on a lower dose of AV than their body can handle, progress may be slow. The cops thus may not have much to do with just the AV. If you're not getting a die-off reaction, you can guess that your cops aren't too overworked.

    In that case, maybe giving them a "Most Wanted" list would be helpful. There wouldn't be any additional bad guys on the streets as a result, but at least the cops would be really efficient at killing off the ones that were there.

    I'm not absolutely sure this is the right way to look at the situation. I made up the analogy myself, based on my understanding of how transfer factor and AV's work.

    I've not read or heard about many people taking transfer factors and AV's together, but my doctor said that it was fine to do so "if I could tolerate it." I've no reason to believe they would be less effective if used together, anyway.

    If you try TF and AV's together, you will want to get transfer factor that is targeted at the viruses you're trying to kill. Some products target EBV, for instance.

    Hopefully other people will chip in their thoughts if they have ideas about the topic. I don't think a lot of people have thought about this combination a lot, and so a discussion might be interesting.


    Note: It's my understanding that antiviral enzymes like Virastop can dissolve viruses only when they are "out of hiding."

    They thus seem as though they should have the same effect as transfer factor on the herpes family viruses (e.g. having a bigger effect when used in combination with a prescription antiviral such as Valtrex, Famvir or Valcyte).

    The best analogy I can think of offhand is that Virastop is like a chemical weapon, killing off all the people (viruses) roaming about while leaving the structures (buildings) intact.

    Again, people hiding out in their apartments (with the windows sealed with duct tape) are less likely to get killed. If you can force them out in the open, then the fumes will get them.


    All this is related to the repeated board comment that "AV's don't kill viruses, they just stop them from replicating":

    As for the "prevents viruses from replicating".....that's true as far as it goes, but it's a little bit simplified. (I've read a lot about this and feel certain I've got it right insofar as anyone does. It may be that scientists themselves do not understand how AV's work---as they don't understand how SSRI's work---but that's something else.)

    In order to replicate, viruses enter cells of the human body. They then plug themselves into the cell and use the energy in order to replicate. After a while, all the replicated viruses (sometimes thousands from one cell) burst out, each trying to find a new cell.

    AV's keep viruses from hooking onto the cells. It thus is true that they cannot replicate.

    However, if a virus cannot hook onto a cell, it is "left hanging" (this is specific language from medical texts!). It thus desperately moves around the body trying to find another cell that it can hook onto.

    During the time that it is "swimming around" trying to find a new home, it can be seen by T-cells and B-cells. (Those immune cells cannot see herpes viruses when they are hiding and replicating, since herpes viruses keep infested cells from producing a protein that alerts T-cells and B-cells that they are in there. Natural Killer Cells would know by some sort of "magic" that the herpes viruses are hiding in cells, but unfortunately CFS patients have deactivated NK Cells.)

    As soon as T-cells and B-cells see those homeless viruses, they go after I describe in my analogy about the cops and the criminals. (The T-cells and B-cells are the cops, whereas the herpes viruses are the bad guys. I am leaving NK Cells out of the analogy, since they are disabled.)

    Hope this makes sense. It's not easy to explain succcinctly, which is why people get a bit confused about it.
  3. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    Back when I was doing all this, there was fear that the AV's might destroy the transfer info but now docs realize that isn't the case and most feel they can be taken together. I did Famvir for 1 1/2 years and stopped when I started the TF's. The targeted TF's pack such a wallop that I could only stand to sprinkle a bit of the powder from the capsules under my tongue, increasing over time. It was a month before I could take an entire capsule. Once the body starts fighting the targeted pathogens, the immune response and dieoff can be very harsh. There can be a lot of purging and detox, along with the fluish feeling and swollen lymph nodes.

    What is important is addressing our chronic infections. I do not believe we can heal as long as we play hotel to bugs which use our bodies to meet all their needs so they can replicate and really take us over. I believe these pathogens can actually cause increased fibrin in our bloodstreams to decrease oxygen and provide a place for them to hide out from our immune systems. That is why it can be very helpful to take Heparin to rid the blood of the fibrin. Again, when the Heparin begins to work, pathogens are exposed to the immune system and the ensuing immune response, dieoff, and detox can be very harsh. It seems there is nothing easy about ridding ourselves of these wee beasties but I believe we must do it.

    Love, Mikie
  4. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    It's my understanding from reading this board that the FFCs clinics used antivirals and transfer factor together.

    I believe they called it double targetted therapy. Probably someone else pioneered this approach.. but whatever..they used it on PWCs.

    So in theory it appears to be a good combo. Flush out the bugs, and then pump up your body's immune system with TFs.

    The only thing wrong with this plan, I suspect, is that the immune system in so many PWCs is compromised, so it's trying to fight with one hand behind its back.

    (Just look at the most recent thread on Natural Killer Cell Function...that'll show you how impaired that part of the immune system is in some PWCs.)

    Plus, if that PWC has been long-term sick and has a huge body burden of pathogens.. virii (viruses) or're putting a huge load on the body.

    If you follow Rich Van K's work or Amy Yasko's, as I do, then you may be of the opinion that the immune system dysfucntion in PWCs can be traced back to a methylation cycle block.

    Basically, they argue that the block in the biochemistry impairs T cell function, and that in part, opens the door for the reactivated viruses we see in PWCs.

    Yasko leaves aggressive viral killing, including what she calls the "optional" use of Valtrex, until stage 3 of her program.

    My understanding is that she wants to lift the methylation block, and improve the body's T-cell response before moving to viral killing.

    This is just my interpretation and it would be great if Rich or someone more knowledgeable chimed in here.

    One of the questions that jumps out at me is hwo important is the T cell response versus the B cell arm of the immune system when it comes to beating viruses into latency?

    I need to study this. haven't got aroudn to it.

    So if they're right, this is a crucial prerequisite for restoring immunity.

    In my mind that is why Dr Lerner's patients are on antivirals for 5-7 years. Their own immune systems cannot keep the viruses in latency...

    Anyway, long-winded way of saying that at this point in time I think you have to fix the methylation cycle in addition to using antivirals or abx if you hope to restore immunity.

    Interestingly, even Rich on a recent post on Wayne's MMS thread, said he was coming round to the idea that lifting the methylation cycle block wasn't enough and PWCS would have to use something to kill viruses adn bacteria.

    I guess his previous position was that if you restored teh body's immune system, it should be able to take care of the backlog of bugs by itself.

    I did run this argument by my CFS specialist Joe Brewer once and he said he thought it was important to keep taking the antivirals because the viruses disturbed "metabolic processes" in the cell.

    Just my 2 cents ..

  5. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Delia....yes, I agree.

    I'm putting my money (for the time being) on the idea that the toxins are compromising my immune system. Hopefully if I can lift the toxic burden, I will be better able to make good use of the antivirals and antibiotics (drug or "other") or maybe even get rid of a lot of those bugs on my own.

    The only thing is that I am working on biotoxins as well as "regular" toxins. (Now, if I could just get rid of those quasi-estrogen toxins, I think I'd have all the bases covered. Unfortunately, it seems like the only way to get those out very efficiently is by breast feeding. Is there a way to start making breast milk without actually having a child, I wonder?)

    Anyway, I had a bunch of those tests done prior to taking an antiviral for six months last year (and getting big die-off the whole time). After the six months, those measures weren't very improved.

    It will be interesting to see if I seem to have made any headway when I get closer to the end of the detox road. If so, that would provide real hope that we're on the right track.

    I actually don't feel like I need that kind of reinforcement that I'm on the right track, but it's certainly good to have the data to share with others.
  6. marti_zavala

    marti_zavala Member

    "(Now, if I could just get rid of those quasi-estrogen toxins, I think I'd have all the bases covered. Unfortunately, it seems like the only way to get those out very efficiently is by breast feeding. Is there a way to start making breast milk without actually having a child, I wonder?)"

    Yes. Adoptive mothers do this all the time. A friend of mine went through this. There is a prescription medication that you get - starts with an M. Then add fenugreek and some other herbs. Then she used a pumping machine to stimulate milk production. She was ready when the adoption came through.

  7. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    What tests did you run Lisa? I'm not clear.

    LISALOO New Member

    Thank you, thankyou everyone who responded. I went to my naturopath yesterday and she's giving me immune helpers too like colostrum, so I'll see how I do on that first.
    [This Message was Edited on 06/26/2008]
  9. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Rnase-L, NKC Activity: very poor prior to drug, no improvement.

    HHV6: mildly elevated (640) prior to drug. Split sample sent to two labs afterwards; RedLabs found no HHV6, the other lab found a significant amount. (I've heard RedLabs' quality may not be great.)

    Rnase-L LMW (from RedLabs): Not tested prior to drug, pretty high after the drug.

    CMV: Not detectable prior to or after the drug. (This was elevated at one point in my history though.)

    EBV: Not reactivated prior to or after the drug. (This was reactivated at one point in my history.)

    Apoptosis: Quite high prior to drug. Unfortunately, ImmunoSciences wasn't doing that test when I stopped the drug and so I don't have a comparison point.

    Alpha Interferon: This is a measure of total viral load, and was extremely elevated before the drug. Again, it was an ImmunoSciences test and thus not available afterwards.

    I feel like I'm still doing a whole lot of detoxing (biotoxins and other toxins) at present but am making good progress. It will be interesting to see if these numbers (especially the Rnase and NKC activity) change the next time I have them done. I will be very inclined to credit the detoxification and mold toxin avoidance if so.
  10. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    Ok, Thanks.
  11. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    is yr doc the Dr H that MoJoey sees?

    Boy,he's aggressive, huh?

    Can you say more about the TFs?

    I used to use Immune Care 64 but the company stopped making it. It was a heavy hitter.

    Now i'm using Chisholm Labs Immune Factors. Much more subtle.
  12. ladybugmandy

    ladybugmandy Member

    bravo to you for finding a good doctor!

    good luck hon!
  13. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    It took most of us years, if not decades, to get really sick and it takes time to turn our bodies around. Having come out the other side of the Rabbit Hole, I can tell y'all that as these treatments start working synergystically, progress picks up exponentially.

    I am not what I would consider well--yet. It's a work in progress but in seven years, I've gone from bedridden most of the time, on Morphine, and so sick most of the time that all I could do was go from the bed to the bathroom, holding onto the wall, to being able to work part time.

    Even in the beginning, I had some good days but it's taken longer than I ever imagined to get this far. The biggest problem I have is managing my energy, my latent infections, and my immune system's reaction every time I am exposed to something. The real progress came when I started taking ABX, AV's, TF's, and Heparin injections. The immune responses, Herxing, purging, and detox were harsh, but necessary. I am dabbling with the Methylation Protocol and the detox from it are as harsh. I believe I am just now chelating the metals and toxins which remain.

    Each of us probably has different genetic predispositions, infections, toxins, stresses, etc. Still, we all have some common problems and it's great to be able to discuss them, and the treatment options, here. Everything which has helped me to heal is something I first heard of here.

    Love, Mikie
  14. marti_zavala

    marti_zavala Member

    I was well the day before I got sick.

    Active, healthy, working two jobs. then the next day I was bedridden.