Cheney Blog: Is XMRV chronic Lyme?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Elisa, Nov 11, 2009.

  1. Elisa

    Elisa Member

    Hi all,

    I just read the most recent blog from Dr Cheney on XMRV. His discussion is quite complex on how he determines this - but he concludes that XMRV influences or actually is chronic Lyme disease.


    I know there are many subscribers to his site - so I wanted to get your opinion on this...

    God Bless,

  2. gapsych

    gapsych New Member

    Is this the site where you have to pay or his other site?

    I thought Lyme is a bacteria and XMVR is a retrovirus.

    I think it would be interesting to see his take on this.


  3. ulala

    ulala New Member

    Cheney Research Newsletter No. 6

    In this issue of the Cheney Research Newsletter are posts which interpret the various XMRV tests now commercially available and a post on the inherent problems of easily oxidized oils such as Vitamin E in commercially available nutriceutical preparations. Finally, I explore the relationship of endogenous human retroviruses (ERV's) buried in the human genome and the highly homologous XMRV as it relates to human immunosuppression. The consequences of Th1 suppression and the consequent Th2 up-regualtion by both ERV's and XMRV would appear likely to explain the conundrum of the rise in chronic lyme without apparent overlap with HIV, even in the same endemic areas, and the possibility that XMRV infection is the basis of chronic Lyme.

    In this issue:

    Interpretation of XMRV Testing
    Vitamin E preparations – an issue of manufacturing and processing
    The immunosuppression of ERV’s and XMRV – Is XMRV actually chronic Lyme disease?

    Interpretation of XMRV Testing
    Current testing, primarily by VIP Dx in Reno, gives three results. 1) Serum PCR for viral DNA 2) Whole blood PCR for viral DNA and 3) Culture of human blood white cells which amplifies the infection to see it better and the most sensitive of the three tests, the most labor intensive and the most costly. Coming soon will be antibody testing including 4) IgG against a common viral protein and 5) Western blot (WB) which looks at the entire pattern of viral protein antibody expression which are present and considered the gold standard for confirming any direct detection of virus by PCR testing which is subject to false positives. When WB is available, there will likely be a contraction of standard testing to just serum and whole blood PCR and WB if positive to confirm and perhaps WB if negative to confirm any past infection which, of course in a retrovirus, is permanent infection of your DNA. There are other issues involving infectiousness and viral latency that are peculiar to retroviruses. Below is a fuller explanation. Continue reading

    Vitamin E preparations – an issue of manufacturing and processing
    I have tested a patient’s response to various vitamin E preparations on the ETM plus a typical array of nutrients that are standard practice in my clinic – Methyl-B12, Hydroxy-B12, Glucose, Fructose, Olive Oil and Fish Oil. The last six always show this kind of response in CFS but not in controls who are all positive for these six except Fructose which can be mixed in controls. CoQ-10 response can be mixed positive or negative in CFS but positive in controls. The historical variance for IVRT testing is plus or minus 1% and IVRT is measured three times and averaged. IVRT is an indirect measure of the free energy in the heart myocardial cells. Positive is good and negative is bad as it indicates a loss of free energy. These immediate responses in IVRT over a few minutes may or may not reflect later effects over time but are rather more useful to detect immediate positive or negative effects. Later effects can also be monitored but requires sequential testing over months of many patients on the same nutrient. This had only been done for a few items we currently use in therapy. Continue reading

    The immunosuppression of ERV’s and XMRV – Is XMRV actually chronic Lyme disease?
    Below is an interesting link to a thorough discussion on gammaretroviruses and the related human endogenous retroviruses ERV’s of which there are 2,000 ERV genes located on a single human chromosome. There are thousands of ERV’s spread across the entire human DNA grouped into 24 families. XMRV has 95% homology with human ERV’s. What is very interesting about ERV’s and likely true for XMRV is that they are TH1 immunosuppressive which is believed to be critical in the ability to get pregnant as the mother needs to be Th1 immunosuppressed to avoid rejection of the implanted fetus. The hormones of pregnancy and especially progesterone are in part responsible for activating env proteins of ERV’s which apparently are largely responsible for this immunosuppression. It is likely that progesterone activates XMRV env protein and may explain why we see women with more CFS at 4 to 1 over men and the apparent vulnerability of adolescent girls to CFS onset and the relative reduction of the point prevalence of CFS in the elderly and in children compared to the young to middle ages. I have also observed a reduction in severity of CFS symptoms in post-menopausal women though perhaps modulated by their use of HRT. The related hormones to progesterone are pregnenolone and cortisol. I have seen both devastate a handful of CFS cases. Continue reading

  4. victoria

    victoria New Member

    I truly believe that those of us with chronic lyme amongst their dx's do have other infections, likely many unknowns. My son and I will be eventually tested, when possible... I have friends also who know they've had Lyme in the past and date their slide to a 3-5 years afterwards. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out. Time, just need more done in less time!

  5. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Active Member

    My doctor put me on progesterone five weeks ago, and this is the best I have felt in years. The dog-dead tired that I had been experiencing for the past couple of years and which I was blaming on CFS turned out to be perimenopause and high estrogen levels.
  6. Elisa

    Elisa Member


    I tried progesterone cream (over the counter) a few months ago and felt REALLY good too. I had started that and light therapy at the same time. I had to go off for blood work and then didn't continue - but maybe I should.

    That's why the concept that progesterone plays a role in XMRV is perplexing to me...that's what a recent Cheney blog said as well as Dr. Mikovits.

    TigerLilea - maybe you should start a thread on progesterone - to see what people have experienced with progesterone...I'd love to hear more.

    God Bless,

  7. simonedb

    simonedb Member

    When I was in my 30s with perimenopause, a minute amount of progesterone seemed helpful for awhile for pms tension and then I found vitex to work better and used that for years. Went off that in mid40s when went into early menopause and thena couple years later tried bioidential hormones, and interestingly progesterone caused a different reaction at this point in my life, within hours of use experienced a fibro flare type thing, more pain all over and malaise. Can't seem to tolerate any hormones anymore, not that I ever tolerated them well.
    Perhaps where you are in your life cycle really matters with cfs, and of course we may not all have xmrv, some people just hve wicked pms or chemical exposure and other reasons for fatigue than a virus, I dont know if i have xmrv but I did have an abnormal immune system per VIP/redlabs cfs test 10 months ago after 20 years of cfs/fibro stuff.
  8. TeaBisqit

    TeaBisqit Member

    I don't think Lyme is the same, but it is very possible that the ticks carry both. From what we've all gathered over the years, ticks don't just carry Lyme, they carry a whole soup of infectious agents. XMRV could be another thing they carry. So you get hit with a huge punch of things when you get bit. It makes sense.

    I also think XMRV probably helps Lyme to cross the blood brain barrier and makes the infection worse.
  9. UsedtobePerkyTina

    UsedtobePerkyTina New Member

    or, a person can have Lyme, and then it becomes "chronic" because the person also has XMRV. The Lyme infection "turns on" the immune response, which starts the replication of XMRV hiding in the NK Cells and T Cells.

    This is the same we see with mono and flu, etc. In fact, Sophia Mirza had malaria before she got CFS.

    So any infection can be a trigger.

  10. victoria

    victoria New Member

    That's very interesting about Sophia Mirza having malaria beforehand... these types of things do not go away for many (if ever, not sure). I knew someone who went to Nepal and got it, had recurring problems forever after and has never been the same.

    I was reading that many things including typhoid can become cell wall deficient (meaning they go inside cells, like malaria, mycoplasma, lyme, etc).

    Who knows, but here's more speculation: maybe XMRV can help these thing go into L-form and to go intracellularly... Lots of avenues of research to be pursued, will likely be another 20 years unless the gov't increases funding like they did with HIV/AIDS.

  11. UsedtobePerkyTina

    UsedtobePerkyTina New Member

    From Wikipedia. I know, but I have read it elsewhere also.

    Mirza was born in the United Kingdom in 1973, one of four children to Irish/Asian parents. She visited Africa at the age of 19, traveling and working throughout the continent and was infected with malaria twice while there.[1] At the age of 26 Mirza fell ill with what appeared to be the flu and shortly afterward became convalescent, for several years only able to leave her bed for short periods of time.
  12. TeaBisqit

    TeaBisqit Member

    My father is a Viet Nam Vet and he got malaria. He was never okay. He had to take pills for years and he'd get fevers and tremors and stuff. He also went on to have thyroid problems like so many of us do and had his thyroid taken out. And then he got the heart problems. So it's kind of interesting to look at how his health was in comparison to mine. He never got our fatigue or post exertional. Even though he had many of our health problems including stomach problems. The only time the fatigue finally got him was when he got the heart problems.
  13. wendysj

    wendysj New Member

    Hi Tigerlilea,

    It's great to hear you are no longer dead-dog tired! I'm glad they figured that hormone thing out for you.

    I had a double oopherectomy in July of 2008. I was watching the fatigue and overall sickness closely to find out if my hormone levels may change the fatigue. Unfortunately, my hormones (which are still checked often by my endocrinologist) didn't do anything to help or hurt my condition.

    Anyway, I'm very happy to hear you have some more energy. Maybe you can start of post of all the things you can do now that you couldn't do when you felt so terrible. It would be SO positive!