Conditions that suggest *Hypercoagulation*

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by PatPalmer, Sep 10, 2003.

  1. PatPalmer

    PatPalmer New Member

    Hypercoagulation (thickened blood)~ Oxygen & nutrient starvation of tissues - results from fibrin being deposited in small blood vessels. Fibrin is the body's natural bandaid: strands of fibrin form across a defect (wound, tear) in the walls of blood vessels, forming a mesh that holds platelets and blood cells. This beneficial clotting of cellular matter and fibrin strands plugs the leak, so to speak, holding things together until the body starts to repair itself.

    Thicker blood is harder to pump.
    Muscle, nerve, bone and organs function is impaired because of the inability of sufficient nutrients and oxygen to pass through the capillaries.
    The fibrin coating the vessel walls, the endothelial cells are no longer able to release heparans, the body's natural blood thinner.
    Hypercoagulation, by depriving the bowel of blood, may be a major factor in Irritable Bowel Disease.
    Viruses and bacteria may be hidden under the fibrin layer coating the vessel walls, essentially hiding them from antibiotic and antiviral treatments.

    Viruses, bacteria and/or parasites can activate certain antibodies in the immune system, which in this case trigger the continual production of thrombin, generating excessive SFM (soluble fibrin monomer) and fibrin.

    Some of the conditions that suggest Hypercoagulation in CFS/FM:-

    Cognitive dysfunction
    Digestion problems (IBS)
    Extreme Fatigue
    Crohn`s Disease
    Sjogrens Syndrome
    Lyme disease
    High blood pressure
    Adrenal Problems

    There are various drug treatment for this but I believe it is better to heal with natural products which ALWAYS have a beneficial multifunctional use for the body without the drug related side effects:-

    Water 6-8 glasses daily
    Sea/Rock Salt
    Digestive Enzymes
    Green Tea
    Raw Garlic &
    Olive Leaf Extract will help kill off any Viral/Bacterial/Fungal & Parasitical infestation.

    For more info on any of the above, please tap into search messages as these have been discussed at great length in the past.

    Love Pat.
    [This Message was Edited on 09/11/2003]
  2. PatPalmer

    PatPalmer New Member

    80-90% of CFS/FM sufferers have Hypercoagulation. It explains many of the myriad of symptoms.

    If you have many of the *50 signs of Fibromyalgia* posted by Cookiemonster, you have Fibrin.

  3. jofla

    jofla New Member

    But if yiou take Bromelain for Hypercoagulation, what does it mean to Herx? I was reading some posts about people taking this and Herxing, but don't quite understand. Thanks Pat, if yoiu have the time to answer.

  4. PatPalmer

    PatPalmer New Member

    Herx is when viral/bacterial infection dies and becomes toxic when it enters the blood stream. Kinda like being poisoned.
    Water/lemon`s essential if herxing to help flush it out.

    If anything you take makes you feel worse, either stop or reduce the dosage.

    I wasn`t aware of herx on Bromelain - I think some poor souls have a reaction to it due to intolerance. In which case Digestive Enzymes may be a better option.

    Hope this helps,

    Love Pat.
  5. keeponsmiling

    keeponsmiling New Member

    I have been taking bromelain now for nearly a month. Started out with 1000-1200 GDU's (you need to go by GDU's NOT milligrams!). Felt some mild fatigue and an occasional twinge of nausea. I'm now up to the recommended 4000 GDU's daily for fibrin clearing.

    I have to say that for the past 4 or 5 days I've felt pretty "punk". Low energy mostly. But also a "feverish" feeling, especially in the afternoon. In fact, I was actually running a low-grade fever for a couple of days. This is exactly what I feel like when I have die-off from yeast/Candida. Not pleasant, but I know something is working. LOL

    I started feeling much better last night and today. I put my husband on the same regimen, and he had the exact same symptoms. I am convinced that this stuff is cleaning out our systems of excess fibrin and whatever else may be lurking around. I also have a theory that many of our hormones (including thyroid, adrenal, etc.) get "stuck" in this excess fibrin. Will be interesting to see if the two of us can finally lose some weight. Hubby only wants to lose about 15 pounds, but he can't seem to take it off no matter how careful he eats or how much he exercises. Same with me... except for the exercise, which I can't quite do yet. So far, the thyroid has helped me a lot with energy, but not with weight loss.

    I'll let you know how it works out. :) And remember... if you take the bromelain for fibrin, it must be taken on an empty stomach, otherwise it works as a digesive enzyme and won't be as effective against fibrin.


    EZBRUZR New Member

    Pat...IT WORKS HERE!!
    I have READ very much information on the following,I have made ALL adjustments needed to prepare my Messesd uo self(lol) to get better,IT WORKS!

    Water 6-8 glasses daily
    Sea/Rock Salt
    Digestive Enzymes
    Green Tea
    Raw Garlic &
    Olive Leaf Extract will help kill off any Viral/Bacterial/Fungal & Parasitical infestation.

    I do feel around 10% better at time :~}!!
    WE Must Remember we became ill Over a time,IT will be a time before we are better.Understanding how everything works greatly helps When Nature Starts to do her thing :)

    peace & HUGS,
  7. ginben1

    ginben1 New Member

    Have your doctor check you for anti-cardiolipin antibodies. This is a very simple blood test for an autoimmunune condition that can lead to excessive blood clotting, miscarriages, etc.

    Also, checking your PT, PTT, & fibrinogen are simple tests for clotting functions.

    Also "thicker" blood could be the result of lowered plasma volume due to sodium/potassium inbalance or high cell count or abnormal size of blood cells. A simple CBC will give you the average cells/volume of blood and averge size of red blood cells.
  8. PatPalmer

    PatPalmer New Member

    Hi KnDB,

    It`s wonderful you are having improvement. With all you are currently taking I don`t think you will need the Bromelain.

    May you continue with better health,

    Love Pat.
  9. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    Thanks for this info. As you probably read, I had a big Herx on just one bromelain, but it was a 2,400 GDU capsule. I had to quit taking it because I was leaving on a trip. I am going to resume but at an initially lower dose.

    By just increasing the oxygen supply in the body, one will probably kill off whatever pathogens are using the thick blood in which to hide.

    I went back and looked at my last three SED rates and all were three or below. This is a good indication of hypercoagulation. I am going to resume the bromelain, along with my pulsing of Famvir and Doxycycline, and get my SED rate repeated down the road to see if it improves. Most docs are unaware that low SED rates signal a problem. They concentrate on high SED rates which indicate inflammation.

    Love, Mikie
  10. Therrell

    Therrell New Member

    I must have been asleep for a while, but where to you get bromolain????? What is it (prescription or herbal) and how do you know if you have hypercoagulation. I have had FM & MFP for years and haven't heard about this. Not that it's not legitimate, but can someone shed some light on this.

    Also,my neice married last June. They are both teachers and have Masters Degrees, coach basketball and baseball. I other words they are much younger and in far better shape than I am. My nephew was mowing the yard and a rock flew out and hit him on the shin. It cut a place and had to have stiches(not many). His improvement seemed slow for the first week so my neice called the doc. and he just acted like Ronnie was a "wuss". He may be a lot of things, but a wuss is not one of these. After rattling cages, Anna, my niece told the doc. that they were coming in. After checking him they found a blood clot from his ankle to his knee. He was put on blood thinners and they put a filter in his leg to avoid any clot breaking off and going somewhere else. A hemotologist was called in to ascess the situation. All blood test were normal. For some reason, thank God, he didn't feel right about the clotting factor and wanted to run some other test. The first of November, one day before my son got married, Ronnie was diagnosed with Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma. The hypercoagulation was the sign. I don't mean to post something negative, but I think most of us with FM have learned that sometimes you have to push your DOCS really hard to get results. So if you have trouble with this, don't let it go.Be informed. He also tested Positive for the Epstein Barr test. There is some connection believed with the Epstein Barr test and Non Hodgkins Lymphoma. Just be careful and as was said earlier, listen to your body. After months of Chemo. last month he went into remission. If I have any fellow "prayers", please say a little prayer for them and please let me know about this Hypercoagulation--do you just ask for the test???????????
  11. jadibeler

    jadibeler New Member

    Hypercoagulation can be determined by a blood fibrin (or fibrinogen?) level. It's a blood test, not common but my doctor knew what it was.

    Secondly, PatPalmer, you said someone (doesn't take long to forget) was probably taking enough not to need the bromelain. I thought the bromelain was necessary to break up the fibrin that the causatory mycoplams are hiding in so that they are "chased out" where the OLE can get to them. I was under the impression that as long as the mycoplasms are hiding where the antibiotics (natural or otherwise) can't get to them, they can't be gotten rid of.

    Also, I decided on Oil of Oregano for the Candida, rather than OLE - it's very strong and cheaper in the long run. If OLE does it for mycoplasms, will the O of O do the same? Would there be any need to take Doxycyline?

  12. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    I believe that antibiotics can successfully get rid of mycoplasmas without the use of blood thinners, but by taking the Heparin or bromelain, one can speed up the process. Thick blood and mucus just give the mycoplasmas a low-oxygen environment in which to hide more easily and thrive.

    By removing this hiding cover, one forces the mycoplasmas out into the bloodstream where they are more vulnerable to our own immune system's killing them. I believe this is why it's important to take colostrum, whey, and/or transfactor factor. These program the immune system to recognize and kill pathogens. The antibiotics do not kill the mycoplasmas, they just make it impossible for them to re-attach to our cells, so they either starve to death in our bloodstream or are killed by our immune systems.

    Fungi and viruses also enjoy using low-oxygen environments in which to hide. Most of us probably suffer from poor oxygen circulation and improving that alone will help us feel better.

    Love, Mikie
  13. PatPalmer

    PatPalmer New Member

    I have to disagree with you on the drug related ABX (Antibiotic) front. This is how I see it from another angle.

    From what I have recently learned, we become infected with viral/bacterial/fungal/parasitical infestation because the right environment has been created through stress, poor diet and lack of water/sea salt.

    Apparently we all (everyone on the planet) have the above microbes in our system, but a healthy one does not allow it manifest.

    For example:- Mold/growth only develops on stagnent compound. Bacteria is cultivated in a controlled environment. chicweed grows on a stagnent pond etc.

    We become infested because our system has built up a decomposing compound/oxygen deprived home for it to thrive in. For many ABX is responsible for Candia alone. While on this we are consistantly killing off the good guys. I feel they prolong illness.

    Hypercoagulation is like trying to swim through mud, so movement of oxygen, hormones & nutrients etc are severely hampered.

    ABX (Antibiotics) take forever to work because they can`t effectively get to the target, or the bacteria become mutant.

    By clearing up the blood & system with natural means like Sea Salt, Onions, Ginger, Bromlein, Digestive Enzymes, Oils (3&6) the infection is forced into movement, with eviction it can no loner survive and naturally dies.
    Natural ABX like OLE, Oil of Oregano, or Grapefruit Seed Extract will kill off anything that remains.

    Without the intervantion of drugs, using natural means & diet we should by rights regain a significent amount of health within 6 months.

    Cellfood Concentrate is a great oxygen booster, my daughter has enormous benefit recently, as she has gone from 80% to 90% better. last October before OLE she was running at 40-50%.

    Love Pat.

    [This Message was Edited on 09/12/2003]
  14. sujay

    sujay New Member

    If I were your niece I'd move heaven and earth to get an ISAC Panel form Hemex Labs, and I'd call the lab to get the name of some doctors in the area who are familiar with this test, and what to do after you get the results (because it's just the start of many clues that will need be tracked down). I strongly believe that tackling this will give him a SIGNIFICANT improvement in his chance for a good outcome. Needless to say, my prayers are with your niece, her husband and their family.

    God bless,
  15. PatPalmer

    PatPalmer New Member

    But I think your reply is directed at Therrell.

    Therrell, if anyone has many of the symptoms on Cookiemonsters *50 signs of Fibromyalgia* they have hypercoagulation.

    Love Pat.
  16. CelticLadee

    CelticLadee New Member

    Wow! Great thread to read.

    I was on OLE for several months. Jan. - June 2003.
    It seemed to help me with energy somewhat & also helped
    me avoid pain in my sinus areas both facial & brain.
    I quit taking it in June for 2 reasons: My GP wanted me to cut back on supplements & stop using extracts and my ND put me on a Nystatin and oil of oregano treatment for candida.
    By the way, my GP wanted me to consider quitting this treatment as well but I kept with it anyway. My liver count is slightily elevated to 48 so I think that was her rationale.

    I just finished my treatment Sept. 1st with my final dose of HLC high potency - "good bugs". My IBS is under control at this time. The treatment was a little harsh but the results so far are well worth it.

    Okay. I would like to try this bromelain and also the cellfood concentrate. We have always felt that something was wrong with my circulation - I'm not getting the proper oxygen to my cells. I take Betaine HCL w/pepsin before meals and proenzyme with meals. So to be clear would I take the bromelain once a day between meals on an empty stomach & when/how do you take the cellfood concentrate?

    Being the type of person that has reactions to a lot of proteins, etc. I get horrible headaches & toothaches & fatigue from various foods, etc. (my teeth have no cavities) which I read was an allergic reaction. I am timid about trying these products but will tread lightly. Any pointers for me?

    Okay. Now after reading this post I see that Sujay is suggesting the ISAC test is important. I gave my GP an article (I think Sujay posted) on hypercoagulation which my GP willing took from me. I think she was humoring me though as I got no feedback from her on it. Anyway, how would I get my GP to go along with this testing? Any suggestions? Should I submit a written request?

    Without an appointment I can't talk to her and I really can't afford to pay for an appointment to pursue this right now. (I'm paying 2k to have my amalgams removed & replaced with composite fillings) Also even if I could get her to ok the test - what good is this test if she wouldn't know how to treat me anyway? If she would just put me on antibiotics and destroy my gut again I would not be willing anyway.

    Please help me sort out all this you guys.

    Thank you in advance for your help. God bless.
  17. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    This is a chicken and egg thing and one can argue for either side. Pathogens are known to be able to manipulate their environment, so it is possible they create their own low-oxygen environment. In my estimation, this distinction is not critical. Just quoting from your article: "Viruses, bacteria and/or parasites can activate certain antibodies in the immune system, which in this case trigger the continual production of thrombin, generating excessive SFM (soluble fibrin monomer) and fibrin."

    Whether one decides to treat the pathogens and hypercoagulation with prescription meds or with supplements is a personal choice. There have been successes using ABX treatment alone. My symptoms have greatly improved since using the ABX and I do not have problems with friendly bacteria in the gut nor overgrowth of fungi.

    I don't think anyone knows enough at this point to say one approach is right and one is wrong. We are all pretty much experimenting and feeling our way with these approaches and I wish everyone success with whatever approach is used. I also hope people here will continue to keep us updated with their progress. Just because I choose the ABX route doesn't mean I try to persuade people not to try the OLE; I drink OLE tea. I think everything we do to improve our immune function, our hypercoagulation, and to kill off the pathogens which keep us sick is a step toward healing.

    I agree that stress sets us up to be invaded with pathogens which our systems might otherwise repel. Stress is our worst enemy. Reducing stress and building up our immune systems are very helpful in healing.

    Love, Mikie

  18. PatPalmer

    PatPalmer New Member

    Hi Celticladee,

    Cellfood is 8 drops added to a glass of mineral water up to 3 times a day if you want. (No tablets to swallow) they also have the same method for Multivitamins, MSM. SAMe etc.

    My daughter has Cellfood Concentrate in the morning first thing and usually forgets the rest and had real benefit. The addition of kelp tablets this week has given both of us a real boost. I feel normal again.

    Doesn`t sound like your GP can help you really, she hasn`t the right knowledge..
    Using an Alternative Health Professional would be money well spent.

    All you need to do is eradicate stress & work on cleaning up the blood through water, diet and supplements ~ (easier said than done) and most of the symptoms will in time improve greatly.

    All illness is due to the body being bogged down with toxicity, viral/bacterial/fungal load. You don`t need tests to find what type it is, the fact you are ill confirms you have them.

    Have you read the articles/posts on my Anti-Parasite/Anti Candida Diet? Not sure if you are into healthy eating...

    Good luck,

    Love Pat.
  19. CelticLadee

    CelticLadee New Member

    Hi Pat,
    Thank you for your reply and info. on cellfood.
    Do you know if the detox efforts from cellfood would be a problem for mercury poisoning? I am having my amalgams removed the next 2 months & will be done the end of Oct. Should I go ahead and start the cellfood or should I wait until after I complete the amalgam removal do you suppose? Does it matter? I know some detox efforts from some things move the mercury to new locations and cause more problems so that is why I have concerns. I need to know that the mercury if moved is flushed out of my system, not relocated.

    Oh yes, I do go to a naturopath and it has been money well spent. He is the one that got me from a semi-bed ridden state to a low activity state through adrenal gland support. My GP which does my yearly physical has problems accepting my ND treatments. Different schools of thought you know. I respect them both as far as what they are good at doing. But you are correct in that that my GP has not helped me one iota with this illness very sad to say.

    Yes, I do diet close to the anti parasite & candida diet you posted. It was a process of elimination for me ... getting rid of foods that made my headache & brain disturbances was the driving force behind my diet. I had an entirely awful time before realization of the food connection.

    Yes, I do avoid stress and live in the country ... quiet peaceful setting. My hubby is a general contractor so I do work part time for him at our home office which is also ideal.

    Now as far as the bromelain goes... would I start with 1 cap 500 mg. between meals and work up to 3 caps a day? How long do you suppose we should take it? 6 month, a year, indefinitely? Do we need to pulse it or will our system not have the problem of getting use to it? OLE I had to pulse it seems or my system would get use to it. Same with GABA and other supplements as well. Maybe my thinking is off here... maybe our system builds it up & we just don't need it. What is Your view on it?

    I know I have asked a lot of questions here today. I hope you won't mind. I really appreciate you helping me and do want to thank you very much. It is simply grand to hear of how you and your daughter have improved and I would love to be in the same boat. There is so much I want to do and when I get to feeling better I will be careful to pace myself and enjoy doing these things. God bless.

  20. IgotYou

    IgotYou New Member

    I can't help but wonder whether my incredibly easy bruising fits into this somehow. I have all the other symptoms mentioned - including 3 miscarriages. Do you take the bromelain for the rest of your life, or only until you're better?