detox question for waynesrhythm

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Slayadragon, Jul 18, 2008.

  1. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I have a question about coffee enemas for you.

    I have been using cholestyramine (alternating with brown seaweed) to try to remove mold poisons from my body.

    What I have found is that these don't give me much of a reaction unless I combine them with some fish oil (or flax oil). Then they totally knock me out and I get quite sick.

    Below is an explanation kindly provided to me by Dr. Mary Beth Short-Ray. She is an osteopath who suffered from mold poisoning herself and then wrote a very good intro book called "Surviving Toxic Black Mold Syndrome."

    Her explanation seems to be suggesting that my gall bladder is an issue. That seems reasonable to me, since it seems to work in fits and starts. I get a whole lot more gurgling type feelings/sounds when I do use the fish oil, too.

    I'm wondering if there are other things that could make this process easier.

    Like, what do you think would happen if I tried coffee enemas? Do you have any other thoughts?



    I think I may have come across the answer to one of
    your questions specifically on why csm plus fish oil
    causes such an intense reaction in you.

    In Patricia Kanes PK protocol book entitled The
    Detox Book it is described that the mold toxins ie
    neurotoxins logde in the gallbladder. CSM works at
    the opening of the gall bladder (spincter of Oddi) by
    binding to the toxins and allowing them to be excreted
    in the stool. They explained that if the gall bladder
    is sluggish and does not push out the bile like it
    should and since fats stimulate the gallbladder to
    contract iinto action ie pushing out the
    may have experienced a more intense reaction because
    this time the CSM actually did work whereas before it
    did not because you have a sluggish gall bladder.

    I am
    guessing that you still have a gallbladder based on
    this reaction. I am wondering what would happen if one
    did not have a gallbladder as I do have more than a
    few mold patients who ended up having their
    gallbladder removed because of mold symptoms that
    imitated gall bladder attacks because of mold toxins
    lodging in the gall bladder.

    In fact in Dr. Kanes book, they have recipes for CSM
    to be mixed with heavy cream to stimulate the
    gallbladder to contract and release toxins so they can
    be bound.
  2. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Lisa,

    RE: "What do you think would happen if I tried coffee enemas?"

    *** When I first started doing coffee enemas, I had read I should anticipate some gurgling as various bile ducts began to unclog. Even though I anticipated it, I was surprised how loud and long they lasted. It stayed this way for several days before it began to subside somewhat, but was still significant for several more weeks. It still happens on occasion.

    I believe I did a very thorough and much needed gall bladder cleansing during this initial phase. A long-standing intermittent pain in my gall bladder area seemed to almost completely subside. It still shows up on occasion, but nothing like before I started my regimen. I feel this occasional return of this pain signifies some kind of ongoing stress in my gall bladder. This could quite possibly be associated with mold, based on the information you just posted.

    I feel the CEs have played a critical role in keeping my liver and gall bladder in reasonably good shape. I am thankful for this given my myriad health stresses that can take such a toll on both organs. I think there's a good chance they also prevented any number of parasites to take hold during a time my health and vitality were so compromised.

    I believe the CEs have also been very important in helping keep my glutathione levels up during a time when my methylation cycle was probably blocked. Even though I am taking the MCB supplements now, it still feels the CEs raise my gluthione levels in the mornings when I feel I need it the most.

    I've been posting on my MMS (chlorine dioxide) experience recently, and have speculated that it is helping reduce some Lyme associated pathogen levels in my body. I've now come to believe this MMS could very well be reducing some mold levels as well.

    I suspect I was exposed to some mold and/or fungal exposures when I moved into a new house last November. Some of my symptoms, especially cognitive issues and brain function took a dramatic turn for the worse at that time. These brain and cognitive issues seem to have responded well to my ongoing MMS experiment. It's all speculation, but thought I'd mention it as a possible area of research you may want to consider.

    I believe you've mentioned Lyme in some of your posts on occasion. I just ran across an article in the latest Townsend newsletter about a man finding remarkable success with Lyme using a biofeedback device which uses pulsed electromagnetic fields (not Rife). I'll post the article below for your convenience. I'm intrigued by it, not only as a possible therapy for my own suspected Lyme issues, but for my suspected mold issues as well. Am just starting to explore this.

    <a href="">ONDAMED Home Page</a>

    <a href="">ONDAMED Testimonials</a>

    The testimonial section has another Lyme story in addition to a number of other conditions that were reported to have been successfully treated. Most people go to practitioners to get this ONDAMED therapy. These machines are available to the the public also, which run around $22-$23K.

    I hope some of this may help.

    Regards, Wayne

    Lyme Disease

    MI is a 30-year old male diagnosed with Lyme Disease in April 2000. He was thought to have been bitten by a tick in 1998. He never developed a rash but over time he slowly developed multiple sclerosis-like symptoms which included numbness to the extremities, fatigue, difficulty walking, neuropathy and memory loss. He also suddenly developed dyslexia (difficulty with writing) and had also headaches, athralgia, muscle atrophy and spinal pain.

    The symptoms became so debilitating that he saw several physicians and had diagnoses ranging from multiple sclerosis through Lou Gehrig's disease to clinical depression but all along he steadily grew worse. He saw a Lyme disease specialist who confirmed through laboratory analysis that he was not only positive for Lyme but also for Ehrlichia (which can be a co-infection).

    Over the course of three years he received the usual course of treatment: intravenous antibiotics which included Rocephin, Merrem, Zithromax, Plaquenil, Claforan, Amoxycillin, Doxycillin as well as supportive nutritional supplements and 150 hyperbaric oxygen treatments.

    He experienced a gradual improvement and recovered about 60% of his functions but his symptoms always quickly returned whenever he went off the drugs. He knew he could not stay on antibiotics for the rest of his life nor did he want to.

    In 2003, the physician he was seeing was trained with ONDAMED® and he started MI on one treatment a week of it. Within 2 months, his health improved to 90%. His improvement was so significant that he bought his own machine and started to treat himself 2 to 3 times a week. He also stopped the antibiotic treatments shortly after commencing the ONDAMED® sessions and for the first time he was able to have lasting results without them. He used patient-specific and pre-set modules for 1 year after which he decreased the sessions to 1 to 2 times per week.

    His MS symptoms of numbness and neuropathy are completely gone and he is able to walk and exercise normally. His memory significantly improved and his headaches and dyslexia went away. Athralgia, muscle atrophy and spinal pain all resolved as he became symptoms-free. MI now works full-time, travels extensively and lives a full and active life. Remarkably, he has gone on to become one of the head ONDAMED® trainers! In his own words ".....God knows where I'll be today if my doctor hadn't had ONDAMED®".
    <br>[<i>This Message was Edited on 07/18/2008</i>]
  3. simonedb

    simonedb Member

    hey is that like "vibratory medicine"? I was researching LDN and came across this account by a guy named Delaney who put a book online about his healing from ms using edgar cayce's methods of vibratory medicine as well as LDN.
    I don't know of there is something to it or not.......but its interesting:
  4. brainfoggy

    brainfoggy New Member

    I am starting ondamed 1 x week for the next 6 months in conjunction with abx treatment for lyme. Thank you for posting this I was a bit skeptical of this machine and whether it was really necessary.
  5. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Wayne (or whoever),

    Last night I did a coffee enema, and then again in early afternoon today.

    I got a whole bunch of gurgling from my gall bladder last night. Today there was only a litte.

    In general, I feel better. Less frozen, less toxic. Ever since I've been taking the seaweed, I've woken up every morning feeling extremely icky and thirsty. That didn't happen today.

    What I feel now is dizzy, especially when I bend over or lie on my side. Not horribly dizzy, but enough to be noticeable.

    This is an unusual symptom for me. I am certain it is connected with the CE's.

    What do you think is going on? Is there anything else I should consider doing at this time?

    The rest of the posts on this thread are very interesting, and I will return to them soon.

    Thanks for your help!

    Best, Lisa


    Oh, some practical questions:

    If I leave coffee in cup in my kitchen, it eventually will get moldy. Apparently mold can grow on coffee.

    Note that this is not poison mold and thus does not concern me for that reason. Regular mold is not going to set off my body's alert system like poison mold does. However, mold of any sort is something to be avoided in this circumstance!

    If I just rinse out the enema bag and let some water go through the tubing, would that be sufficient to keep it clean?

    Some sites sell an enema bucket (metal or plastic). This looks like it would be easier to clean, but I would be afraid it would tip over unless I were to have someone help me (which I'm not). Am I missing something?

    Even if I did buy an enema bucket, there still would be the issue of whether the tubing is properly cleaned. That seems to me much more likely to get contaminated with mold than the enema bag, and so I'm not sure why having a bucket would help.

    All the items I currently have are silicone, by the way. Just regular Walgreen's brand.

    Comments?<br>[<i>This Message was Edited on 07/19/2008</i>]
  6. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    Lisa - Standard Process makes a product called AF Betafood which is excellent for the gallbladder. It helps thin bile and get it moving. One of its primary ingredients is beets. I used to have a chronically inflamed gallbladder and it was helped enormously by the AF Betafood which my chiropractor gave.

    Choline is also very good for the gallbladder.

    So if your gallbladder is sluggish or the bile is not flowing how it should and having trouble eliminating toxins, do try the AF Betafood. I can't praise it highly enough. Here's an article about it. Also, I generally had to take about 9 tablets a day for several days and then gradually cut back. Many chiropractors sell it, and you can also order it on-line.

    AF Betafood

    If you have gall bladder problems then AF Betafood may be your one way trip to health, vitality and keeping your gall bladder. If, after consuming consuming a meal heavy in fats, you begin to burp almost immediately, this means you have gall bladder malfunction and your metabolism is more than likely deficient.

    Today, doctors are recommending people have their gall bladders removed when the people who signs of gall bladder stress or disease. Here is what really happens. People have metabolism problems. As a result the bodily functions begin to mis-function. When certain foods are consumed that require adequate gall bladder function, we can have signs that the gall bladder is not in a position to do its job accurately. Let us consider this mis-firing of the gall bladder function. Do we destroy the symptom of the metabolism or do we correct the metabolism problem that caused the gall bladder to mis-fire in the first place. Do you think removal of the gall bladder corrects the metabolism problem? Of course not! but correcting the metabolism problem provides us with sick gall bladder relief.

    Let us observe the function of bile. Bile has a number of functions. Bile breaks down the fat in food. Bile emulsifies the fat in the digestive system. Bile works to help eliminate toxins from the body. Here is an example of how bile helps: Say you are painting and breath the fumes and the chemicals associated with paint and fumes. The fumes and associated chemicals are drawn into your lungs as you breath. From the lungs, the chemicals are picked up by the blood and carried to the liver. As we all know, the liver works as a filter just like the filter used in keep oil clean in the automobile. The liver proceeds to dump the chemicals from the paint into the bile from the gall bladder. The gall bladder then dumps the bile containing the chemicals into the intestines for elimination.

    The most important thing to understand is that the bile is your aid in removal of toxins from the body. But when the bile gets thick like cream this means the fat metabolism is malfunctioning. Bile must be thin to do it's job correctly. Cataplex F and Cataplex A thin the bile and Betafood flushes the bile route.

    Standard Process puts together the three complexes to make AF Betafood. Therefore, you need one instead of three bottles of product to help keep your bile flowing properly and possibly forego the serious problems related to malfunctioning fat metabolism.

    As you may have already guessed, AF Betafood also takes a serious stress from the liver as well as the gall bladder. The gall bladder functions properly and the liver is able to continue doing its job in relation to it's relationship to the gall bladder correctly as well .

    Indredients: Carrot powder, vacuum dried beet leaf juice, beet powder, honey, oat flour, calcium lactate, defatted wheat germ, magnesium citrate, vacuum dried bovine prostate, nutritional yeast, bovine liver powder, vacuum dried bovine kidney, alfalfa meal, vitamin A esters, arabic and cellulose gum, bovine orchic glandular extract, calcium stearate, bovine liver fat extract, flaxseed oil extract, prolamine iodine, ascorbic acid, pyridoxal 5-phosphate, mixed tocopherols, and soy bean lecithin.

    Two tablets supply 170 mg Vacuum Dried Beet Leaf Juice and Beet Powder and 130 mg Carrot Powder.
  7. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Lisa,

    I'm happy to hear you got a feeling of being less toxic after doing the CE. I'm not sure what to make of the dizziness you mention but I'll mention a few things that come to mind.

    1) You may have really stirred a lot of stuff up with your initial two CEs, and it may have been a bit much a little too fast. I normally take 1-2 charcoal capsules before doing a CE to absorb some of the toxicity that can be released. Perhaps that might help with the dizziness.

    2) It could have something to do with electrolyte levels. I've not read extensively on it, but do know that it is important to be sure to keep electrolyte levels up when doing CEs. I myself take a Standard Process product called MIN-TRAN, plus some other nutrient/mineral rich green food supplements.

    3) It could possibly be from an element of stimulation. My understanding is that the colon, similar to the eyes, feet and hands, all have nerve endings corresponding to other parts of the body. An enema has a natural stimulating effect, and if your body isn't used to it, it could have been a bit too much in the beginning.

    4) It may have jumped your glutathione levels up (which I feel it does for me), and given your initial reactions to the MCB supplements, perhaps you're having some kind of reaction from that. I'm just kind of thinking out loud here. My inclincation is almost always to take things slowly until a better sense for what may be going on kind kind of surfaces on its own volition.

    Regarding the coffee solution: I normally make a large batch at one time; 1 pint of ground coffee to make 1 quart of concentrated coffee solution and keep it in the refrigerator. 2 oz. of this coffee is roughly equivalent to 1 cup of coffee. CE instructions normally recommend anywhere from one to four cups of coffee. I normally use one to one and a half cups, to which I add 1-3 drops of 35% food grade hydrogen peroxide. I feel the H2O2 improves the benefits of the CE, plus adds an element of santitation for the enema bag and hose.

    I normally flush the enema equipment out soon after using it and let it hang out to dry. I've not noticed any kind of mold or other sanitation problems. I have wondered whether I should perhaps soak it in some vinegar water on a periodic basis and will likely be starting to do that very soon.

    I think what you're doing is going to eventually give you some very valuable experience. My guess is that most people will not need to do daily CEs as I do, but knowing how to do them and becoming aware of their effects is a very good thing. I remember well when I had a very serious pesticide exposure, and was able to pull out of it within 2-3 days. An exposure like that before knowing how to do CEs would have knocked me down for many weeks, perhaps months.

    Good luck as you continue with your experiment. I'll be curious to see how well it works for you.

    Hi Mary -- Good information on the SP products and gallbladder function. I'll keep the AFBetafood in mind next time I do a Standard Process order.

    Regards, Wayne
    <br>[<i>This Message was Edited on 07/19/2008</i>]
  8. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

  9. tooks

    tooks Member

    Hi Lisa,

    I have used both coffee enemas and a gall bladder/liver flush that you may have heard of. It is a whole protocol that I'm sure is available on the internet, but basically it involves drinking about a cup of a mixture of lemon or grapefruit juice and olive oil, with a couple of small doses of epsom salts. For me it clears the gall bladder more effectively (you can see lots of little stones that come out) than the coffee enemas, but it is a more intense protocol and there is usually a few days of preparation.

    I have also used the ONDAMED® machine that was mentioned and while I didn't get startling results, it did help. The doctor who administered it specializes in Lyme, though I don't believe I have it.

  10. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Susan,

    I heard of that liver flush a long time ago but didn't look into it, in part because I have a mild allergy to citrus. My allergies seem to be getting better some of the time since addressing the mold though, and so maybe this would work for me.

    Is this the one where you use the whole lemon in the blender? (I imagine it must be strained then.)

    I will look up the information.

    Right now just a little fish oil and the coffee enemas are all that I can handle. Hopefully if I get a little further along in my progress, I'll be able to handle something more intense.


    Best, Lisa
  11. redhummingbird

    redhummingbird New Member

    I'm glad to have found this thread. I'm wanting to do a coffee enema. I think it will help eliminate some built up toxins.

    I tried to get my doctor to prescribe cholestryamine since I have the dreaded genotype but surprisingly he didn't. He wants to try babesia treatment of mepron and a high dose of clarithromyocin instead.

    I've been having some achiness in my liver area and am assuming it's either liver issues or gall bladder.

    I also restarted the methylation protocol and will be adding the last supplement tomorrow.

    The gallbladder cleanse instructions can be found in the book Digestive Wellness. I was just reading about it today.

    It takes about a week.

    I'm trying to find the best/quickest way to get my intestines/gall bladder/liver ready for the next round of antibiotics. I'm also having bloating.

    All I need are step by step instructions. Is there a good site on the internet for it? I googled it and found different instructions. I'd rather hear from the pro's here!
  12. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    You may want to take a look at malic acid. I still take it almost every day with the gallbladder in mind. I believe it can soften the stones, can't remember exactly, but it's abundant in apples which is why some liver flushes use apple juice.

    It's good for several cfs/fibro things, but the only reason I'm using it still is because I'm fairly certain I have gallstones. I have attacks every once in awhile, usually when I'm not taking it, and I hope to be able to do the liver flush one day and get rid of them once and for all.

    First things first, I'm still whooping the gut dysbiosis. It's taking a long time but I rode my bike today. My legs gave out after about 15 minutes, as usual, but I didn't get tired one bit - just got shaky legs! No fatigue and no PEM, it's about time - I've waited a looong time for this to happen.
  13. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Well, a couple of comments:

    1) Babesia is nasty stuff. I would never discourage anyone (especially someone who's really sick) from attacking that one first.

    2) Dr. Shoemaker (who I do trust) suggests that if lyme disease toxins are a problem, at least a short course of antibiotics to kill off a chunk of the bugs is an appropriate start. He recommends cholestyramine as a follow-up. This, he believes, will cause the immune system to get stronger and thus keep the lyme bugs more under control.

    3) Cholestyramine tends to make lyme sufferers really sick. A lot of lyme patients say they just "cannot" take cholestyramine, since the herxes they get on it are far more powerful than those of antibiotics. Dr. Shoemaker agrees that this happens for lyme patients (though it seems not mold patients). He highly recommends a drug called Actos, which he says resolves this problem nicely. I've yet to see any LLMD's give Actos though. I don't know enough to say why.

    4) With your combination of one "dreaded genotype" and one mold-susceptible genotype (along with your being so very sick), I would suspect mold toxicity as well as lyme toxicity. And if indeed mold is a problem for you, no amount of lyme treatment ever may do much good for you. I am gradually putting info about mold poisoning on the board, and eventually am going to put together some well-organized threads (and then a longer "manual") on the topic.

    For the time being, you may want to look at the thread "How do I do thorough mold/chemical testing in my home" started by boltchik and " “Until proven otherwise, CFS is Lyme Disease" -Dr. Forester" started by kathy662 for some of my thoughts. (The latter one is really long, but my posts on mold are on the first several pages.)

    5. Dr. Shoemaker highly recommends cholestyramine for mold poisoning and I took the for a while. I think that's what clogged up my gall bladder, though it's possible that the methylation support contributed also. Apparently a lack of EFA's caused the exit from my gall bladder to get stuck, since now that I'm taking a small amount of fish oil I'm getting a whole lot of release. I would advise anyone embarking on a detox program (methylation, mold/lyme, whatever) to supplement with flax or fish oil. This is something that's a better preventative than something to use after there's a problem.

    6. Your liver pain again makes me suspicious of mycotoxins. Mycotoxins are absolutely terrible for the liver, leading to a high association with liver cancer and other horrible stuff. This is another good reason to look into the mold. WIth regard to the liver, "ordinary" measures to address mycotoxins (the remediation and removal of obvious porous objects, maybe some mild detox) may be enough to address the problem successfully. I don't know that CFS sufferers can recover from mycotoxins problems without going the "extreme avoidance" route, but I think some underlying benefits can be achieved just through the sorts of procedures recommended everyone. It seems to me worth looking into anyway.

    7. Do you have time to briefly outline the gall bladder cleanse from "Digestive Wellness"?

    8. How is the methylation going? Have you had any changes (good or bad) from it yet?

    9. For intestines, I've found success with a) my doctor's extremely high-dose probiotics (available only from him), b) ordinary parasite cleanse with stuff like wormwood, clove, walnut hull, grapefruit seed extract (parasites seem to do well in a dirty colon), c) aloe leaf and latex for constipation, d) the prescription drug Lactulose for constipation. In any case, keep the waste moving at all costs.

    Let me know if you have any other thoughts. This topic is definitely on my mind!

    Best, Lisa
  14. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Karen,

    That's interesting about the malic acid. Thanks.

    So if my gall bladder is filled with gunk, does that make it more likely that I will get gallstones? THat's a bad though.

    Dr. Mary Beth Short-Ray said that a lot of mycotoxins patients lose their gallbladders. That's a very good reason to take care of mine.

    I'm so glad you're continuing to make progress!

    Best, Lisa
  15. redhummingbird

    redhummingbird New Member

    Thanks for the informative post. Another one to copy and print out.

    I'm looking more into the mold issue. In fact I have a mold specimen ready to send off to Dr. Shoemaker. I'm finding Mold Warriors to be a great book.

    So far the methylation is going okay. I think starting a new antibiotic while also starting methylation at too fast a pace was too much for my body on the first go around. I took a 2 week break from the methylation protocol and have been off all antibiotics for one week now.

    I think the antibiotics killed off some lyme though. I'm noticing about 20% improvement. Not a lot but I'll take it.

    I'll start the Mepron and clarithyromyocin after I've been on the full methylation protocol for a few days. I'll add the last supplement tonight (B12/folate).

    I think the two supplements that hit me hard are the Neurological Health Formula and the B12/Folate.

    The only symptoms I've noticed are an increase in spaciness, a slight increase in depression, and wanting to sleep more. I do feel like the protocol is working on my body at a core level so I'm going to continue.

    Here is gallbladder flush as outlined in Digestive Wellness by Elizabeth Lipski, PhD, CCN (she recommends it be done under the supervision of a doctor):

    From Monday-Saturday, drink as much natural apple juice as possible. Continue to eat normally and take your usual medications or supplements.

    On Saturday, eat a normal lunch at noon. Three hours later (3:00 p.m.) dissolve 1 tablespoon of Epson salts in 1/4 cup of warm water and drink it. This is a laxative and helps peristalsis move the stones through your digestive system. (because of the taste she recommends an orange or grapefruit juice chaser).

    Two hours later (5:00) repeat the Epsom salts and juice chaser.

    For dinner, eat citrus fruits or drink citrus juices.

    At bedtime, drink 1 1/2 cups of warm extra virgin olive oil blended with 1 1/2 cups of lemon juice. Go to bed immediately and lie on your right side with your knees pulled up close to your chest for 30 minutes.

    On Sunday morning, take 1 tablespoon Epsom salts in 1/4 cup of warm water an hour before breakfast.

    If you have gallstones, you will find dark green to light green stones in your bowel movement on Sunday morning. They are irregular in shape and size, varying in size. If you have chronic gallbladder problems, you may want to repeat this agin in 2 weeks. The flush can be repeated every 3-6 months if you continue to form stones (pp 225-226).

    Lipski also recommends trying black radish to stimulate bile production and aid in the digestion of fats.

    She also recommends Milk Thistle or Silymarin.


    I'll look forward to your posts on Mold.

    Have you read Shoemakers book-Desperation Medicine? I'm like that one too.

    I'm going to try your suggestions for my intestines. I'd like to get them cleaned up prior to starting antibiotics again.

    I started going to my acupuncurist again and am taking chinese herbs. I think having a different attitude from "this will cure me" to "this will support my healing" helped me to decide to try it again. I think my body needs all the support it can get right now.

    If I have other thoughts I'll post them.

    There are many books to be written. It seems like the methylation protocol, mycotoxins and biotoxins are key elements in healing.

    Were you able to get your blood drawn for the genotype testing? I'm so curious to see what type you are.

  16. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Does Dr. Shoemaker do mold samples? There are instructions in “Mold Warriors,” but a couple of months ago Forbearance said that he wasn’t able to do it for her.

    She and Lisette both sent samples to a lab called mould-works instead. They were really happy with the results too.

    Interesting that you got such a fast improvement from the antibiotics. I am out of town for the month (Colorado) and brought a bit of doxy with me just in case I got in the mood to try something new.

    I had such a terrible time with them when I was living in my house that I’m reluctant, but perhaps it would be different now. I would hate to ruin my vacation, though. Maybe I’ll wait a more. I still am getting a ton of toxic release from the brown seaweed (Limu), and I keep thinking that maybe my body will be able to handle the bugs better once I get some more of those out.

    I’m way up in the mountains at present (9500 feet), and it occurred to me that a lot of the symptoms of altitude sickness are the same as with mold poisoning and/or hyper mold reactivity. So I’ve spent a good bit of time worrying about how much mold there might be in our condo. I don’t think much, but with my sensitivity even a little bit is enough.

    I got the housekeeping department to bring a small ozone machine, which I’m currently running in one of the bathrooms. Perhaps if I do one room at a time, it will at least give me a little peace of mine. The $10,000 ozone machine that the remediators used in my house was extremely effective, but I don’t know about these little ones. However, Forbearance, who’s currently in mold escape mold (I should tell you more by e-mail) had a Holiday Inn Express room ozoned and felt like it helped. It couldn’t hurt anyway.

    I’m supposed to go camping in the desert later this month. This is supposed to be the best place to get away from mold toxins, and so it will be interesting to see how I feel there.

    So the FolaPro didn’t hit you as hard as the Intrinsic B12/Folate? That’s interesting. I’ve found the FolaPro to be really potent for me. I think it depends on which defect you have.

    That Yasko multivitamin is supposed to be really heavy duty. A lot of people use “sprinkles” for a long time. I’ve never taken it for a couple different reasons, but I’d definitely suggest starting small.

    Interesting gall bladder flush. Did you ever try it?

    No, I haven’t gotten the HLA DR test done! My doctor was interested enough in it to spend a whole hour with me and LabCorp rep and says he’d like to start administering it to all his patients, but has yet to follow through. So it will now be September before it’s run. I am planning to go to see Dr. Mary Beth Short-Ray, an osteopath who has a practice specializing in mold, at some point in September, and she said that she would order them for me. She’s in Ann Arbor (a ways from Chicago), but her suggestions so far have been really useful. I’d like to get her to understand more about how mold poison seems to be related to CFS too.

    She is the person who suggested the gall bladder problem to me, and so perhaps she will have other ideas. I’ll ask her about this flush, for example.

    “Desperation Medicine” is very good. Dr. S is not a terribly organized writer, and so there’s a lot of stuff in there that applies to mold that’s not in “Mold Warriors.” And for people who think lyme is a key issue for them, it seems to me must reading.

    I saw a TCM practitioner (supposedly a good one) last year when my system was in agony from the Famvir. It seemed to help a little.

    It’s supposed to be exceptional for liver problems though, and indeed my husband (who has/had Hepatitis B and whose liver got zonked by all those mycotoxins) found it to be extremely helpful.

    I went to his practitioner’s office on Friday hoping to get some herbs, but it was in one of those commercial office buildings. I didn’t like the feel of it (seemed like some mold was present), and making myself sick in order to try to get better seemed pretty stupid. However, this guy has an office in Chinatown too, which is where I used to go to see him. So if this gall bladder thing is not resolved in September, perhaps I will go to see him then.

    Expecting TCM to cure you is way too unrealistic! (Even though a lot of them will say that they can.)

    Dr. Shoemaker is going to include some of this avoidance stuff in his next book, called “Surviving Mold.” However, it’s hardly going to be the “how-to” manual that CFS sufferers are going to need if they want to try to follow our path (full credit to Erik on this).

    I’m going to start by putting together that, since it actually should be a lot easier than providing a lot of basic information on this and other boards on a repeated basis. Just answering questions after that would be a lot less effort. In retrospect I’m amazed at how much effort Rich Van K has spent helping us directly.....though then again he doesn’t have CFS and is intellectually bored since retirement.

    Please stay in touch!

    Best, Lisa
  17. tooks

    tooks Member

    The instructions that redhummingbird posted are pretty much the same as the ones I followed, except I used apple cider vinegar beforehand instead of apple juice--supposed to soften the stones. Another tip: I've done it twice and the first time I had really bad cramps and nausea. The second time I had a few colonic before hand and used a heating pad during the night on the lower abdomen and both helped a lot. And yes, you wouldn't believe the number of little green stones that come out. I guess most of us have them and don't know it. But you feel lots better afterward.

    I agree that it is best to have a health practioner guiding you so that you know when you are ready for it and also to help your unique body prepare.

  18. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi All,

    Hi Simondb - Thanks for posting the website on vibrational healling for MS. Sounds quite interesting, and I'm going to try to follow up on it at some point.

    Hi Lisa, RE: "My allergies seem to be getting better some of the time since addressing the mold though"

    *** I read a rather remarkable gallbladder flush testimonial recently. A woman had done three of them with relatively little results (that she could tell). On the fourth one, she passed several very large stones. She said it was easier passing these than some of the smaller ones in her first three flushes. Anyway, after the fourth flush, her 12 months a year allergies completely cleared up. So, the fact that your allergies are clearing up may very well be an indication you're making some headway on flushing the gall bladder.

    RE: Cholestyramine -- I've never been able to determine if this is by prescription only or is something easily available OTC.

    A couple more items: I read once that radishes are excellent for dissolving gall stones. Apparently if a gall stone is put in a jar of radish juice, it will be completely dissolved by the following morning.

    Also, I posted on my MMS thread recently how I've begun adding some MMS to my coffee enemas with good results. Just one thing I've noticed is less of a tenderness in my liver and gallbladder reflexology points. This would seem to indicate the MMS is initiating some good things.

    Regards, Wayne
    <br>[<i>This Message was Edited on 08/07/2008</i>]
  19. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Tooks, Redhummingbird, Waynesrhythm:

    Thanks for your comments on the gall bladder flush.

    At present I'm in Telluride, Colorado, where the air is clean as a whistle. 9500 feet up and no mold plumes in evidence.

    (I currently am writing up a little book explaining plumes and everything else related to poison mold, and so hopefully this will make sense soon.)

    I am feeling really great too! Like 100%, "in excellent health," great.

    Unfortunately, this only will last as long as I'm here. Back in Chicago, I'll sink right back to 70-80%. Argh.

    So my goal is to detoxify some of the mold poison while I'm here. Perhaps that will lower my sensitivity to poison outside my body, increasing my functioning in Chicago.

    I'm going to try the cholestyramine (csm) in a couple of weeks.

    (Cholestyramine is a prescription drug approved for treatment of high cholesterol. It gets rid of biotoxins like lyme or mold toxin by grabbing them in the digestive tract and escorting them out.)

    Per Dr. Shoemaker's recommendation, I'm hoping to use the drug Actos along with the csm. This is supposed to lower the herx (officially an "intensification reaction"), which I have been getting through detox with csm or brown seaweed. I sure hope it works!

    In preparation, I'm going to do that gall bladder cleanse. I'll start the first part tomorrow, I think. It certainly should be interesting!

    The only unfortunate thing is that I don't have my juicer here. Otherwise I could buy pounds of radishes and make cups and cups of radish juice.

    Ah well. I'll just buy some radishes and eat a few.

    Wayne, you seem to find that MMS to be a good thing all around.

    Would you be willing to give info (either here or in a separate thread) about all the things that it seems to have done for you?

    I'm especially interested because of the fact that high-dose IV's of Vitamin C seem to be doing a decent job of killing pathogens.

    I got a big die-off reaction the first couple times I used them, and my doctors say that they should indeed kill stuff.

    Apparently if too much Vitamin C to be used or excreted all at once, hydrogen peroxide is created in the cells. This seems to be toxic to bugs (bacteria anyway....viruses may be tougher).

    Rich van K said that MMS may be even more effective at this. I think he said that rather than hydrogen peroxide, it created hydrogen chloride. Something like that.

    Have you noticed anything that would suggest that the MMS is killing bugs?

    Why do you think it's been helpful in the coffee enemas?

    What else do you think it does for you?

    Thanks much for your help, all! I will report back regarding how things are going.

    Best, Lisa

  20. mariepats

    mariepats New Member

    I also suffer from severe mold poisoning and I just found out about the benefits of coffee enema. What I'm really concern about is that once I start doing enemas I will have to do them everyday. That happened to me many years ago. I just don't have the normal urge to have regular movements once I'm taking enemas.&lt;BR&gt;
    Anyway, while I was in college that was when I had my first known exposure to mold, but I didn't even know anything about mold and it's danger to the human body. I was so sick I still don't even know how I actually made it throught that first semester. What I did at the time was to take dandelion, slippery elm and a few other herbs, I can't really remember the name of all of them. I did that consistently for about one year. What I also did that to take daily enema, with just warm water. I was constipated due to the mold. I didn't know until a few day ago the theraputic benefits of enemas. I lived in that house even after the attack for approximately 2 years. Within three months I was back to my normal self. I'm not suggesting that this will work for everyone, because I got exposed again, but this time it was for a longer time frame. I'm extremely sick, but working on getting recovered.