ESTROGEN DOMINANCE and CFS---This is news!!!

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by ohmyaching, Jun 14, 2003.

  1. ohmyaching

    ohmyaching New Member

    Wowie, I have been reading Dr. Lee's book "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Menopause, The Breakthrough Book On Natural Progesterone. The more I read about his concept of estrogen dominance the more it sounded like the same problems and symptoms for CFS. So I wrote him a letter about the similarity and someone who works with him wrote back. Below is my letter. (I edited out some irrelevant stuff.) with their response.

    Estrogen dominance is an imbalance between estrogen and progesterone resulting in too much estrogen and not enough progesterone. The causes maybe failure to ovulate, menopause and environmental toxins.

    Dear Dr. Lee,
    I've been reading your book, "WHAT YOUR
    MENOPAUSE". I could be the poster child for
    estrogen dominance. For years I have suffered from
    extreme fatigue, allergies, irregular periods,
    endometriosis and lately high blood pressure. I have
    been arguing with my doctors for the last twenty
    plus years that I feel like I have Chronic Fatigue
    Syndrome (CFS)..... The symptoms of CFS very
    closely match those you discuss in your book as
    estrogen dominance,..... thyroiditis- hypothyroidism,
    autoimmune disease, chronic fatigue, endometriosis,
    sleep problems, poor memory..... Literally
    thousands of people are said to have CFS and that
    number just keeps growing. ...... If CFS is directly
    associated with estrogen dominance then someone
    needs to get the word out.
    I believe you did a great disservice to people when
    you titled your book. You made it sound like it was
    a book on menopause, but in fact it is so much
    more. People need to hear how xenoestrogens in our
    environment are posing a BIG threat to the health
    and welfare of everybody. If CFS is any indication,
    then the threat is closer than people know. .....
    There is an article on the front page of the Immune
    Support website titled "Understanding Chronic
    Fatigue Syndrome" by Jill McLaughlin. It states
    that:"Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS)
    disproportionately affects women, but has long been
    under-recognized and under-diagnosed" "CFS was
    found to be more common in women, with 522
    females per 100,000 versus 291 males per 100,000.
    When comparing the prevalence of CFS in women
    to the prevalence of other diseases, CFS emerges as
    a serious women's health concern."
    I personally have been sick and tired for the
    longest time and have received lots of antibiotics in
    my past. It has long been known that antibiotics can
    wipe out intestinal flora yet little is done to replenish
    it. I don’t think it has been determined whether our
    bodies can recover naturally from this onslaught of
    antibiotic medication or if we function at less then
    optimum from then on due to poor diet, poor
    lifestyle and opportunistic secondary infections like
    candida that take advantage of the situation. I'm
    pretty sure I had candida due to the characteristic
    discharge. At one time I was told that my constant
    sickness, allergies and fatigue could be candida
    related, but finding a doctor who cares about
    treating candida is a miracle. My doctor would only
    treat it vaginally and ignored my protests that it
    could also be other places in my body like my
    intestines. If a person is lucky enough to find a
    doctor who treats candida throughout the body that
    doctor usually has a waiting list of patients a mile
    long. Candida can have a direct effect upon
    estrogen levels. Dr. Sherry Rogers, who has been
    treating candida for years, has this to say on page
    250 in her book "Tired Or Toxic" : "Candida
    organisms can raise havoc by producing hormones
    that mimic human hormones and even receptors for
    our hormones on their surfaces!(Fungal Metabolites,
    VolII, Turner, WB, Academic Press, 1983) to which
    we can react or which can cause feedback inhibition
    of our own hormones." The Endometriosis Assoc.
    says in their newsletter, vol.17, no. 2, 1996, that "if
    Candida albicans is present at the time and location
    of an allergic response, the symptoms may be more
    severe due to the ability of Candida to synergize
    with histamine. Treatments aimed at eliminating
    residual Candida, inhibiting the synthesis of
    prostaglandin E2 or preventing allergic responses in
    susceptible women will sometimes end the cycle of
    immune suppression and allow the person's immune
    system to prevent the future growth of Candida."
    They also say that candida is linked to hormonal
    disruption, it can "bind and use our hormones,
    including estrogen, progestrone and the adrenal
    gland hormone corticosterone......A number of
    observers have noted that Candida sensitivity or
    overgrowth may begin in humans or lab animals
    after exposure to such chemicals as formaldehyde,
    pesticides, and dioxin and related compounds."
    When I look back at some of the symptoms I had
    during my periods I do see evidence of estrogen
    excess. I had what I thought were small black and
    blue marks which always developed at a certain time
    of my cycle. I now believe them to be purpura
    because they were purplish in color. Their
    appearance was so regular, coming at that time of
    the month when my estrogen levels would have been
    at their highest. In Rhodale Press’s "The Complete
    Book of Vitamins" page 721 it says;
    Some physicians believe that because of the
    increasing use of estrogens, both for birthcontrol
    and as a menopausal crutch, more and more women
    are becoming prone to a condition known as
    purpura, the disease of the purple spots, a
    hemorrhagic disorder characterized by spontaneous
    bruising or bleeding, petechiae (tiny bumps) in the
    skin and mucous membranes, and sometimes a
    marked decrease in circulating platelets. It has
    already been determined that estrogen is a known
    vitamin E antagonist. It can cause a deficiency of
    this important nutrient which among other
    well-documented benefits to your body, can actually
    help to preserve the integrity of the capillary walls
    and prevent such spots. Purpura, according to a
    study published in the Journal of Vitaminology
    (18,125-130, 1972) could very well be just such a
    colorful manifestation of a vitamin E deficiency."
    and, I might add, an indication of estrogen
    I also had endstage endometriosis. The
    Endometriosis Assoc. has stated that there appears
    to be a relationship between candida and
    endometriosis. They recommend treating candida
    and balancing hormone levels as part of their
    treatment plan for endometriosis. Studies say that
    women with CFS have a greater incidence of
    endometriosis than what you would normally find in
    the general population. Because woman with CFS
    are more apt to have endometriosis I feel they
    should be
    following the Endometriosis Association's
    recommended plan for treating endometriosis. It
    might actually help prevent them from developing
    endometriosis. Unfortunately I have not been able to
    find a doctor willing to implement it. As an
    interesting sidebar, I know of two cases of
    endometriosis (growth of endometrial tissue outside
    the endometrium) in men. How can that be? As far
    as I know men don’t have endometriums. The
    outstanding similarity in both of these cases was that
    the men were each receiving estrogen
    .........L. Preston

    The Reply:

    L Preston -

    Dr. Lee's "...PREmenopause" book should answer
    many of your questions. And yes, a lot of CFS could
    probably be resolved with hormone balance - and in
    fact we get a lot of reports from women whose
    symptoms of CFS cleared up when they got their
    hormone balanced. Dr. Lee believes that
    endometriosis may be caused by exposure to
    xenoestrogens in the womb.

    Why don't you read the PREmenopause book and
    write back if you have more questions after that.
    You might also enjoy Dr. Lee's newsletter.

    V. Hopkins

    P.S. I'm going to see if I can reprint that article by
    Jill McLaughlin in our newsletter - it's a good one -
    thanks! Also, the reason Dr. Lee thinks that
    progesterone might help with CFS is that it tends to
    modulate an over-active/reactive immune system,
    and so may be helpful with that component of the
    disease. Have you read Safe Uses of Cortisol by
    Jefferies? That should be a must-read by everyone
    with CFS - again, small, physiologic doses of natural
    hydrocortisone can help keep the immune system in
    check just enough to keep symptoms at bay - e.g.
    not a cure but an assist.

    I would just like to say that people using cortisone
    should be very very careful. I wouldn’t recommend
    it, but printed what they had to say for their opinion.
    I tried using cortisone cream for aches and pains and
    that’s when I developed growths on fingers.
    Related? I don’t know, but most things I read about
    cortisones are very negative --ah, but then it may not have been "natural" cortisone.

    [This Message was Edited on 06/14/2003]
  2. kimo

    kimo New Member

    I am very familiar with Dr. Lee's book, I have had it for over 7 years. I have been on progesterone cream for years too. It has helped my fibromyalgia and Cf. I posted this many times but not much response. I had a complete hysterectomy at 28 and will soon be 43. I think Dr. Lee has a good book and some good info. Thanks for posting...KIM
  3. pinkquartz

    pinkquartz New Member

    i have used this cream for helped to regulate my very heavy periods.........but not much more and then when my period was so bad last month i posted here to madwolf who said he would test for estrogen levels.....he mentioned three differents parts of estrogen eg estrodiol, + 2 others.
    also i talked to my nutritionist who had been reading the book* Screaming to be Heard * by elizabeth lee Vliet, and suddenly shes saying to me i am too low in estrogen, and must stop using the progesterone cream til we re balance my hormones. oh she never put me on the cream...i have taken it for around 4 years after a friend recommended it

    Any one got any comments, i have read a little research i think i am low in estrogen ?!
    Is anyone a big fan of the Progesterone cream ?

  4. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    I still feel better on HRT. I had thought that by now, well into menopause, I would be able to give up my HRT, but I can't. I feel like hell without it. I have gradually decreased my estrogen to a small dose, but the progesterone is still the same dose as when I was taking a large dose of the estrogen. Perhaps by keeping the progesterone level the same, it has eliminated the estrogen dominance.

    Love, Mikie
  5. lucky

    lucky New Member

    I have been on estrogen patches for so many years now and like you, I would not survive without this hormone, even lowering it is not possible, I have tried. But, I had a complete hysterectomy and don't need progesterone as far as I know. On top of it, I cannot tolerate it and my CFS symptoms were much worse with it when one doctor after the operation put me on the two hormones. However, I sometimes use testerone cream which is also of some importance for past menopausal women and which helps a little with the fatigue as well.
    Sincerely, Lucky

    [This Message was Edited on 06/14/2003]
  6. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    Dr. Roby has a website you may want to check out. I am familiar with Dr. Lee's book.
    I am on specially compounded progesterone drops. It has made a major difference in my symptoms in less than 20 days. Like you, I have numerous symptoms of estrogen dominance. I thought I needed estrogen after menopause to help my bad mood, but progesterone works even better, without the weight gain and headaches and other risks, and it can reverse osteopenia,which I also have and the estrogen did not help it. My holistic doc says she never gives estrogen to anyone because most of the symptoms they complain about are already due to too much estrogen vs. progesterone. My estrogen level is only 19, but the progesterone still works for me.
  7. ohmyaching

    ohmyaching New Member

    Dr. Lee stresses the use of "natural" progesterone. The synthethic progesterones like progestens will not do the same job and can create side effects. I wrote this letter to him because he says that progesterone increases mineral content of bone whereas estrogen does not. My teeth are starting to become brittle and I thought the progesterone may help strengthen them although I'm not sure how much progesterone to take.
    I believe you may get your period back if you're in menopause and I don't want to start my endometriosis bleeding again. I've got some more research to do to find just the right amount.
  8. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    Hgh stimulants is what has allowed me to cut down on the estrogen. Hgh is a very powerful hormone and greatly affects all the other hormones. It helps my skin, vaginal lubrication, and libido. I had to lower the estrogen when I started the Hgh because I started having periods again. ACK!!!

    I have also heard that women need testosterone but only because when they start HRT, it messes with the ratio of testosterone to estrogen.

    I've read that as women age, they become more like men in personality and that men become more like women due to changes in hormones. In fact, the 50's is supposed to be the ideal time for marriage for singles because both partners are closer together in temperment. Well, there's still hope for me, but Mr. Right had better hurry up and make his appearance :) Actually, I'm quite happy as a single person, but all my friends have moved away or moved on because of their life changes. I need to get back to work and back to socializing.

    Love, Mikie
  9. schnoodle

    schnoodle New Member

    Hi there. I had a hysterectomy about 10 years ago and have been taking 2 mg of estrace ever since. It has worked great. After getting the Dr. Lee information from a friend and trying to get well and rid myself of toxins, I tried the progesterone cream and went off my estrace. I wasn't too bad for a couple of months. I know that estrogen is stored in the fat cells in your body. So that is why I think I was not too bad for a couple of months. My body a a supply of estrogen. Anyways, after a couple of months I completely fell apart. I had terrible hot flashes and was a complete emotional mess. I went back on the estrace and was fine again. I will never go off of it again. So, just be careful. It may not be for everyone.
  10. pinkquartz

    pinkquartz New Member

    i was getting to feel more confused, all the other posts were so into the argument that we are estrogen dominent and i am no longer sure this is true.....please read my post above....i have taken the progesterone cream for 4 has done nothing at all for the CFS/FMS symptoms.

    i hope some more info comes in on this.
    Has anyone else read *Screaming to be heard* by Dr. lee Vliet ?
    She's a US doctor and the book came out in 1995 ist ed.

    Cos i can't figure this out yet, but my symptoms are now more low estrogen than high.....and i am thinking of trying the Estrace, if i can get it over here, and if i decide it will be worth spending out in the tests.
    [This Message was Edited on 06/15/2003]
  11. schnoodle

    schnoodle New Member

    Hi there. Yes, I think it would be worth your while to get the blood test regarding your estrogen levels. That's what my doc did and he said I had practically no estrogen. This was even before my hysterectomy. I have taken hormones for years. I know there is a lot of controversy over hormones but you must do what is best for you. Everyone is different. The progesterone cream was definately not for me. I need my estrace. I found that out more than ever after the try with the progesterone cream. Good luck to you. I know the hormone issue is very frustrating. But once you get it all figured out you will feel much better, at least in some areas. It hasn't helped with the fibro, but certainly does help in many other ways. Let us know what happens.