CFS: Yeast's Not The Cause, So Why Bother Thinking About It?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Slayadragon, Dec 25, 2007.

  1. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I recently read a comment on another thread that treating for candida is a waste because we need to get to the "causes" of this illness.

    I didn't want to write an answer on that thread because it wasn't what the thread was about.

    Obviously not everyone with classic CFS succeeds in improving at all through candida treatment, just as not everyone with classic CFS improves at all through any other CFS treatment yet put forth.

    I think it is wrong to dismiss (especially offhandedly!) any treatment that has been shown to help a substantial number of people when one is trying to get better. Control of yeast seems to fit into this category.

    Recently a thread on this board asked whether people were treating "chickens" (the causes of their illnesses) or the "eggs" (such as pain and fatigue).

    The "chickens" discussed included a wide variety of factors. It wasn't just viruses or lyme.

    The person who started that thread was munch1958, who has controlled strictly for diet as part of her many-pronged approach (including addressing candida) in order to get from her previous very severe level of of disability to her current 95% of normal functioning.

    It would be nice if Valcyte or some drug proved to be the "answer" for CFS, and that we didn't have to worry about anything else while we were following that course of therapy. Thus far I haven't seen that this illness works that way though.

    The yeast comment troubles me because it makes it seem that yeast is something that should be _rightfully_ ignored, and that anyone who treats for it is wasting their time.

    Considering that many people here have experienced substantial long-term improvement (though obviously not total wellness) just through treating yeast, it seems to me reasonable for anyone with CFS to at least consider that it conceivably might be helpful for them too.

    Functioning at 60% is functioning at 60%, regardless of whether one gets there from antivirals or from some other combination of "lesser" treatments.

    And if we could get to 80% or higher with (say) a combination of antivirals and other treatments, that would be even better.

    Yeast is considered to be an issue for CFS patients by doctors prominent in this field, including those who are fully aware that it is not the cause.

    For instance. Dr. Paul Cheney has talked about the fact that our bodies' relatively anaerobic environments make it especially likely that yeast and other pathogens (like lyme and chlamydia pneumoniae) will grow out-of-control.

    Allowing gut yeast to grow unchecked is undesirable for a number of reasons:

    * It creates gut problems, including "digestive difficulties." Not only is this inconvenient (diarrhea, constipation), it also prevents nutrients from being absorbed from food properly. Some doctors (such as Dr. Kenny de Meirleir) believe that the gut is an integral part of immune functioning, and if so then keeping it in good shape may help us to address other pathogens and/or autoimmune issues as well.

    * If it grows unchecked, it grows into the sinus cavity. Sinus infections are widely known for creating tireness and lethargy even in normal people, and so having it contributing to our "core" fatigue would seem undesirable. (In my case this was especially problematic, since having it pressing up against or possibly growing into my inner ear at one point set off severe spinning sensations from BPPV that made my choices in life to either lie in bed without moving my head, vomit repeatedly, or take strong dangerous medicine basically forever to control the vertigo.)

    * For those who are allergic to candida, it can cause a variety of symptoms such as spaciness and tiredness.

    * It can grow into vaginal infections that (again since candida grows well in the relatively anaerobic environments of our bodies) are extremely difficult to eradicate. Many women on this board have suffered from vaginal yeast infections or vulvadynia (the latter apparently caused by a form of candida other than abicans) continuously for many years.

    Obviously, we all hope that we will be able to eliminate the underlying cause(s) of this yeast overgrowth. Dr. Montoya seems to think that antivirals may be successful at making the environments of our bodies more aerobic, as evidenced by his use on Valcyte patients of the bicycle test commonly used to assess VEGF (vascular endothelial growth factor). Perhaps improvements in the immune system efficiency and effectiveness would allow the body to control yeast better on its own too.

    I for one would be delighted if I didn't have to follow a no-sugar diet, buy expensive probiotics and other supplements, and occasionally take antifungal drugs to control my chronic yeast problem. Hopefully addressing the root causes of my illness will allow me to do stop having to do those things.

    In the meantime, not making every effort to feel as good as I can by treating secondary problems (such as yeast) seems that it would be a mistake. Obviously I want to get totally better in the future, but that doesn't mean that I also don't want to live life as fully as possible now.
  2. mollystwin

    mollystwin New Member

    You have a very good point here and this is a very good post!!!

    I would also like to point out that most of us do have yeast issues, but even for those who do not, a diet low in simple carbs, no sugar, alchol etc is good for immmunity and therefore good for all of us. Sugar lowers immunity and is also inflamatory.

    When I eat simple carbs and sugar I get major brain fog, muscle pain, joint pain and fatigue. This happens when my yeast is in control.

    My doctor advised all his patients to eat like this. Not just his lyme patients, or those with candida, but his cardiac patients and everyone else as well.
    <br>[<i>This Message was Edited on 12/25/2007</i>]
  3. Daisys

    Daisys Member

    I definitely agree with this post, thank you Lisa. The gut is so important to general health, it can't be overstated.

    Even if I got to 100% feeling better, I would avoid too much starches, sugars, chemicals, and, for me, gluten.

    I like how someone put it: Only eat what your great grandmother would recognise. That would be organic, local stuff, sigh...

    I believe if everyone was "cured" (Like they found a pill that would make all our various symptoms go away-ha!) a good diet would still be imperative for continuing good health.

    Look at crowds of the "healthy" people in the US that you see in public places. Some (or many?) may have something infectious or other chronic causes for their health, but many look like they're dying a slow death from their eating habits.

    A lot of the young people, teens and a little older, that I see today look like they have the level of health that I remember middleaged people having back in the 60's. I remember VERY few kids with guts when I was in school (2-3 out of a hundred off hand). Now, I see a large percentage of overweight when I look at a group of young people.

    If they need to clean up their diet, how much more so does anyone with a chronic illness if they want to get healthy.
  4. siebertesther

    siebertesther New Member

    Hi all, What is the best way to be tested for yeast in the gut and also food allergies. My tongue is white and I'm having gut problems as well as nasal allergies. No vaginal infections. Did a long course of Diflucan years ago but it didn't do anything. What can I do by myself? Thanks, Esther
  5. justjanelle

    justjanelle New Member

    seems to me like just one more thing that overloads our sick bodies.

    So what if it's not "the cause" of our fatigue? If I can get rid of even one of the factors making me feel so bad, and make a little improvement from where I am now -- isn't that a good thing? Personally, I'll take any improvement I can get!

    Best wishes,
  6. acer2000

    acer2000 New Member

    The other thing is, you may not have "candida" overgrowth just because you react poorly to carbs. There are other reasons for this, namely gluten intolerance, but also straight up allergy to yeast. I got sick 6 months following a surgery where they toasted me with antibiotics afterwards. My gut was probably non functioning for 6 months, over which time I developed a pretty bad allergy to "bakers yeast and brewers yeast". For a while, everytime I ate bread I'd get more tired, bloated, and gassy. I just assumed it must be "candida" because everyone always talked about it. I talked my doctor into testing me for candida and low and behold I had no registered antibodies to it, it didn't show up at all on my CDSA, and a one month trial of diflucan did nothing to make my symptoms either worse or better. I then had a blood test for food allergies and low and behold I am very allergic to yeast. This also explains my intolerance to alcohol I developed (fermented - brewers yeast), and also the strange phenomenon of being able to eat yeastless cards such as noodles and "unleavened bread or pita" with no GI symptoms.
  7. aftermath

    aftermath New Member

    I am with Munch1958, in that candida albicans looks like an egg at best with regard to this illness.

    Take a look at summaries from International Association for CFS/ME's annual conferences from the past few years. If you look at the names, it's a "who's who" of people involved with this disease, and the current research that is being done.

    For example,
    <a href=""> IACFS/ME 2007</a>

    You won't see the word candida anywhere on the page.

    None of the major researchers appear to be looking toward c.albicans as a cause of ME/CFS.

    Yes, it may very well be an issue in people with otherwise already damaged immune systems. Still, I don't think anyone is out there saying that this appears to be the <i>cause</i> of ME/CFS, in any of the subsets.

    My goal, at least, in making these postings was to make people aware that they need to seek out a mainstream MD who believes in this illness and will treat aggressively early on.
  8. wrthster

    wrthster New Member

    If you look at HIV/Aids patients they suffer from yeast infections quite often and well as many secondary infections as we do. It is not the "yeasts" that cause the AIDS, it is while the immune system is lowered and suseptible they are open to it.

    I think it is an important angle to look at, however many here also have several bacterial and probably parasitic infections at the same time. So I think since research has been unable to find once viral cause, it has to be something or things that lower are immunity and makes us more suseptible.

    I wanted to point one other things out. I thought I read during one of your posts that your easophils were raised? If that is true it is usually either an indictor of allergy or parasitic infection. It may be something you want to look into. I hope you are not offended by my points, I have a great deal of respect for you and your information. I just wanted to show some other points of view.
  9. munch1958

    munch1958 Member

    The chickens are hypercoagulation, infections, and hormone deficiencies. Treat the chickens and recover has been my experience.

    Candida is an infection for some people but treating it doesn't result in total recovery. At least for me it didn't and I'm allergic to candida.

    If it is there based on labs or antibodies (IGM, IGG, and IGA) then it should be treated. Far too many assume they have candida issues but labs don't support the diagnosis.

    I have not had my ABs checked since starting heparin but last time there were looked at they were still high; IgM, IgG and IgA.

    I've been on long term Abx for 19 months. To take Abx for this long without yeast meds is asking for trouble especially with my AB pattern. So I take 200 mg of Diflucan per day and 4 Nystatin tablets per day.

    Chronic infections result in hypercoagulation. If your sed rate is below 5 chances are you have it. Treating it will rid the body of pathogens hiding in the fibrin.

    I've been on the same Abx both BEFORE and AFTER heparin. I get more results WITH heparin. I've been on heparin since Oct 15th. I'm coughing out some crud reminiscent of those annual bronchitis attacks of 20 years ago which were probably a CPN infection.

    The best way to describe heparin therapy for me has been a giant body wide period. All the tension, all the bloating, all the aches and pains, all the fatigue, all the yuck is being disolved and disposed of. Just don't know of any other way to describe it.

    The symptoms of hormone deficiencies are the same as those of infections. It's impossible to tell which symptom is the result of an infection when all your homones are out of range.

    All of my hormones are IN range for the first time in years. Could this be why I feel more normal? A quiz for hormone deficiencies can be found here:

    As my profile indicates, there is no ONE simple answer to this illness. I got better using Dr Kent Holtorf's cycle of dysfunction drawing. As labs were done and problems were identified to those issues a chunk of illness was removed.

    See drawing:

    Kind of funny how Dr Holtorf's treatment model is almost identical to this doctor's right down to the supplements?!

    I think it's time to stop arguing about labels and diagnoses. Is it Lyme, mycoplasma, CPN, EBV, HHV6, CMV, candida, mold, etc. It's probably ALL OF THE ABOVE that is responsible for a piece of this illness.

    Start focusing on what works! Treating the chickens or hypercoagulation, infections and hormones is what worked for me. I'm sure I'm not alone. <br>[<i>This Message was Edited on 12/26/2007</i>]
  10. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    We don't know the exact cause nor the cure for CFIDS/ME doesn't mean we can't improve our health by treating the various conditions which often accompany it, like yeast.

    In my own path to healing, I've had to treat individually all kinds of infections and conditions. No one thing has been the magic bullet but each thing works synergystically with everything else to bring about healing and improvement.

    Had I not taken this comprehensive approach, I might still be bedridden most of the time and on Morphine for the pain. My path may not be the right path for everyone else, or anyone else; we each have to find our own treatments which work for us.

    Love, Mikie
  11. munch1958

    munch1958 Member

    Your posts about heparin in 2006 or there abouts made so much sense to me. When I read your explanation about what was going on I made a note to find a doc that works with it. Seemed like a universal problem for all of us with this DD.

    My goal was to try heparin and see if it worked for me. After 4-5 doctors, I finally found one that is a true expert. He also does a lot with HGH. I'm so happy both treatments worked for me and that I had such a great response to it.

    Never would have known about it if it wasn't for your informative posts. Thanks!
  12. NavyJAGSouth

    NavyJAGSouth New Member

    I have found that the "chickens" in Gulf War Illness, part of which is CFIDS or CFS, is infections and heavy metals simultaneously. Both factors instigate the growth of the other stuff that makes us so miserable - like candida or yeast infections.

    Multi-level infections are primary in Gulf War vets, secondary in their spouses and children, and tertiary in everybody who spends time around them or at their homes. Infections are caused by inhaling and ingesting biological weapons and by "tainted" or "experimental" military-grade vaccines (not approved by the FDA for public use).

    Heavy metals are depleted uranium used by the Russians in all munitions and ammo since the early '70s, and by the U.S./U.K. since 1985. Heavy metal is also mercury in almost all vaccines and dental work; and aluminum used as an adjuvant or "super-charger" in military-grade vaccines, and used as a "filler" for depleted uranium armor plates attached to M1A1 tanks for extra protection.

    Infections passed to civilians is a no-brainer: Everything was airborne after we bombed or burned labs and weapons depots in the Persian Gulf, and so we inhaled and ingested "weaponized" infections. We sneezed, coughed and spit the stuff upon returning home from our call to duty, no matter whether we served stateside or in the Theatre of Operations.

    Heavy metal was also inhaled and ingested. But we brought the nasty decontaminated equipment home for repairs and cleaning, so that we could pass it on to any civilian who came close to a military installation, railroad, major port, airport, etc.

    The thing we don't recognize about yeast or candida is the "double-whammy". We sold candida to the Iraqis as a biological weapon (Published on the web, and confirmed by the CDC). Then we sent pilots to blow up the underground labs where it was growing, and we aerosolized it. Biological weapons do not respond to standardized medicine.

    Anyone with candida infection almost always attempts to treat with standardized medicine and starvation diet. It doesn't work. Not with Gulf War Illness, regardless of whether you are primary, secondary or tertiary victim.

    Simultaneous treatment of both "chickens" and "eggs" while simultaneously treating the entire household, including pets, is the ONLY way. Dr. Holtorf and Fibro and Fatigue Centers call it "multi-facted" treatment. It is working for me, and I will never fully recover. I am less than 50 percent what I was in the Army Reserve Medical, 18 years ago.

    And I can't blame that on age, or any other single factor of this devastating illness. I thank God I found a team of doctors who "get it".
  13. annwinter

    annwinter New Member

    I've read the posts here and I guess I see it this way:
    We don't know the cause of CFS, but it's a good idea to do all we can to treat symptoms, get rid of pathogens, and be healthy. It's a multi-faceted approach.

    I eat sugar and I get vaginal yeast symptoms immediately. This one is tough for me because I'm a bit of an over-eater. I need to lose 25 pounds. I use food for emotional reasons. So I can be "good" for a while, even a long while. But not this week (lol)! It's discouraging.

    I tried the candida group that is quite strict. I felt better, but couldn't stick to it. Has anyone tried that yahoo candida group with bee? I'm curious to hear from anyone. I just do the very best I can--no dairy, no soy, no gluten, no sugar, very little chocolate, keep carbs as low as possible.

    There's also a yahoo group on environmental illness that is wonderful. They discuss heavy metals, MCS, toxins, parasites, mold. And remedies for these things in the environment that affect our health.

    And, yes, there's the hormone issue. I have low cortisol and treat for that. We each have to find the components of this illness and do our best with diet, symptom management, supplements, meds. All these things do increase our functioning level. Though none of them is a cure. We don't know the cause.

    I think it's Klimas who talks about CFS affecting several systems: immune system, endocrine system, and neurology.

    It's unfortunate that it's so complicated to improve our functioning. It's peeling layers from an onion--I used chlorella to detox from chromium (heavy metal) and gained some energy. I took cortisol and I crash less and my legs aren't as weak. I take a med for anxiety. I can control horrid sinusitis if I abstain from sugar. All these things help. "Normal" people either don't get these problems or can live with them with less consequence.

  14. wrthster

    wrthster New Member

    Question: Are you saying that treating with heparin really helped with the infections by giving it at the same time? I think that is what you meant? Are there any natural products that will thin the blood if you can't a doc to give you the heparin? I am really curious about this. Thanks.
  15. wrthster

    wrthster New Member

    You seem to know a tremendous amount. I think you should write more, you have been on the front lines and probably know a lot all of us don't know.

    Also, there was a Doctor that found by using Cilantro helped many who failed ABX. When he did an analysis he found that the Cilantro removed the metals and allowed the ABX to work.
  16. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Natto (made from soybeans) thins the blood also.

    The reason that antibiotics and antivirals work better when blood is thinner is because bacteria/mycoplasma/viruses have a chance to "hide" in the fibrin of the blood when it is thicker.

    My recent reading (Shoemaker) suggests that lyme doesn't much live in the blood though. It more lives in tissues of the body, which (he says) is the main reason it's so hard to find on blood tests.

    I thus wonder whether the increased herx that people like munch1958 have experienced when adding blood thinners to antibiotics may be due to the killing of some other pathogen, like chlamydia pneumoniae or mycoplasma.

    I don't know if that's true, but it seems to me a thought.
  17. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Well sure, and Virastop also dissolves fibrin in the blood, so it would be a similar natural thing like bromelain or nattokinase. They're all enzymes.

    I think hormone imbalances and hypercoagulation are eggs, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't treat them. Same with yeast overgrowth. They could all potentially make CFS patients feel better.

    Dr. Teitelbaum described the process of treating all the chickens and eggs you can identify, at the same time, in his book "Fatigued to Fantastic". He proposed that lifting the body's burden by treating everything at once could lead to substantial improvement. It made sense to me.

    However, if a person doesn't have a particular symptom, then there's no reason to treat for it.

  18. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    I'm glad the treatments have helped you. I'm also glad you found a good doc. That's half the battle.

    Love, Mikie
  19. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    Have you read any of Dr. Garth Nicolson's work on mycoplasma infections and GWI? I'm wondering because he is convinced that the vaccines given to troops deployed to the first Gulf War were contaminated, either accidently or on purpose by the DOD. I know this sound ludicrous but there is a lot of material to back up his claims. The DOD did experiments on prisoners with mycoplasmas in Texas. Not only did the inmates get sick, but the guards and researchers also became ill.

    I ask becaue I am convinced that what I have is GWI. I have been diagnosed with CFIDS/ME and that may be the same thing as GWI, but my history suggests GWI. I got sick Dec. 24, 1990 just before the troops were deployed in Jan. I lived next to a military facility where the troops were being vaccinated. I likely got the mycoplasma infection from a soldier in the holiday shopping crowds. It was diagnosed from a blood antibody test because it was active at the time I saw the doc. I thought I had the flu. I was only given two cycles of ABX and the infection went stealth and chronic in my system. I was never the same and was left crippled for months. It triggered my CFIDS/ME (GWI?) full blown.

    I believe there are many triggering events which can cause both GWI and CFIDS/ME and if there are enough assaults on the immune system, one can develop the illnesses, especially if there is some genetic connection.

    There are a lot of questions for which we get no answers, just more questions, regarding our illnesses.

    Love, Mikie
  20. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I think a super dose of mycotoxin (e.g. from stachybotrys) would be an even more effective bioweapon than mycoplasma. It's classified by the CDC as such (as I wrote in a recent post).

    How do we know that this wasn't at least part of the cause of Gulf War Syndrome? There's no way to measure levels of mycotoxins in the blood, even though (according to Shoemaker) for some people they stay in the body forever.

    Just wondering....