**FELT ROTTEN update, switch to sodium ascorbate??****

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Jeanne-in-Canada, Aug 11, 2005.

  1. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    Did 2 days in a row of shopping last wknd, and felt like death Mon, worse Tues, then sudden change of weather yesterday to rain and 100% humidity. I swear my already coagulated blood turns to pea soup on days like that, yesterday was horrid.

    I thought maybe the shopping this wknd hit me so hard because I was still trying to get over a bad flare from the wknd before. Pushed myself to go to family do, started my period that day, and then helped Ron lift 2 loveseats and our queen mattress onto his truck when we got home. Guess I may have been asking for it, oops.

    Just occurred to me though, I switched from my old standby of calcium ascorbate powder, to sodium ascorbate powder on Tuesday too and it's been going downhill frm there. I thought the sodium ascorbate could only be an improvement, since I suspected all that extra calcium was making me so creaky and joints popping. But some experience a very strong herx from salt and vit. C protocol. Not sure what form they take, but it's a Lyme treatment instead of abx, that many are saying is more effective.

    So I wonder if the sodium ascorbate could be making me feel worse, froma herx. I can't even take the small dieoff I get from 1 alpha lipoic acid and 1 olive leaf pill per day now, and it seemed like pretty small potatoes till this week.

    What do you think?


    Jeanne
    [This Message was Edited on 08/19/2005]
    [This Message was Edited on 08/19/2005]
  2. rockyjs

    rockyjs Member

    Jeanne,

    That's actually the only form of Vitamin C I tolerate, but it does seem to kick my immune system into a higher gear and I feel worse for a while.

    I also get herxes from vitamin E, olive leaf extract, essential fatty acids like flax, primrose or borage oils, etc. It feels like every cell in my body starts hurting. I can calm it down again by taking some L-histidine powder but I don't understand why my immune system seems so wimpy when it comes to killing viruses, and then just cranking it up a little makes me feel like I'm dying. I almost never get bacterial infections but I would like to knock out some of the viral stuff.

    Jan
  3. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    I was doing very well w/ my new supplement regime till this week, and I rarely feel this wiped out, tired, sore, lethargic and useless, all at once that is. Not since I was hell herxing on Questran that is.

    I'm curious why you can't tolerate other forms of vit. C, what does calcium ascorbate do to you?

    I noticed it's alot harder to find sodium ascorbate. Only a few places in Ottawa sell it, and one said it is usually only used for animals. Or for Lymies doing salt/C protocol.


    JEanne
  4. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

  5. tansy

    tansy New Member

    can bring about herxes on very low levels of both sodium and vit C, so it's a possiblity.

    Since increased humidity may be implicated it looks more like an electrolyte problem, additional sodium may have imbalanced your sodium-potassium levels further. I am doing a lot better since using half the recommended dose of Recuperati-ion, I've even stopped getting the electrostatic shocks that had become an annoying part of my everyday life.

    love, Tansy

    [This Message was Edited on 08/11/2005]
  6. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    be that.

    I usually take 3-4 grams a day of calcium ascorbate powder, been using it for at least 10 yrs. I double it if I feel really rotten, and it warded off any colds and flus for 4 yrs, pretty amazing.

    So when I strted the s.a. Tues w/ my supper vitamins, I took half my usual dose to start. Next day, since I was feeling worse yet, I doubled it, figuring it would help like the cal.asc. always did, worse yet. This morning when it occurred to me, I immediately threw out the rest of my morning dose and took cal. asc. instead.

    I do feel a bit better, still very weak though and have a very painful knot in one shoulderblade that I woke up w/. can't get comfortable AT ALL. I think you are right about imbalance of electrolytes. My stomache can't take supplemental magnesium unless it's in w/ my vit. or milk of magnesium. I'm the same way w/ calcium, can only tolerate it w/ multis or in my cal. asc. I seem to need just the right type of mineral combos. I've always tolerated multis and minineral combos well, but I've had a hard time since I've been in the country w/ the hard mineral water. Our last place, even my IBS persian could drink it, but I had to switch to bottled or else I got so constipated and felt like I drank Draino all the time.

    I guess I'll have to go back to cal. asc. Luckily I have a bit left, that my instinct told me to hold onto, and not to just mix it w/ the new stuff.

    When I feel strong eno0ugh, maybe I'll try intoducing a tiny amount back? Maybe?

    This has been a very rough ride. I've never had a problem w/ salt before, my doc says to eat extra, and I only use sea salt. Was doing sodium bicarbinate for awhile to alkalize and was fine w/ that too, exept for trying to gag down the taste of it, tastes soapy, yucko.

    Do you have any info. on why the salt/C combo is so powerful?



    Jeanne
  7. tansy

    tansy New Member

    on why it's so powerful, it seems to be the combo that works better than salt on it's own and those who are on the salt/vit C suggest they work in different ways but synergistically. The natural salts seem to be more popular, perhaps because they provide small amounts of other minerals too, this might off set potential imbalances.

    Salt can kill off both bacteria and parasites, however those Dx with babesia as well have found it necessary to add in other treatments for that.

    Doing well on salt/C may also be occurring because those making progress actually need more natural salt in addition to it's bug killing qualities. It's a bit like the discussions on ph levels in the blood and diet, salt can work well for some and not for others.

    I have yet to read an agreed upon explanation, but there continue to be many hypotheses.

    Two summers ago I tried natural salt; I was already taking enough vit C to make it similar to the salt/C protocol. I got into real trouble when it got hot, it made my more recent reactions to higher temps even worse. It took getting into a similar mess again when herxing to realise some of these problems were possibly attributable to potassium levels dropping.

    I had tried potassium in the past without too much success, the balance of electrolytes in Recupert-ion made more sense and looked like a safer option for a trail run.

    love, Tansy




    [This Message was Edited on 08/11/2005]
  8. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    I haven't showered since Monday!!

    I can't stand myself anymore. I don't know how my cat can stand me, but he licks his own bum, so I guess that explains that.

    Even Ron may start wondering soon, and he's the weirdo who thinks I'm sexy w/ greasy hair (becasue it's laise faire he says). I'm going to need a hose and a chisle soon. Ick.


    Jeanne
  9. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    Woke up w/ a charlie horse, pulled muscle pain in left shoulder blade today. Couldn't get comfortable all day, but didn't think much of it, super weak as I said.

    then tonight, out of blue, I get A REALLY STRONG HEART PALPITATION. Then an hour later, WHOLE LEFT ARM GOES NUMB AND INTO MY HAND! I dont' do numb, I do pain. I put all my symptoms together, called Ron home, and called TeleHealth Ontario. A toll free # to talk to a nurse, in lieu of clogging up emerg.

    I seem to be better, but I was losing clumps of hair in the shower. I figured if I'm going to maybe have a heart attack, I don't want to be 4 days scuzzy when they treat me. I was doing my best to stay calm, but it was scary.

    the nurse at TeleHealth was impressive and very sympathetic and understanding about FM/CFS/MCS. If you are going to have that crap to deal w/, then Ottawa is a pretty good place to do it. She said it was a tough call, because of my other health issues and some of my other symptoms where chronic. So she said to call doc first thing, and if anything got any worse or new symptoms to get to emerg.

    Rough day! Whew.


    jeanne
  10. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    Anyone else?

    That was scary. My life flashed before my eyes, I made my peace w/ God, there was theme music and everything!

    Do I get a placque, a platitude, a hug, a head nugie?


    Jaeenn
    *still scrambled*
  11. Manwithfibro

    Manwithfibro New Member

    I had a PT tell me to drink some baking soda in water to counteract the acidy feeling I have and you know what? I went into a major major major flare. Why? I don't know. I tried it twice just to make sure and yep, it nailed me. Why would salt cause this? Any thoughts?
  12. tansy

    tansy New Member

    even more like potassium levels dropping. What you describe has happened to me, and are some of the problems I had when I increased my salt levels and then it got hot. These are among the symptoms that have improved since adding a few things to my protocol especially the Recuperat-ion salts.

    Do you have problems with electrostatic shocks? I used to but they are gone now.

    Behan, a researcher in the UK, writes about PWCs cells leaking magnesium and potassium and how much of our already depleted energy reserves are being used up trying to deal with this.

    Electrolyte salts can help to restore normal blood ph and that in itself can produce a lot of benefits.

    I am sure you already know about potassium but I will post an article on it here which others might find useful too.

    love, Tansy


    [This Message was Edited on 08/12/2005]
  13. tansy

    tansy New Member

    Elson M. Haas M.D. (Excerpted from Staying Healthy with Nutrition: The Complete Guide to Diet and Nutritional Medicine, Celestial Arts)


    Potassium

    Potassium is a very significant body mineral, important to both cellular and electrical function. It is one of the main blood minerals called "electrolytes" (the others are sodium and chloride), which means it carries a tiny electrical charge (potential). Potassium is the primary positive ion (cation) found within the cells, where 98 percent of the 120 grams of potassium in the body is found. The blood serum contains about 4-5 mg. (per 100 ml.) of the total potassium; the red blood cells contain 420 mg., which is why a red-blood-cell level is a better indication of an individual's potassium status than the commonly used serum level.

    Magnesium helps maintain the potassium in the cells, but the sodium and potassium balance is as finely tuned as those of calcium and phosphorus or calcium and magnesium. Research has found that a high-sodium diet with low potassium intake influences vascular volume and tends to elevate the blood pressure. Then doctors may prescribe diuretics that can cause even more potassium loss, aggravating the underlying problems. The appropriate course is to shift to natural, potassium foods and away from high-salt foods, lose weight if needed, and follow an exercise program to improve cardiovascular tone and physical stamina.

    The natural diet high in fruits, vegetables, and whole grains is rich in potassium and low in sodium, helping to maintain normal blood pressure and sometimes lowering elevated blood pressure. The body contains more potassium than sodium, about nine ounces to four, but the American diet, with its reliance on fast foods, packaged convenience foods, chips, and salt has become high in sodium (salt). Because the body's biochemical functions are based on the components found in a natural diet, special mechanisms conserve sodium, while potassium is conserved somewhat less.

    Potassium is well absorbed from the small intestine, with about 90 percent absorption, but is one of the most soluble minerals, so it is easily lost in cooking and processing foods. Most excess potassium is eliminated in the urine; some is eliminated in the sweat. When we perspire a great deal, we should replace our fluids with orange juice or vegetable juice containing potassium rather than just taking salt tablets.The kidneys are the chief regulators of our body potassium, keeping the blood levels steady even with wide variation in intake. The adrenal hormone aldosterone stimulates elimination of potassium by the kidneys. Alcohol, coffee (and caffeine drinks), sugar, and diuretic drugs, however, cause potassium losses and can contribute to lowering the blood potassium. This mineral is also lost with vomiting and diarrhea.

    Sources: Potassium is found in a wide range of foods. Many fruits and vegetables are high in potassium and low in sodium and, as discussed, help prevent hypertension. Most of the potassium is lost when processing or canning foods, while less is lost from frozen fruits or vegetables.

    Leafy green vegetables such as spinach, parsley, and lettuce, as well as broccoli, peas, lima beans, tomatoes, and potatoes, especially the skins, all have significant levels of potassium. Fruits that contain this mineral include oranges and other citrus fruits, bananas, apples, avocados, raisins, and apricots, particularly dried. Whole grains, wheat germ, seeds, and nuts are high-potassium foods. Fish such as flounder, salmon, sardines, and cod are rich in potassium, and many meat foods contain even more potassium than sodium, although they often have additional sodium added as salt.

    Functions:

    Potassium is very important in the human body. Along with sodium, it regulates the water balance and the acid-base balance in the blood and tissues. Potassium enters the cell more readily than does sodium and instigates the brief sodium-potassium exchange across the cell membranes. In the nerve cells, this sodium-potassium flux generates the electrical potential that aids the conduction of nerve impulses. When potassium leaves the cell, it changes the membrane potential and allows the nerve impulse to progress. This electrical potential gradient, created by the "sodium-potassium pump," helps generate muscle contractions and regulates the heartbeat.

    Potassium is very important in cellular biochemical reactions and energy metabolism; it participates in the synthesis of protein from amino acids in the cell.

    Potassium also functions in carbohydrate metabolism; it is active in glycogen and glucose metabolism, converting glucose to glycogen that can be stored in the liver for future energy. Potassium is important for normal growth and for building muscle.

    Uses:

    In medicine, potassium is one of the most commonly prescribed minerals. It is also commonly measured in biochemical testing and is supplemented if it is low. Because potassium is crucial to cardiovascular and nerve functions and is lost in diuretic therapy for edema or hypertension, a prevalent American disease, it must be added as a dietary supplement frequently. As stated before, the average American diet has reversed the natural high potassium-low sodium intake, and a shift back to this more healthful balance will help reduce some types of elevated blood pressure.

    Supplementing potassium can be helpful in treating hypertension specifically caused by a hyperresponse to excess sodium.

    Pharmacological preparations of potassium are commonly prescribed for many of these conditions. A 10 percent potassium chloride solution is often given, but its taste is unpleasant. More easily used formulas are tablets that are swallowed or effervescent tablets. K-Lor, Slow-K, K-Lyte, and Kaochlor are common preparations. Time-release formulas such as Micro-K are also available.

    Potassium chloride has occasionally been helpful in treating infant colic, some cases of allergies, and headaches. During and after diarrhea, potassium replacement may be necessary, and many people feel better taking potassium during weight-loss programs. Fatigue or weakness, especially in the elderly, is often alleviated with supplemental potassium, along with magnesium. Additional potassium may also be required for dehydration states after fluid losses and may be used to prevent or reduce hangover symptoms after alcohol consumption.

    Deficiency and Toxicity: Elevations or depletions of this important mineral can cause problems and, in the extreme, even death. Maintaining consistent levels of potassium in the blood and cells is vital to body function.

    Even with high intakes of potassium, the kidneys will clear any excess, and blood levels will not be increased. For elevated potassium levels, called hyperkalemia, to occur, there must usually be other factors involved; decrease in renal function is the most likely cause. Major infection, gastrointestinal bleeding, and rapid protein breakdown also may cause elevated potassium levels. Cardiac function is affected by hyperkalemia; electrocardiogram changes can be seen in this condition.

    Deficiency of potassium is much more common, especially with aging or chronic disease. Some common problems that have been associated with low potassium levels include hypertension, congestive heart failure, cardiac arrythmias, fatigue, and depression and other mood changes.

    Many factors reduce body levels of potassium. Diarrhea, vomiting, and other gastrointestinal problems may rapidly reduce potassium. Infants with diarrhea must be watched closely for low blood potassium, termed hypokalemia. Diabetes and renal disease may cause low as well as high potassium levels. Several drugs can cause hypokalemia-diuretic therapy is of most concern; long-term use of laxatives, aspirin, digitalis, and cortisone may also deplete potassium.

    Heat waves and profuse sweating can cause potassium loss and lead to dehydration, with potassium leaving the cells along with sodium and being lost in the urine. This can generate some of the symptoms associated with low potassium; most people are helped rapidly with potassium supplements or potassium-rich foods. People who consume excess sodium can lose extra urinary potassium, and people who eat lots of sugar also may become low in potassium.

    Fatigue is the most common symptom of chronic potassium deficiency. Early symptoms include muscle weakness, slow reflexes, and dry skin or acne; these initial problems may progress to nervous disorders, insomnia, slow or irregular heartbeat, and loss of gastrointestinal tone. A sudden loss of potassium may lead to cardiac arrythmias.

    Low potassium may impair glucose metabolism and lead to elevated blood sugar. In more severe potassium deficiency, there can be serious muscle weakness, bone fragility, central nervous system changes, decreased heart rate, and even death. Potassium is the most commonly measured blood mineral in medicine, and deficiencies must be watched for carefully and treated without delay with supplemental potassium.

    Requirements: There is no specific RDA for potassium, though it is thought that at least 2-2.5 grams per day are needed, or about 0.8-1.5 grams per 1,000 calories consumed. The average American diet includes from 2-6 grams per day.

    In cooking or canning foods, potassium is depleted but sodium is increased, as it is in most American processed foods as well. It is suggested that we include more potassium than sodium in our diets; a ratio of about 2:1 would be ideal. When we increase sodium intake, we should also consume more potassium-rich foods or take a potassium supplement.

    Over-the-counter potassium supplements usually contain 99 mg. per tablet. Prescription potassium is usually measured in milliequivalents (meq.); 1 meq. equals about 64 mg. About 10-20 meq. (640-1280 mg.) per day may be recommended as a supplement to the individual's diet.

    The inorganic potassium salts are found as the sulfate, chloride, oxide, or carbonate. Organic salts are potassium gluconate, fumarate, or citrate. These organic molecules are normally part of our cells and body tissues. Potassium liquids and salt substitutes containing potassium chloride (KCl) are other ways to obtain additional sources of this mineral. Potassium is well absorbed, so it is available to the body in most forms.
  14. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    Rachel,
    I share your sense of hilarity. It crossed my mind. But obviously I'd be more embarrassed being scuzzy than naked.

    Tansy,
    thanks for article, think I saw another you posted too. I skimmed for now, this is something I need to bone up on obviously. I've had to study and be tested on heart anatomy, but have to admit, I suck at anything mechanical and had a hard time grasping. I also tend to gloss over things i'm not good at.


    Jeanne
  15. JLH

    JLH New Member

    I'm so sorry that you have been feeling so rotten lately. I can really sympathize with you.

    I never did understand this herxing thing, even though I've had fibro all my life, so I can't contribute to that conversation.

    But I know the pulled muscle in your shoulder blade and the heart palpatations, numb arm, and even the shower routine!! I've been through all of those!

    I certainly hope you find out that the heart issues were maybe from just all the recent overwork--loading truck and all, and nothing heart related.

    I have a lot of heart issues and hate being hospitalized for them--too many needle sticks for blood, etc. Yuck!

    Please take care of yourself, and get some needed rest!!


    (((Hugs)))
    Janet
  16. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    You say you've been through all the shoulderblade pain, left arm numbness and stuff. What were the reasons for you? You mentioned heart disease. From your own (bitter) personal experience, I can take it straight, what do you figure?

    I see doc tommorrow, but won't be a bit surprised if he sloughs it off as nothing and doesn't even use the stethoscope. And if he does, and my heats beating fine, he'll say, oh, nothing to worry about. I think I'm going to have to insist on an ECG. As far as I know about this, I could easily have been experiencing a mild heart attack yesterday. I am much better today, but I was getting whole left side weakness and numbness to my leg and foot, though the whole side thing was more fleeting.



    Jeanne
  17. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    posted some ?'s for you above, if you are up to it. Hope your day is much better today. Mine is.


    Jeanne
  18. JLH

    JLH New Member

    It's 11:35 p.m. (Saturday) and this is the first chance that I have had to check out the board. I wasn't able to get out of bed until 11:00 a.m., then it takes a few hours for me to be able to stand up and walk (due to my pinched nerve).

    To make matters worse, my husband has been home all day today! Ugh! Not that I mind him being home, but I'm just used to him being out working on the farm all day on the weekends. When he's home, he doesn't like for me to stay on the computer--it's in another room, and I think he feel ignored!! Since all our kids are gone now, it's pretty lonely and quiet here with just the 2 of us!

    So, I had to watch a couple movies with him, and then fix some cookies for my family reunion tomorrow.

    You have probably already gone to the doctor by now; and, if so, I hope everything turned out OK.

    I do have some heart problems. I have a dual-chamber pacemaker, congestive heart failure, an enlarged heart, a heart murmur, supraventricular tachardia, bradycardia, and atrail fibrillation.

    In March of this year, about 3:00 a.m., chest pain woke me up out of a dead sleep. They were very, very intense. It felt like someone was pounding me with a sledge hammer right in the middle of my chest. They would fade out and then hit hard again.

    I got out of bed and sat in my recliner. I tried to remain calm, almost certain that I was right then having a heart attack. I thought "now what will I tell the ambulance personnel or ER when I get there." So when I stopped my emotions and noticed how I felt, I knew that my left shoulder was in pain, my left arm and hand was numb, and I was short of breath.

    My shoulders hurt all of the time, and my arms and hands go numb ocassonally. I also have chest pains from time to time, but they always go away.

    All of these symptoms DID NOT go away. AND ... THEY WERE DIFFERENT than the normal pain that I am always in! That is what scared me!!

    I woke my husband up and told him I THOUGHT I was having a heart attack and he needed to take me to the ER or should I call an ambulance. He wanted to take me.

    Well, the ER did an immediate EKG, blood work, urinlysis, and I can't remember what other tests. The EKG said that I was not having a heart attack, however, the chest pains were still coming.

    I ended up in an ICU bed for 3 days so they could watch me.

    What they determined was that I was having "Cornary Artery Spasms". The cornary artery runs dowm the middle of your heart, I think, and when it kept going into spasms, I felt the chest pains and it caused all of the numbness.

    They gave me nitro and other meds to stop the spasms and chest pains.

    I have had only one spell like that since I got out of the hospital. That was last month, but it only lasted for 15 minutes, so I did not go to the hospital.

    I really don't know about yours. I am anxious to find out what your doc said. Make sure you let me know.

    (((Hugs)))
    Janet
  19. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    I went the next morn after the scary episode. My doc says all it was was a pinched nerve. I kind of thought pinched nerves dind't unpinch themselves overnight, because I had perfect range of motion when he made me move around during the joke of exam he gave me. I swear the man hates to examine me.

    He took my blood pressure, that was it! No stethoscope, never even listened to my heartbeat. My blood pressure was high for me at 121/?, I'm usually low. He blew everything off, said I was too young for heart problems and said the b/p was high because I was anxious.

    I'll have to tell my env. doc at my appt. in Sept. I'm sure she'll be more attentive and concerned about it. I'm fine since though, my energy is much better. Whatever it was for sure, I think the sodium ascorbate caused it. It isn't even a massive amount of salt as someone thought, it just vit. C buffered w/ sodium.


    Jeanne
  20. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    that it can happen 4 times/minute and be normal. that's all he said my episode was, not a real palpitation, but just a skpped beat that overcompensates and beats much harder after.

    That's not normal for me. The only times it ever happened is when I had fullblown, bedridden CFS. And i was dangerously ill back then. BP was as low as 80/30, it was serious.


    Jeanne