Compliment C4, and C3

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Perrier, Dec 20, 2008.

  1. Perrier

    Perrier New Member

    My adult daughter is now in her 7th year of this harrowing illness; her compliment C4 level is very elevated, close to 5000. Does anyone know the significance of this?

    Also, her C3 is below the cut off number but the lab did not give a precise figure. Does anyone know a good lab. in the US that measures C3?
    Also, what is the significance of say an elevated C3?

    I tried to see if this subject has come up and when i punched it in the search, I did not come up with anything, but sometimes this is not accurate.

    Would be very grateful for any comments on these matters. Regards to all.
  2. daylight

    daylight New Member

    C3 and C4 blood are to check for autoimmune diseases . The can show active like in Lupus . In Lupus this test would likely be a lower number unless there is inflammation some where in the body. Like in RA the levels are likely to be high. The same as in a ESR or sed rate test. So C3 ,C4 test are to check for inflammation mostly.
    I have RA and my c3 and c4 so far had always been very high .

    Your daughters doctor may be check to see if there is more than Fm going on . A lot of us have more than FM but not always . There is a web site called it's very good at explaining test .
    Do worry your doctor is doing the right thing in testing . And inflammation can be high simple things to .

    Hope this helps some.
  3. redhummingbird

    redhummingbird New Member

    I'm sorry to hear that your daughter has this illness. It must be hard for you as well.

    Was it compliment C4a that was high?

    Elevated levels of C4a and C3a are often associated with lyme and/or mold illness.

    You might want to google Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker. He has a website that talks about neurotoxins or you can go to chronicneurotoxins dot com.

    His website discusses the meaning of these sorts of tests.

    It's a shame that it's so difficult to navigate this new website. There is a lot of information regarding this here.

    A good lab to use to measure C4a, C3a is LabCorp.

    I would suggest visiting the website I mentioned above and getting the tests recommended by Dr. Shoemaker. I would also recommend that she check for any sort of mold in her home and that she get tested for lyme (through IgeneX).
  4. Perrier

    Perrier New Member

    Deepest thanks to both Redhummingbird and Daylight for the information. I will follow your leads.

    My daughter has elevated C4a but the doctor says the C3 reading does not give him adequate information because the reading is not precise, so he doesn't know if it is on the low side or the high side.

    He is suspecting Lyme, however, she was never bitten by a tick and where we live in Canada there isn't much Lyme. He said it can be transmitted via mosquitoes.

    Basically what happened is that the doctor helped her to function up to an 7-8/10 and she went back to school, on a part time basis, doing a graduate degree, this meant one course per semester, 1 class per week, and staying home the rest of the time. But she went to a two and a half day seminar and then had a major relapse. So, the doctor, who is a wonderful man, is now looking around for why she would collapse for such a small trigger. But I am a bit concerned about the speculation that it might be Lyme, as we just don't have lots of this. Sure when she was a kid she went to camp, and did some camping in her late teens, so I have a bit of a hard time with this.

    The relapse has been horrific.

    Her physician is in the US at one of the FFC centeres because we were unable to get help here in this land of ice and snow.

    Thanks again.
  5. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Hi Perrier!

    There has been lots of discussion on this board of C3a and C4a blood tests. It's too bad the search feature on the new revised board doesn't work well. I wonder if the C3 and C4 tests your daughter had are similar to C3a and C4a. Or the same thing?

    Like Redhummingbird said, Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker uses these blood tests as part of a panel to diagnose people with biological neurotoxin poisoning. The most common biological neurotoxins are the toxins made by Lyme bacteria and the toxins made by some species of mold.

    I like Dr. Shoemaker's newest website,
    Also his books "Desperation Medicine" and "Mold Warriors".

    If she wants, your daughter can take an online test there as a first step to finding out if she has some neurotoxin poisoning going on.

    Having these kinds of poisons in the system really irritate the complement immune system. Dr. Shoemaker has figured out that some people have a genetic makeup that prevents them from eliminating some biological neurotoxins naturally. Those people's bodies need help to get the poison out.

    I'm one of those people. I can't eliminate mold toxins. My C4a was high, and my C3a very high normal. I'm taking cholestyramine and soluble fiber to draw the toxins out, and I'm starting to get better. And I've had CFS for 18 years.

    I can't tell you how great it feels to not feel half-dead all the time.

    I really feel for your daughter. It's hard to go to grad school with this illness. (I did, too.) And yet I didn't want to postpone my dream.

  6. Perrier

    Perrier New Member

    Thanks Forebearance for your kind reply filled with information. Yes, I got the thing balled up, it's C3a and C4a; now the thing is the physician got the exact result for the C4a, however, when it came to the C3a result, the lab did not provide a number but simply said: below 138; (with the range being 1-138); this means the physician does not know if her result is high normal or low. I believe he used Quest and i am wondering what better lab there is, or what does Dr. Shoemaker use?

    The other question is this: You say you have suffered for 18 long years with this nightmare; am I to understand that it was only recently that the physicians decided to test for mold?

    And are there specific tests for mold in the body? I am thrilled to hear you feel better; how long have you been on these meds?

    What I find most perturbing is that it's hard to know if someone has ME or some other issue. So years go by and the poor person just doesn't know what is what.

    A young girl of 22 just recently contacted me about her illness; frightful.

    The doctor told my daughter that if she relapsed so severely it must mean something else is going on because he stated that the protocol she is on would have held her up.

    Lyme disease is another frightening nightmare.

    You know, before all this happened in our family, I walked around ignorantly thinking that only unexplainable diseases occured in Africa or othe 3rd world countries; now I see scores and scores of suffering people trapped without help or a diagnosis.

    I am very very happy to know you are feeling better; that is wonderful!

  7. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Oh yeah, I forgot to say that Dr. Shoemaker feels that National Jewish Hospital in Denver is the only place that does reliable C3a and C4a tests.

    I had mine done through Quest lab also, but I had to make sure that they sent my blood to the right place. My doctor's lab manager had to call Quest and get the correct codes to use to send it to National Jewish in Denver.

    You can also get LabCorp to send it there, I am told.

    Yes, I've had this dumb illness for 18 years. Dr. Shoemaker's books are not that old. I only read "Mold Warriors" last January. I found a list of tests that Dr. S uses to diagnose his patients on this web page:

    I took the list in to my doctor and asked for the tests. I have a really cool doctor who works with me like a team. And after being sick for 18 years, I've learned to be very proactive about my health care.

    One of the most interesting of the tests is the genetic test, the HLA-DR by PCR. It was fascinating to get those results back. If I had only known I had a mold-susceptible genotype, I wouldn't have lived in all those basement apartments that I did over the years!

    Yes, it is really shocking that people can have mysterious undefined illnesses in the US in the present time. I can't believe it myself!

    Doctors mean well, but most of them really don't know what to do for people with CFS/ME. Yeah, it's really sad to hear about younger people who get this.

    I've been taking the soluble fiber for six months, and the cholestyramine for two months.

    I should note one more thing about my progress. I did more than take the cholestyramine and soluble fiber. I've also done something that a CFS patient invented called "extreme mold avoidance". I had to get totally away from mold before I could start to recover.

    I've been kind of easing into doing that gradually.

    One of our board members, Slayadragon, is working on writing down the procedures to follow to practice extreme mold avoidance in a kind of manual. Once she gets that done, it will be easier for everyone who wants to try it to follow the "rules". I've had to pick things up from listening to Erik, the guy who invented it, and others who are trying it.

    I hope your daughter will feel better in the future. All we have is hope and our own best judgment to deal with this.

  8. Chootik

    Chootik New Member

    This post is very interesting since I just recently tested for mold and this is what I got back:

    C4a at 7457 Range = 0-2830
    C3a at <138 Range = <205
    Penicillin Notatum = 56 Range = <22 Mold Anitibody IGG
    Cladosporium Hormodend >200 Range = <28 Mold Antibody IGG
    ASP Fumigatus 190 Range = <46 Mold Antibody IGG

    I should say that I also have Lyme and have been treating it for almost 2 years with ABX.

    So my question is the elevated C4a in your opinion is it more from Lyme or from the Mold which I obviously have in my body? Also I have really bad nervous issues, palpations with full stomach, full bladder, Anxiety, wake up in the middle of the night with palps. Bascially it's been pure hell with the Neuro stuff. It's so bad that I've stopped all ABX and just want to detox.

    Forebarence I also just checked my apartment and the mold inspector didn't find any moisture or Mold in the house. He did say the air quality and my filters were very bad and that the carpets were old. So I might be moving out of this place soon.

    The biggest question now is What Do I Do? Would Cholestromyn be enough to detox all this mold out of me?? Is there a way to kill all the MOLD?? I'm kinda confiused about this Mold stuff. If you can help out I really appreciate it.

    Also have you seen a big difference with the Cholestromyn? What symptoms have gone away for you?

    Thank a bunch.
  9. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Hi Chootik!

    So it looks like your C4a is very high, and your C3a is in the normal range. Is that correct?

    I'm not an expert on how you tell the difference between Lyme disease and mold poisoning when looking at the C3a and C4a blood tests. I know that Dr. Shoemaker can tell the difference. He also uses a genetic test, HLA-DR by PCR, to get a hint about the cause of a person's illness.

    Dr. Shoemaker doesn't do tests for mold antibodies when he is trying to figure out if someone has mold poisoning. So I'm guessing those tests must be for mold allergies. People with CFS are exactly as likely as anybody else to have mold allergies. So it's possible that you could have both mold poisoning and mold allergies, or just one or the other.

    And it's possible to have both Lyme disease and mold poisoning at the same time, which is really unfair!!

    I remember Slayadragon saying that she had both Lyme and mold poisoning at once. She said she couldn't tolerate the antibiotics very well while she was living in her toxic mold-filled house. But once she got out of there and into a safe place, she could tolerate the antibiotics and that made it easier for her to go after the Lyme bacteria.

    So if you are able to move to a place with better air quality, it seems like it wouldn't hurt. And it might help you a lot. Even reducing your allergic reactions, if you have allergies, might help.

    People have been reporting that they've had bad luck with mold inspectors. It seems that mold inspectors often don't find toxic mold when it's in hidden places. And mold inspectors are expensive. It seems like it is more accurate to do blood tests on yourself and find out if you are showing the pattern associated with being poisoned by mold toxins.

    In order to really tell if you have mold poisoning or not, Dr. S. recommends the tests on this page:

    Like I was saying to Perrier, I got away from mold toxin as much as possible and then I started taking cholestyramine. I think both steps combined allowed me to feel improvements in my health.

    The main difference that I notice since I've started actively detoxing is that I don't feel half-dead any more. I used to feel a little bit paralyzed, because every movement I made took an effort of will. i've learned that that feeling is what it feels like to be poisoned with neurotoxins.

    Now I feel like a person who is just really, really tired in a normal way. It's a huge difference to me, but healthy people might not understand what a big difference that is!

    And let's see.. what else... I've been losing weight. In spite of eating as much fat as possible, to counteract the side effects of the cholestyramine. It really dries you out.

    One thing you could try is taking some phytosterols. They are a natural, over the counter supplement that works in a similar way as cholestyramine, but are milder. I tried some while I was still living in my toxic mold apartment, and I felt a difference. So I decided this was the right path for me to follow.

    I hope that you will feel better in the future. It sounds like you are dealing with a lot of difficult issues. These illnesses are so HARD to handle.


  10. Chootik

    Chootik New Member

    Thanks for all the great info. I was going to post this to the newby Mold site you recommended and I might do that still and maybe I'll post your reply as well, so you don't have to write to me again over there.

    I am actually taking Beta Sisterol right now and I feel the difference. The main problem for me is going to be loosing weight which I'm already really thin and need more fat, but it's hard to eat fat since I have Cholestrol and it seems the liver has issues dealing with fat! So I guess I'll start slow and see where it goes.

    Thanks again and hope you're having a great Monday.

  11. Chootik

    Chootik New Member

    Sorry but I confused you with Slaydragon. She told me about a newby mold site that I am going to post my question to.

    But regardless I really appreciate your info. I might move out of my apartment anyways to a better place and will def do more detox to see what happens.

    Thanks again.
  12. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    You're so welcome, Chootik.

    I've gained a lot of weight since getting CFS, so for me losing weight is a sign of better health. But if you're already thin, maybe you won't lose weight as you detox.

    And if you have a cholesterol problem, then maybe you should concentrate on eating the essential fatty acids like fish oil etc. instead of eating natural saturated fats like butter and bacon.

    It would be great to see you on the mold newbie site!

    Hugs back,
  13. Chootik

    Chootik New Member

    I actually eat really good, I think the Cholesterol is high from the damn infections. I still tihnk I have a yeast issue and def. the Mold issue as well. So I have to really take care of that for now.

    I def. will be visiting the mold site soon. I have a few days off this week, so I'll be signing up and posting my question.

    Have a good one.


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