CFS/FM: What Exactly Causes Trigger Point Pain?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Slayadragon, Jul 16, 2008.

  1. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Does anyone have the answer to this question?

    I'm under the impression that it's a results of toxins and/or viruses causing inflammation (I guess it's at the points where nerves and muscles join together?), but I don't think I've read much about it.

    I wonder what kind of toxins these are.

    I wonder whether FM/CFS sufferers who get these particularly badly tend to have different characteristics (e.g. previous toxic exposure, other symptoms) than FM/CFS sufferers who get them less.

    I wonder if there are certain things that exacerbate them.

    I wonder if having them swell up and get painful is a good thing (e.g. evidence that the body is successfully removing buried toxins) or bad (e.g. evidence that the body is not doing very well).

    For what it's worse, this is my experience.

    I've had mild trigger point pain throughout my illness, until last year.

    After about five months on an antiviral, I woke up one day with trigger point pain so bad that I could barely walk. That was unprecedented for me.

    It stayed that way for about five days. Then all my trigger point pain disappeared entirely and didn't recur until a few days ago.

    This week I've started a new supplement, brown seaweed. (I use a drink form called Limu.) It gave me really strong detox symptoms (e.g. thirst, strong-smelling urine/stools, guck-y feeling). I started using it because I am trying to rid my body of whatever mold toxins are left in it. (I moved out of my contaminated house six months ago.)

    The trigger point tenderness re-emerged with the usage of the Limu. Having other people press on them really hard relieves the swelling and tenderness, though it also makes me feel weird for a while afterwards.

    It feels like toxins are coming out. Hopefully they're being removed from my body rather than just being moved around. (Does that seem like it's the case?)

    I wonder what kind of toxin might cause trigger point problems. It doesn't seem like it's all toxins, since I've done lots of detox with various things (methylation, cholestyramine for mold, Vitamin C) and not gotten that reaction.

    One possibility seems heavy metals like mercury. The methylation support is supposed to help remove mercury, but I don't get the feeling that it accomplishes this very well. Brown seaweed is said to attach itself to those metals and draw it out, though I don't know how strong the evidence is.

    I think the metals connection is interesting because of Amy Yasko's theory that mercury and other metals bind to viruses in the body. I think that means that if one of those is tackled, the other is disposed of more readily. If so, the disposal of the viruses might have loosened up some mercury so that my body could dispose of it.

    (Hopefully it got disposed of!)

    Another possibility seems to be pesticides or other xenoestrogenic chemicals.

    Or maybe it's something else entirely.

    Thoughts, please???


  2. desertlass

    desertlass New Member

    You know, this topic does not get discussed on this board very much. I think that is because this is a supplement site, and so the pain/muscle issues sometimes get discussed more on other boards. Bodywork is just not a hot topic here, because it's maintenance and not much new comes out about it as compared with biochemistry and genomes and new supplements to try, etc.

    The "Survival Manual" reads pretty much like a CFS book in the places that are not addressing trigger points specifically. There's the whole HPA axis, mitochondrial ATP conversion, sleep issues, etc. We have more of the same issues than we don't. And the problem of peeling back the layers of trauma and injury are as complex.

    If I recall, and I have not read her updated info, so this is fuzzy, is that one of the things that can keep on in a perpetual state of trigger points is hypoglycemia insulin resistant (IR) problems. I no longer remember what, how and why.

    I hope other people add to your query...

    I think that she has looked into trigger points more than anyone else, so she might be a good start for you to help you sort out how they play into your picture.

    I'll be interested to learn what you find out.

    Massage is so difficult for me. I try to keep on top of the really bad ones, but they start up the whole detox problem, which might not work for us that well anyhow.

    Reflexology-- even that administered by my completely unschooled husband from a "pop" book-- has been a helpful thing for me.

    hoping that the head of pain on this hydra gets beaten back for you,


  3. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I remember (even from my coma of last year) your giving me a really nice summary of the difference between trigger point and tender point pain. That was really useful.

    What I can't recall is whether FM sufferers tend to have trigger point pain, or more just tender point.

    I wonder what's in those trigger points that comes out so strongly when they're pushed.

    For me, it's not so much that the points hurt even when they swell. I usually don't even notice them.

    What it seems like is that the energy in my body gets kind of stuck when they swell too much. I wonder if that's part of the "frozen" sensation that I've been attributing to the mold.

    Having someone press hard on the trigger points (or having Dr. Guyer do neural therapy on them) causes me to have serious full-body convulsions. They don't seem bad in themselves, but they are dramatic.

    I do wonder about releasing the toxins too fast though. Maybe they're stuck in the trigger points because that's a relatively "safe" place for them to be stored until the body can get around to removing them on its own.

    I wrote a post to Dr. Amy's Forum about this, but I doubt I'll get anything back. They probably don't know over there either.

    I have found reflexology to be really useful from time to time too.

    This especially was the case when we were in Tokyo and found a place that specialized in this (with the staff all trained in mainland China). They all conferred about the condition of my feet and expressed great concern about the "poison" in my body.

    I knew nothing of toxins back then and thought they were using some kind of TCM jargon (e.g. "damp heat"). Nope. How right they turned out to be!

    Anyway, I had a great trip to rural Japan after that and credited a lot of the success to the reflexology.

    Upon reflection, I now think that most of the reason was because I was away from all mold. The old ryokans in which we stayed aren't real conducive to the growth of poison mold, and we kept our clothes etc. packed away in suitcases.

    Maybe I should move there. America is so "modern" that getting away from all toxic mold seems like an impossible challenge. Most of Japan is like that too, but rural Japan is an exception.

    Of course, there is 10' of snow in the winter in the places we stayed while we were there, but you can't have everything.

    I wish that someone knew more about detoxification. I actually really like being a pioneer, but only with regard to things that are unimportant (like work). This health stuff is a different story.

    I'm really getting tired of being obsessed with it. But at the same time, I feel like if I don't keep thinking about it, I'll never figure it out.

  4. pasara

    pasara New Member

    A few weeks back I posted a link to this article explaining the difference between trigger points and tender points. I found it very helpful. Here is the link again: