1. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    on Mickel Therapy, we talked about it here before and an MD
    I saw back in 2006 actually met with Mickel who is in Scotland and was going to basically quit practicing medicine and concentrate on Mickel Therapy...I'm refreshing my mind on it now....

    There are older posts on this too I believe.

    I think I still have notes from some Mickel talks with the
    MD at the time I was seeing him....
  2. glitterpony

    glitterpony New Member

    I remember the name... How are you doing?

    I never met Dr. Mickel, but I'm pretty sure he reviewed all of my notes for the the therapist.

    I've often wondered why Mickel Therapy didn't become more popular. I think Dr. Mickel was trying to get a formal study of it done by the health organization in England, but I don't know if it ever happened.

    You know, every Dr. and practitioner I ever went to for Chronic Fatigue claimed to have huge success rates. That makes it awfully hard to make a judgement about what treatment to try. None of them, except the Mickel Therapist, was correct as far as I know. If they were all correct, we could shut down this web site. Dr. Holtorf seemed to me to be totally delusional. If somebody was getting well there, I never met them at the IV room -- where I had over a hundred IV's!

    But don't let me commence!


  3. LadyCarol

    LadyCarol Member

    You said "Fix the brain malfunction, and the viruses go away."

    Please explain...
    How do you fix a brain malfunction ?
    Is this only based on the assumption of a fault within the hypothalamus ?
    If so what is the specific fault and how are you targeting the fault ?

    How do viruses go away as a result if, for example a person's body actually contains a known virus or viruses ?
  4. glitterpony

    glitterpony New Member

    You know, it strikes me that a lot of guys at Harvard and Stanford are entertaining at length a pretty simple notion -- CFS usually starts with a virus, and it's a viral illness that lingers. I remember Dr. Lerner in Detroit, a Harvard guy, I think, with a lot of funding, who subscribed to this theory. I think he thought it was a form of heart failure from a lingering virus. And then there was that Stanford study where people were put on heavy doses of a punishing antiviral, and stayed in bed for I don't know how long... Do you find people on this site who have recovered by using antiviral medication? And I mean back at work, better than before? I never could handle them, myself. They are dangerous drugs, to my way of thinking. Famvir, Acyclovir, as I recall, and others...

    Dr. Mickel says the hypothalamus is running at hyper speed, causing all sorts of hormones to secrete at elevated levels, constantly. This causes the endless variety of symptoms and fatigue. He explains it on a video you can see on Youtube. It's a theory, as is the viral stuff. I think he is right, because it works for me. That is my proof to myself. The brain malfunction is fixed by a method that you learn on the telephone. It's actually a simple, elegant method. It took me a long time to learn it, but now it's second nature.

    I take it that the viral infections I supposedly had are gone. It's that old question -- Is it the virus or is it the host? If everything in the body (the host) is functioning properly, the virus is naturally eliminated, without nasty drugs. The hypothalamus is so central to the proper functioning of the body, that restoring it's proper function puts a stop to Chonic Fatigue.





  5. luigi21

    luigi21 Member

    thanks for your post glitterpony. ive read a few of the posts here, ive just looked up the mickel therapy, seems to run along the same lines or similar lines of the john sarno method, although i don't think boredom comes up in that. i'm from britain so the consensus on these conditions is controversal and can be a real problem for us. i usually look for scholary articles on things to see if any medical evidence supports the therapy and whether it has been documented properly or in light of someone making a claim where the actual statistics add up. i know meditation as an alternative therapy is proberly one of the best with results however doesn't claim to cure but does slow the brain processes down a bit.

    it is very much chicken and egg syndrome, since most of these conditions affect the whole body system, science has looked to the brain which controls everything our ultimate computer. the hypothalamus is in our reptile part of the brain the oldest part before evolution when humans as a species rose above the animals in developing frontal cortex's a larger brain, and a conscious awareness. however what john sarno suggests is our old brain is in conflict with our conscious new brain, that without that we would instinctively act on feelings of rage, fear, but mainly rage as this is the instinct that causes us to fight or flight in threatening situations.

    its not uncommon to learn that the personality of such disorder are usually reasonable and moral people, but it is this controlled nature over our feelings that make our instinctual brain angry because that would usually react, so the part of the brain that resides between the unconscious and the conscious, the sub conscious acts as a mediator, frightened that our feelings in our unconsious are trying to make themselves known to the conscious mind and may make us act in an inappropriate manner, it deprives the brain of oxygen, as just one of the defences, if you deprive the body of oxygen it causes pain,(often why light massage and heat therapy help because they improve the circulation of oxygen). it also affects the mitrochondria in the cells who are responsible for energy. in fact if a mitrochondria cell is deprived of oxygen too long it can decide to voluntarily commit suicide. however don't fret most of the time it doesn't hold out on oxygen in to long a place and thats why pain moves around the body although usually affects the side we use the most.

    cells are dying all the time and renewing so don't fret. anyway the hypothalmus works closely with other parts of the brain including the hippocampus which is the library (memory) this is why it says we have short term memory problems. the hypothalmus also controls the pituary gland, the pituary gland controls all other hormones in the body which are affected by chemical messengers. this is why it is hard to find which it is the chicken or the egg. anyway so thats the basis of the therapy John sarno sometimes talk therapy to relieve pent up feelings of trauma with have supressed because of fearing if we let them out we'd die or do something terrible. but even if we do not have past trauma, the reptilan brain is always in conflict with the newer brain the conscious. you can search this information regarding the brain on the web.

    anyway you can buy books for around £2.50 on ebay, don't know what that is in american money, i consider this not to be as expensive as the amount of money people are paying out for mickel therapy i would always be suspect of courses costing thousands of pounds, but you can find many books on the mind body connection which might explain where these therapies are coming from. john sarno don't claim to cure believeing fibro is the worst form of what he calls tms, but you can get approx 80% better functioning. to tell you the truth i got the books but didn't stick at it. however, since im still stuck i may go back to them, they suggest journalling daily, just to sought out the feelings of the day so you don't get a backlog. but i am going to meditation classes, and its nice to have a bit of piece of mind, meditation does teach about detaching from pain, although i havent managed to accomplish that outside of the class, especially at bloody night when i'm trying to sleep. hypnosis cd's can be beneficial for trouble getting to sleep.

    i think i'm looking just to improve my symptom, since there's no cure at present, that would be an up side to some days. as i understand fibro is genetic, but just because you're predisposed to something doesn't mean it will get triggered, lots of us carry inherited conditions but never suffer with them. i know my flight of fight symptoms out of wack, sometimes i get adrenaline spurge which just causes me anxiety out of no where,"clinging to my sofa like spiderman", although this has a lot less power now i know its just my brain, i find its the not knowing thats scary. these anxiety attacks can be a sign of your flight of fight system not working correctly, when something like that happens for no reason. often causes anxiety in your personaltiy and thats why im all for relaxation type therapies that slow the brain down and stop it spouting out adrenaline, and can possibly change its functioning, it has been seen on mri scans how visualisation techniques and meditation can control the working of the brain, and change it, please research it on the web, it really is interesting stuff.

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  6. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    I took the liberty of placing paragraph breaks in your post. Without them, many of us simply cannot read the posts. I would hate for anyone to miss your post. If you simply break up your posts by pressing the Enter key twice, it will put a space between paragraphs and that will enable more of us to read them. Thanks.

    Love, Mikie
  7. luigi21

    luigi21 Member

    yeah, im trying to do that milkie, it did cross my mind, correcting my spellling mistakes too, sometimes my brain works faster than my fingers, bare with me. (wink)
  8. luigi21

    luigi21 Member

    there done. just did it to explain where this stuff is coming from, i'm medically trained so i understand the workings of the body. think we are all just looking for some relief why theres no cure, that i know of anyway. i was typing this at the library and only had an hour, i am a perfectionist, but its way from perfect,(chuckle)

    have a good day
  9. glitterpony

    glitterpony New Member

    I read a couple of Sarno's books when I was ill. I think there was someone on this site that said she improved considerably by working through exercises suggested by Sarno. Yeah, he was into repressed anger as the cause of back pain, as I remember it. I did some journaling, too, which I did not find helpful. Dredging up bad feelings and old animosities didn't help me, but I don't particularly disagree with Sarno.

    Lucky for you that you seem to enjoy reading scientific literature. I personally do not. I was forced by the illness to do it, but I never did enjoy it, which is one of the many reasons I am so greatful to be well now. I can understand that solving a puzzle like Chronic Fatigue might be fascinating to researchers, and even to some patients, but I found it a bore. I just wanted to get back to my own work, and the stuff that fascinates me.

    Now, what makes you think that there is no cure at present? Because there's only anecdotal evidence from dubious persons on the internet?

    I am actually in better health than I was before my illness. I have more energy. I feel better. I accomplished this through Mickel Therapy. I think it cost me $125 per session. I haven't been following the exchange rate lately, so I'm not sure what that is in pounds.

    When I first started Mickel Therapy, I was pretty hopeless, and I didn't particularly believe in it at all. I asked for the proof, and David said, "You can prove it to yourself." That's how it works. You prove it to yourself by sort of experimenting with the method until you start to get the desired results, that is, until you start to feel better. I started feeling better within a few months, and I was a hard case. So, I have to disagree with you. There is a cure.

  10. glitterpony

    glitterpony New Member

    Yellowbird,

    If you still look in on this site now and then, I thought maybe you and I could have a little public discussion about Mickel Therapy. I've been reading through the old comments on my topic CURED, and there's a lot of disbelief. I'd like to clear this up for people, so please, if you're around, join me...

    Violet
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  11. luigi21

    luigi21 Member

    Oh my days please dont take offence at my reply that was not my intention. I was just comparing the 2 therapies in there similaraties. Trying 2elaborate 4 those who r interested in the science of it. No its not repressed anger its the battle between the old brain (hypothalamus seat of emotions) and the consciousness. The emotions r never felt nor ever will be, the subconscious sees 2 that by using the ultimate distraction pain. Im not writting 2 rebuff you. If mickel therapy cured you then i think its great that u shared it n braved any critism. I mean being cured is bloody fantatic news. I didnt say there wasnt a cure, i did admit to not stickin with it, and that there r no scientific evidence reported, however i also recognise that alot of eastern therapies work 4 people, n that they have known about the mind body connection 4 years without any science.

    And yes as you said we're all different all act differently,some of us require an explanation im one cos i like 2know on the basis of how something works only because ive tried so many things that claim 2 do what they say and dont putting you out of pocket, others r willing 2try things on blind faith ie might work lets give it a go. Bare with me i was at the library multitasking typing that stuff out, when i had 2 look for a cooker n compare energy prices n home insurance quotes whilst balancing on one ass cheek as i had a steroid injection and if anyone has had one they now what i mean (wink). And now im typing this on my phone with a screen no bigget than a credit card. Thank goodness 4 small fingers!
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  12. glitterpony

    glitterpony New Member

    Definitely no offense taken. I'm even a bit surprised that you would think that.

    Certainly, it's been a long time since I read Sarno...



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  13. LadyCarol

    LadyCarol Member

    You didn't answer my questions.

    You also said "Dr. Mickel says the hypothalamus is running at hyper speed, causing all sorts of hormones to secrete at elevated levels, constantly."

    That is a theory not a fact.
  14. luigi21

    luigi21 Member

    In fact im sure someone given an idea a go will be the one that proves the cure, thats how most things happen, i mean someone sitting in the forest one day with a thumping headache thought screw it im gonna chew bit of this bark while im waiting 4 fred to show up. And heh presto his headache gone, the tree being willow bark ie aspirin.

    And who thought right im gonna sit here and concerntrate on my breath cos im so stressed out, and in doin so learnt a whole different way to deal with stress by concentrating the mind. I think his name was fred who was always late showing up 2 his meet his friend. Then one day fred bumped in to his cousin budda...well and the rest is history...
  15. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    Seems a reasonable query to me.
    I don't doubt that some people with chronic fatigue have recovered. I know some who recovered "completely" using a number of different cognitive approaches such as Mickel therapy, as well as Gupta's Amygdala retraining.

    Please remember that CFS is not necessarily one illness and that all attempts to find cognitive underpinnings for the disease have not been positive AND the illness has been well distinguished from depression. CFS is a diagnostitians nightmare, that is why it is never diagnosed. The patient is left with a default "diagnosis of exclusion". It is this type of diagnosis which is easily placed into the psychological realm.

    I see no harm in applying the methods of Mickel or Gupta, indeed much good can come of it and I would recommend anyone, whatever their illness or emotional state to apply these techniques, Mickel and Gupta never invented them. However to say that it cures ME/CFS must be substantiated with scientific analysis.

    It is also typical, as LadyCarol points out that many "psychological" approaches conjure up physiological rationale to explain "how it works" to give some sort of medical legitimacy:
    Hypothalamus - Mickel
    Amygdala - Gupta

    but there is never any basis in fact. Raised hormone levels due to a hyperactive hypothalamus is not too hard to substantiate and given the money Mickel has made you would think he would have put some of it to good scientific use.
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  16. glitterpony

    glitterpony New Member

    Of course, it's a theory. I think more precisely, it's a hypothesis. But the fact is that I have recovered using Dr. Mickel's method -- for four years. I don't know if his hypothesis is correct or not. At some point, I concluded that the theories and such are not particularly important. What's important is to find something that works, that is, something that produces a return to full health. What I know for sure is that his method works for me, and for many others.

    I don't particularly like reciting the details of scientific and pseudo scientific theories. That's why I refer people to Dr. Mickel's video. He explains his ideas best. The evidence he may be correct is that his method works for a lot of people.

    Does that answer your question better?


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  17. glitterpony

    glitterpony New Member

    I think Dr. Mickel's theory grew out of the fact that his method works. He had a medical practice, and he noticed that people were getting well from Chronic Fatigue using his method. From that he extrapolated his theory about the hypothalamus, not the other way around. Basically, his theory is an explanation about why his method works. I honestly don't have any opinion about whether or not his theory is correct. I just know that his method works.

    I don't know if there are people working the other way around, starting with the theory that the hypothalamus is overfunctioning and trying to develop a method, or more likely, a drug.
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  18. glitterpony

    glitterpony New Member

    Ah, so you know others who have recovered completely by using Mickel Therapy(?)

    Certainly, it's often hard to tell who has Chronic Fatigue and who has something else. I was such a textbook case that my diagnosis was actually fairly easy. My mother had pretty much diagnosed me before I saw my first "expert," Dr. Holtorf. He often said I was a "classic case" and "very severe." And yes, Dr. Holtorf's diagnosis was a diagnosis of exclusion, based on exhaustive tests.

    I could not see the point in rejecting a particular method on the basis that I might be labeled a head case. Really, if you have Chronic Fatigue, a lot of people are going to regard you as a head case no matter what you do. Yeah, Dr. Mickel may have made up a physiological explanation for a psychological problem. The main problem with that idea is that it is so offensive to most people with Chronic Fatigue, it keeps them from trying Mickel Therapy. You may be one of these people, I don't know.

    It would be nice if some swell scientific double blind studies were done, and certainly Dr. Mickel has tried to get them done, but in the meantime, it's fabulous to be well...

    And what do you mean that Mickel has not put some of his money to good scientific use? Do you mean he hasn't developed a drug? Or he hasn't paid for his own study? How much money do you think he has? As much as Dr. Holtorf? Let's be objective about this.

    Certainly, Chronic Fatigue is just a gravy train for a lot of doctors and not to mention quacks. Several of them took me to the cleaners. I found Dr. Mickel to be a bargain, and much cheaper than many, many others.
  19. luigi21

    luigi21 Member

    As im from england did some searching. Dr mickel didnt get funding from what i have found. Lot of branching therapies reverse therapy started by dr eaton when mickel and him had a falling out. Mickel was originally a general practioner.

    He was on our bbc4 radio show with one of our medical people. Mickel claimed out of 850 patients 92% got better. Pinching our dr - the figures quoted arent quite the figures i hear about informally from these patients. Some therapists will use the same terminology that orthodox but is detailed in the way to mean something other. When he talks about the hypothalsmus being overactive that may not be the same as an orthodox practioner would describe. If the theory reduces stress then it will 'help' like any other stress reducing therapy thats the talking bit the same as reverse therapy. If any treatment suggests lifestyle management,adjustment,coping,way of thinking about a symptom meaning,reinterpretation their experience of the illness,it empowers the person to live more effectively and to reduce the secondary impact of the illness.
  20. luigi21

    luigi21 Member

    As im from england did some searching. Dr mickel didnt get funding from what i have found. Lot of branching therapies reverse therapy started by dr eaton when mickel and him had a falling out. Mickel was originally a general practioner.

    He was on our bbc4 radio show with one of our medical people. Mickel claimed out of 850 patients 92% got better. Pinching our dr - the figures quoted arent quite the figures i hear about informally from these patients. Some therapists will use the same terminology that orthodox but is detailed in the way to mean something other. When he talks about the hypothalsmus being overactive that may not be the same as an orthodox practioner would describe. If the theory reduces stress then it will 'help' like any other stress reducing therapy thats the talking bit the same as reverse therapy. If any treatment suggests lifestyle management,adjustment,coping,way of thinking about a symptom meaning,reinterpretation their experience of the illness,it empowers the person to live more effectively and to reduce the secondary impact of the illness.