DHEA vs. 7KetoDHEA?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by munch1958, Jan 14, 2007.

  1. munch1958

    munch1958 Member

    Does anyone have any experience with 7-Keto-DHEA being less effective than DHEA? I'm not finding much information on the efficacy of 7-Keto vs. DHEA on the web so I thought I would share my experience with both.

    I started with FFC in March and by May I was feeling better than I felt in years. I had been taking a compounded dose of 50 mg. DHEA and 50 mg. pregnenolone since January. My DHEA lab result was 39 in March.

    I started feeling "OFF" towards the end of July. Then I had a total crash. I've been searching for a reason for the abrupt turnaround for months. Thanks to Lisa Petrison's very informative posts on adrenal health my "little grey cells" have been churning away.

    The whole time I've been on 7-Keto my hair and skin have been very dry plus I've not had to pluck any stray chin hairs. I've had some coarse "fishing line" like hair growing on spots under my chin since I was a teenager.

    During my FFC office visit in June, my doctor switched me to 7-Keto because in my case the DHEA should not convert into testosterone. I finished up the bottle I had and started on the 7-Keto in early July.

    After a new round of labs in Nov, it is clear to me that my crash is related to low adrenal function & low thyroid issues. I've been taking 50 mg. of 7-Keto since July and my DHEA levels are < 15! When I was feeling great my DHEA was 131.

    I saw Dr. David Edelberg for the first time on 1-7-07. He made the comment that I should be on regular DHEA because in his practice he has found that 7-Keto does NOT work. Based on my blood tests, I would say it does not either.






  2. cherylsue

    cherylsue Member

    Thanks, Munch. I just bought some today and took a pill. Too bad. I probably can't take it back. We'll see. I don't want to mess around with my hormones.

    Thanks again for the info,

    CherylSue
  3. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    The thing I've never found out for sure (despite considerable searching) is how 1 mg of regular DHEA compares to 1 mg of 7-Keto DHEA. I am certain that 7-Keto is weaker, but I've never figured out how much weaker.

    I plan to talk about my doctor about this when I see him in early March. We will be reviewing my hormones at that time.

    The following information may be relevant, though.

    Pure Encapsulation is a brand of supplements sold through doctors' offices (and through the "grey market" on the Internet). I have found it to be extremely good quality, and the information they provide seems to me to be extremely accurate compared to what I already know about products.

    They sell DHEA in 5 mg, 10 mg and 25 mg capsules.

    They sell 7-Keto DHEA in 25 mg, 50 mg and 100 mg capsules.

    This suggests to me that they believe that regular DHEA is much stronger than 7-Keto DHEA. (They usually are very good about selling products in appropriate doses, I've found.)

    Munch, I took 50 mg of DHEA when I first got sick. My unsupplemented levels were about 1/10 of what they should have been, and it took that much to feel better. I didn't have any side effects (such as facial hair growth, acne or oily skin) either. For severely burnt out CFS patients, large amounts of DHEA can be appropriate. (I've discussed this with 4 good doctors, and all have agreed.)

    Anyway, if we use the Pure Encapsulations comparison, 5 mg of regular DHEA would equal 25 mg of 7-Keto.

    Thus, 50 mg of 7 Keto would equal only 10 mg of regular DHEA. If Munch was thriving on 50 mg of regular DHEA, then the amount of 7-Keto she was taking (assuming that this theory is correct) would have been only 1/5 of what she needed.

    I don't have any first-hand knowledge of this since I've not yet tried 7-Keto. (I may after my doctor's appointment in March.) It sounds consistent with the results Dr. Edelberg has gotten, though. Maybe it does work, but you just need to take a lot of it.

    CherylSue, if you're conservative about hormones but want to give DHEA a try, what you bought seems like it may be the perfect thing. It will allow you to start out on a small amount to see if you get any effect. And the fact that it doesn't convert to testosterone or estrogen makes it a cleaner experiment.

    I strongly recommend getting your DHEA level tested if you can, of course. But a little experiment for a short while shouldn't (I don't think) do you harm, as long as you don't continue if you get side effects (again, facial hair, oilier skin, or acne).

    I would be a little disinclined to take it for a long time without a test.

    However, I bet if you were already on DHEA and asked a doctor to test your levels, s/he'd do it. It's kind of their responsibility then.

    Sometimes you've got to work the system a bit, if you don't have access to the sort of doctors who will help you. Or at least, I've done so on a few occasions to good results.
    [This Message was Edited on 01/14/2007]
  4. cherylsue

    cherylsue Member

    Thanks for this info. I bought Vitamin Shoppe brand of 7-Keto. I'll check out the Pure Encapsulations brand.

    ChrerylSue
  5. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    What dosage of the 7-Keto did you buy?
  6. cherylsue

    cherylsue Member

    Lisa: I had purchased 25mg 7-Keto from Vitamin Shoppe.


    Here's info I found on the net:

    Specifications for Pure Encapsulations 7-KETO Dhea By7-KETO DHEA is a versatile, patented DHEA metabolite providing metabolic, immune and memory support without converting to the sex hormones testosterone or estrogen.* 7-KETO DHEA, a safe and natural metabolite of DHEA, was the subject of research for over a decade at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. Of over 150 DHEA compounds tested, 7-KETO proved to be the most promising form. Researchers discovered that 7- KETO does not convert to testosterone or estrogen, minimizing androgenic activity, and supports various physiological processes. It is several times more potent than DHEA in stimulating the thermogenic enzymes of the liver, promotes basal metabolism, and helps to increase the lean/adipose ratio. These actions safely support a leaner BMI (Body Mass Index) and healthy weight control. In a double-blind study involving 30 overweight adults, 7-KETO supported healthy body composition and BMI when combined with exercise. Other patented applications include enhancing healthy immu Vitamins & Nutrition TypeNutritional SupplementsFormulaCapsulesSupplement TypeDHEADosage50 mgSupVitMin TypeDHEA

    Lisa: What do you think of the claim that it is more potent than DHEA?

    CherylSue

  7. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I actually was reading this today on the Pure Encapsulations site. My thought was that it doesn't say that it's stronger than DHEA in general---rather, that it's more potent with regard to specific functions:

    "It is several times more potent than DHEA in stimulating the thermogenic enzymes of the liver, promotes basal metabolism, and helps to increase the lean/adipose ratio. These actions safely support a leaner BMI (Body Mass Index) and healthy weight control. "

    Like most people, I'm interested in a leaner BMI and in healthy weight control. (Even when I was underweight a few years ago, it wasn't in a healthy way.)

    However, I am much more interested in DHEA for the other reasons we keep talking about on the board (e.g. being better able to handle and recover from stress).

    It does not say here that 7-Keto is better at this function than DHEA. Based on what I've heard thus far, it seems like it may be worse.

    I don't know why it's been so hard for me to find comparisons between the two in terms of strength thus far. My doctor undoubtedly will have the answer, when I talk with him about hormones in March.

    Meanwhile, I will be very interested in hearing what the rep tells Jolie.

    **

    CherylSue, I think that it would be fine for you to try the brand that you have at home already, if you want to give DHEA (7-Keto or otherwise) a short try.

    I have had good experiences with Pure Encapsulations and tend to buy it (unless they don't sell what I want---where's the oregano oil, for instance???). But there are lots of other brands that are good too, of course.