Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by glitterpony, Mar 7, 2009.

  1. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    True efficacy of these interventions/therapies must be measured before claiming such high effectiveness. I would say that if all people who have been "diagnosed" with ME/CFS completed the Mickel program you would have around 8 to 10% recovery with remainder having gained some improvement in managing their illness.

    Why because you are not dealing with a simple illness.

    Managing the illness is NOT hopeless and giving people the impression that they are failing because they haven't done the Mickel program is despicable.
  2. glitterpony

    glitterpony New Member

    How in the world do you come up with this figure -- 8 to 10 %? The formal study hasn't been done, so we don't know. However, it is easy to come up with lots of people who will tell you that they recovered through Mickel Therapy.

    I think that if you want to succeed at something, you find people who have succeeded. Where on these boards are you finding people who have fully recovered from Chronic Fatigue and can tell you just how they did it? I found yellowbird. I did what she did. It worked.

    There may be many others on this message board who have fully recovered through other methods -- and can tell you how they did it. There's more than one way to skin a cat, no doubt.

    I don't care what the method is, as long as it works. Before I found these boards, I found a number of people who said they had recovered by going to Detroit for Dr. Lerner's treatment. I was about to do that, but my plane was cancelled, then I got too sick to go. He does high dose anti-virals. Scary, but I think it works fairly often.

    Anyway, I am here telling you how I recovered, and you are telling me I'm full of shit. Thanks. Maybe I'll go back to my rich, full life now, rather than hanging around here on Saturday evening. Why do you think I don't do that?

    Now, back to my point of view, as someone who has beaten this unbeatable illness, just in case someone out there might want to know about it.

    I didn't get into questioning yellowbird's credentials or accusing her of mental problems. I didn't delineate all the ways my illness might differ from hers. I didn't suspect her of being a con artist or of never having been sick. I didn't demand the scientific evidence. Why -- because none of that stuff helps with an illness like this, a not well understood illness. It's all trial and error.

    Maybe go back and read yellowbird's posts from the beginning. It's gotta be awfully convincing to anyone with an open mind. On a gut level, you gotta know she's telling the truth, if you're in touch with the gut level at all.

    Okay, so I'm despicable. Yeah, I think managing the illness is pretty wimpy, pretty hopeless. I do. I went through periods like that, but I always thought, I am going to beat this thing or die trying. I am going to try everything that is said to have worked for someone, and I am going to think outside of the box. I am going to get well again.

  3. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    Before MS was shown by fMRI to be a neurological deficit caused by immune
    system dysfunction some professionals believed that MS was a psychological
    illness pertinent mainly to women. Many programs like the mickel program were
    devised and promulgated to "treat" the affliction. Many stated their great
    success. Some people did recover, an estimated 8%.

    Prior to the discovery of H. Pylori many physicians believed that stomach and
    duodenal ulcers were caused by stresses and maladaptive coping methods.
    Programs were devised to give therapy, much the same as the Mickel program
    and indeed could be considered precursors of that program. Most people found
    the therapy to be helpful and recovery for some prompted analysis of the
    programs, the success rate (complete recovery) was around 10% with the
    remaider being helped but having continual symptoms, some worsening and
    needing surgery.

    Prior to the discovery of folate receptor polymorphisms it was beleived by
    some that neural tube defects in neonates was caused by excessive stress in
    the mother, in turn causing damage to the developing nervous system. Many
    women who were thought to be prone to this problem, particularly red-heads
    were given therapy to alleviate stress and recognise stress-triggers.

    Amazingly some success was achieved, I am not sure what it was overall but I
    do know of one study reporting 25%, until the data was reanalysed to be
    around 7%.

    Depression is another example of such confusion. If people with depression
    engage in psychological therapy most improve their ability to cope, around
    12% will recover from their depression and not relapse. The remainder have a
    life-long need for medication or support. The illness has not gone away. This
    is another illness where the name is unfortunate.

    The point I am making is that it is too easy to attribute a "psychological"
    cause to an undetermined illness. It follows from that that you should apply
    psychological techniques to deal with stresses and get a success with some
    people. These successes can't be denigrated by calling them placebo effects.

    In most cases the true cause of the "condition" wasn't known. In most cases
    stress on the nervous system is an exacerbating factor and the ability of the
    nervous system to cope with stresses is impaired by the illness itself.

    And, as you see by my examples I didn't exactly pull the figure of 8% to 10%
    out of the air. It is a well known and understood range in psychology. All I
    am doing is extrapolating from numerous studies to ME/CFS, which has all the
    hallmarks of a complex neuro-immune illness where some people will respond to
    psychotherapeutic assistance/techniques. What is more, most of the quality
    data produced by studies (some very sophisticated and expensive studies) show numerous immune and neurological dysfunction as well as genetic
    polymorphisms accounting for some variations and symptoms of the "illness". I
    doubt that you could have such dysfunction in a psychogenic illness and I
    doubt that you could effect change in those variables by psychological

    Most evidence points to a systemic illness in homeostasis which in turn
    affects neural blood perfusion. The neurological problems stem from this
    systemic imbalance. Of course, relaxing, living a balanced stress-free life
    will help, sometimes a lot for some people and as long as those people do
    live a balanced, stress-free life their symptoms will be lower. Like all
    systemic diseases there are large variations in severity.

    Dr. Lerners antiviral treatment only works when the herpes viruses (HHV6, CMV and PV-B6) are shown to be elevated. Not all people with ME/CFS have elevated demonstrable viral levels. also however some of those people treated with antivirals have not been fully cured but are much improved. this suggests that the viruses are effects not the full/only cause.

    I am pleased you have recovered and as I said in my previous post I also know of people who recovered using psychological techniques. I am not dismissing your approach to "treatment". However I know many many people who have not, even though they tried in good faith and much effort.
    [This Message was Edited on 02/13/2013]
  4. glitterpony

    glitterpony New Member

    Okay, I'm going to put this out there one more time, just in case some one does a search at some point. I am doing this because I feel I have a moral responsibility to do it. I don't want to spend my time lobbying the government for Mickel Therapy research money, or putting up a web site, or becoming a Mickel Therapist, but I will do this much.

    Again, I have fully recovered through Mickel Therapy. I went from being house bound and barely able to get out of bed to working full time and traveling the world and doing whatever I want, as I always did before my illness. Notice that the still sick know-it-alls on this board aren't even interested to hear the details. They don't even ask me to describe the process.

    I tried many, many, many treatments mentioned on this board, and got nowhere with them. If you feel attracted to the idea at all, don't let these people tell you Mickel Therapy isn't a good bet.

    As they say, if you've tried everything else, the thing that remains, however improbable, is the answer.

    And to IanH -- Are they here? These many, many people who tried and failed at Mickel Therapy? If they are here, name them. Maybe alert them to this thread. I read back through the seach results for Mickel Therapy, and did not find them. So, bring them, if you can. I will check back now and then. For that discussion, I will gladly come back.

    All the Best,

  5. luigi21

    luigi21 Member

    Didnt realise there were 5 pages of responses and no explanation as to what the process is, id like to know?
  6. LadyCarol

    LadyCarol Member

    glitterpony - please describe the Mickel Therapy process, I and no doubt others would be very interested to hear about it ?

    I know of a person who for many years was so ill with CFS/ME they were pretty much bed/house bound all the time such was the debilitating nature of the illness. Their family prayed many many prayers, eventually they were led to try Mickel Therapy and slowly the person started to improve, to the point where within a few weeks they were able to go out and attend a wedding and meet the public with the aid of a wheelchair for mobility. They are not yet 100% cured but they have massively improved as a result of the help of Mickel Therapy, and they continue to improve, they have their life back again.
  7. luigi21

    luigi21 Member

    Because theres been no answer,which id frustrating, to my question what is the process?i have searched the web. From the iverpool post - In mickel therapy the therapist supports suffeters of cfs and fibromyalgia. To take the steps necessary to stop their body sending their symptoms. By taking actions based on what their body is telling them, people can cure themselves of the debilitating symptoms and return to normal health.
    Over 400 clients at 92% success rate(this article was in 2007). Initially dr david mickel (ex gp) trained with dr eaton (psychotherapy phd) as a therapist delivering Reverse Therapy.

    Dr Eaton and Dr MIckel fell out and dr mickel found his own therapy (mickel). Cost of mickel therapy in england is £80 - £100 per session. Treatment consists of 8treatments at least.

    What kind of qualifications do your staff hold? Mickel therapy requires one qualification that is to have successfully completed the modular training and be in full supervision under dr mickel. Course fee total £1600 plus vat for an intendive 6 day course.
    How to train as a mickel therapist should be viewed as an opportunity to provide valuable reduction in suffering caused by these conditions. It should be viewed as an opportunity to expand the self employment world of health provider.

    I went on to read other articles the gupta and lightening process are also offshoots.

    Finally i came across this article for me it explained alot, if you have my sense of humour your have the same response to it as me

  8. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    In actual fact the corollary of this has been studied many times. ie if you increase adrenaline by injecting it, you get negative thoughts in some people, some get get panicky thoughts.

    However it is very difficult to investigate whether negative thoughts (however they may be defined) influence adrenal output of adrenaline (epinephrine). I know, because I attempted to do it in an post-graduate experiment. I gave up because the variables were too hard to control and all results would have been nonesense. To my knowledge no one else has tried. Easier to look at fMRI investigated changes in the brain. However even those studies struggle to come up with anything useful. What is a negative thought??? "I will never get well"

    We have Psychologist here who is studying this in ME/CFS and MCS and believes that these illnesses are "faulty illness attribution beliefs". I have never been impressed with his results and conclusions.
  9. luigi21

    luigi21 Member

    Im not knocking these therapies they may well work but after reafing sallycats post i had to laugh because the rules to the therapy reminded me of the 3 rules of Fightclub lol.
  10. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    In fact when I was a clinician I used many of the cognitive techniques embodied in these cognitive restructuring approaches, first developed by Albert Ellis.
    I will just knock the claims of results until I see a properly conducted analysis.

    Fightclub rules: definitely, lol
  11. tamsyn

    tamsyn Member

    You don't need a Sony to play Gupta's program. He sends just 'normal' CD's and you can play them on a CD player, your computer, your laptop or whatever. I have done the program and think it has some big benefits to offer; I would recommend trying it to anyone who is interested.
  12. tamsyn

    tamsyn Member

    Big Mama,

    I totally agree with your post. I have used Gupta's helps. I have done lots of simple CBT helps. It all helps because I am dealing with a chronic physical illness that makes me at times sad, lonely, angry and frustrated at everything I've lost in my life. BUT none of these therapies allow me to spend a day hiking in the woods or working in my garden (two of my fav things) without paying for it afterwards with a bedridden crash involving muscle wasting, tremors, nerve pain, brain fog and cardiac arthymmias. Thinking positive is lovely -- but it doesn't "cure" physical illness.
  13. yellowerbird

    yellowerbird Member

    hello Violet, I left a message for you on the board, as "yellowerbird"; I'm adding this one in case you get alerts when someone responds to your thread
  14. yellowerbird

    yellowerbird Member

    I feel the need to point out, for those who say they don't want to try any treatments that aren't proven or have no evidence.... There is actually NO EVIDENCE for CFS itself either. We are always being told by authorities that CFS is not real because there is no proof of it. And yet we answer: I don't need proof, I know how I feel, I'm sick. And when people say we are lazy or just lying, we are upset and we don't agree and we insist on our own experience.

    And yet, when someone says they have found a cure, and there are lots of patients out there who are well and leading full lives, all of a sudden it's : "self reports are meaningless! Only things that are totally scientifically proven can be real! They are just lying to get my money!"

    Think about it people. Do you or don't you think that evidence is the be-all end-all...? In one case you say it's everything and in one case you say it's nothing.

    Remember too that there is a huge difference between something that has been looked into and dis-proven, and something that has not yet been properly investigated.

    Try and connect with the part of you that knows yourself and isn't dependent on outside validation so much. That's the healthy part of you and you can use that part to go from being sick to being well.