Fibromyalgia and fluoride toxicity

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by mbofov, Sep 17, 2009.

  1. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    Here's an article I came across today. I don't know if it is part of the answer to the riddle of FM, but is definitely food for thought:

    If fluoride toxicity is involved in FM, there are things that can be done, including supplementing with the proper form of iodine, which is another subject.

  2. SnooZQ

    SnooZQ New Member

    Yes, fluoride was a biggie for me.

    EPA scientists KNOW that fluoride disrupts at least 50 different enzymes in the body. Thyroid enzymes, yes. But also MUSCLE enzymes -- and therein can lie the source of much fibro pain.

    While studies show that at least 11% of the US population is iodine deficient, there's a wide range of advice out there on the wisdom of taking large doses of iodine. The US RDA may be low at 150 mcg/day. But on the other end of the spectrum, we have Abram & Brownstein recommending people take 50 mg or 100 mg at a time. Even 13 mg/day as maintenance is almost 100X the RDA.

    Certainly people with known autoimmune thyroid problems (Hashi's and/or Graves) should research the risks involved with taking high-dose supplemental iodine.

    Tamarind (the sweet/sour fruit) is excellent for fluoride detox. Holistic vets use it when pets get fluoride poisoning. Research from India, where there's endemic fluorosis in areas of naturally high-fluoride water, shows that tamarind can even reduce fluoride level in bone.

    Many people are unaware that numerous Rx meds are fluoro-compounds.

    Best wishes.
  3. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    from March 2009 on the same subject: - lots of good information here
  4. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    I do know your strong (and deservedly so!) thoughts on this subject. I have to admit that I have been abysmally ignorant about the dangers of fluoride in our water and meds, etc., but am learning quickly -

    Am going to try to up my daily dose of iodine -

    Best wishes,

  5. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    That's very interesting information about India and tamarand and fluoride detox. Yes, there is controversy over optimal doses of iodine. Some argue that we do need higher doses and that it will help normalize thyroid function, whether hypo or hyper. We do know that the incidence of breast cancer has increased greatly since bromides replaced iodine in our bread some 30 years ago or so.

    It is very interesting that fluorides disrupt MUSCLE enzymes. This is new information to me. I don't have FM, no muscle pain, "only" CFS, but am hypothyroid (taking Armour).

    Obviously the more we learn the better!

    Best wishes,

  6. AuntTammie

    AuntTammie New Member

    at least concerning iodine and the thyroid, I have read that new evidence is showing that it is only effective if we have enough selenium in our bodies, too....unfortunately everything I have read has failed to give amts if one were to supplement with these
  7. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    There are different forms of fluoride. I can brush my teeth with toothpaste containing it but I really rinse well and don't swallow any. Still, I know some gets into my system. Fluorescene in eye drops used for eye exams, usually the yellow drops but not always, makes me really sick all day. I love my eye doc but he doesn't take it very seriously. I have to remind him every time not to use those drops. Four percent of the population at large is allergic to Fluorescene. They probably go home feeling sick after having their eyes examined and don't know why they feel lousy all day.

    With both my knee surgeries, my anesthetist ran over all the meds used and eliminated any which contain fluoride. Fluoride quickly crosses the blood/brain barrier and is used to deliver the anesthesia faster. These two surgeries were the only time I have awakened feeling great and not groggy, sick nor nauseated. I'm convinced that all the other times, it was the fluoride which made me so sick.

    I have a filter on my water and ice built into the fridge but don't know whether it gets rid of fluoride or not. Perhaps the fluoride in water doesn't bother my allergy as much. Fluoride is a drug and to have it forced on us through our water supply is outrageous. Speaking of which, we are receiving doses of all kinds of antibiotics in our water. The filtration treatment doesn't rid it from the urine of those taking them. Aack! I wonder what else gets by the treatment.

    Love, Mikie
  8. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    I don't know if my area is fluoridated, but will find out. I just never paid attention to this issue before. arghhhhh!!!!! crazy, crazy, crazy, like using mercury in dental fillings --

  9. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    Did you see this paragraph in the article referenced above?

    "R. Paul St. Amand - with EPA scientists focused on the brain and kidney damaging effects of fluoride, this leading fibromyalgia researcher discovered guaifenisen as a treatment for fibromyalgia (and all its related conditions) after observing that every case appeared to be linked to a dysfunction of the kidney tubules. In treating thousands of patients, St. Amand has effectively proven what the top expert in fluoride toxicity, Kaj Roholm, suggested long ago in his definitive reference guide "Fluorine Intoxication", which is that the kidneys lay at the root of nearly all the crippling symptoms, including the severe cognitive impairment termed "brain fog."

    I know the guaifenesen protocol helped you a lot - am wondering, especially since you are allergic to fluoride, whether flouride toxicity may have played a key role in your FM? I think you've said that a mycoplasma infection was at the root of it, but perhaps fluoride was an element in damaging your immune system?

    It would probably be hard to know for sure - St. Amand's name just caught my eye while reading the article -

  10. SnooZQ

    SnooZQ New Member

    Tamarind fruit seems to be native to Central/South America, as well as to India & Indonesia.

    I live in a small city & have found tamarind whole fruit at Hispanic markets, very reasonably priced. The Asian markets often have it also, conveniently packed like a block of dried dates. At my local HFS, I purchase canned tamarind puree for use in cooking. None of it is gonna set you back more than a couple bucks per pound.

    Best wishes.
  11. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    Sorry to be so late answering your post.

    It's almost impossible for me to know for sure just how big a role my allergy to fluoride has played in my illnesses. I have always believed we are genetically predisposted to our illnesses and that everything which stresses us, allergies, traumas, infections, etc., can put us in jeopardy of becoming very ill. I also accept the possibility that one of these stresses can alter us genetically to get sicker. It's a real chicken-and-egg question. I think this is at the root of what causes our illnesses and a host of other illnesses.

    Dr. St. Amand believes that those of us with FMS cannot tolerate salicylates because they use the tubules in the kidneys which would otherwise eliminate the phosphate debris our bodies make when producing energy in our mitochondria. This debris has nowhere to go except into the bloodstream to be deposited into our soft tissue. Dr. St. Amand believes this is what produces the tender spots in FMS. BTW, this debris is in crystaline form. This is a very shortened recap of his research and theory.

    I am very fortunate in that the Guai Protocol helped me tremendously with my FMS, allowing me to concentrate on treating my CFIDS which, for me, is the worse of the two conditions. Of course there is a lot of overlap in symptoms between the two illnesses. I didn't realize just how much the Klonopin also helped with eliminating pain until I tried to wean off of it. I guess my body needs it so I will continue with both the Guai and Klonopin.

    Some people can use no salicylates with the Guai. At the other end of the spectrum, there are people who benefit from the Guai while continuing to use sals. Most of us are somewhere in the middle. I can tolerate a few sals before they interfere with the Guai. I am so far reversed from where I started on the Guai Protocol that I can take something with sals for a bit before it really affects me. Still, I try to avoid them. Right now, I have a bad cold with chest congestion. I rubbed some menthol on my chest last night to help with breathing. Menthol is a big no-no on Guai but I know I can get away with it once in a while. The Guai, itself, helps break up mucus regardless of sals, so it is helping with that too. No matter how reversed I am, though, if I injure myself or get sick, the old tender spots can ache. They are like old injuries which never heal 100 percent.

    If anyone is trying the Guai Protocol, it is wise to completely eliminate all sals because one never knows how sensitive to the sals one is until well into the program. Many failures of the Guai Protocol can be traced to hidden sals.

    But, I digress... Back to your question--I believe any allergy causes stress on our immune systems which, in the case of our illnesses, don't work well. If our immune systems are busy dealing with allergens, we feel much worse.

    Hope this answers your question.

    Love, Mikie
  12. AllWXRider

    AllWXRider New Member

    I read from VRP that Lugol's Iodine (iodine and potassium iodide) is the best form as the body needs both. I've been using 4 drops/day and I'm now using 1/4 the Armour originally prescribed!

    I will add in tamarind and more selenium. Maybe I can get off thyroid meds all together!

    I have a RO under the sink. Water tastes great...and the teenagers drink it! Cost ~$300 and 4 hours to install. Bye bye metals, halides and volatile!

    I ran a small plastic line to the ice maker...delicious ICE! Had to crawl under the house to install it but OH was it worth it!!!
  13. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    Thanks for your reply. I do think it is a chicken-and-egg question. I wasn't even thinking specifically of your fluoride allergy, but more about fluoride toxicity itself, which can affect anyone, allergic or not. (although I know your fluoride allergy would definitely have exacerbated any problems with fluoride toxicity) It's just so interesting to me that the symptoms of fluroide toxicity match those of fibro so well.

    I think what I'm really wondering is if another way of going at the problem would be addressing fluroride toxicity itself (however one would do that, e.g., by iodine supplementation), getting rid of fluroide in the body and avoiding ingesting more of it. Perhaps a person could then tolerate sals better, or, rather, the kidneys would work better, and therefore not have the problem with sals? If the reason you have the problem with sals is fluoride toxicity which has damaged the kidneys?

    Part of that article I referenced above states: “In treating thousands of patients, St. Amand has effectively proven what the top expert in fluoride toxicity, Kaj Roholm, suggested long ago in his definitive reference guide "Fluorine Intoxication", which is that the kidneys lay at the root of nearly all the crippling symptoms, including the severe cognitive impairment termed "brain fog." This seems to be saying that “fluorine intoxication” impacts the kidneys, resulting in FM.

    Well, it would probably take some research to find this out. (but I'm not suggesting at all to stop the Guai protocol - I know how hard you worked at it and what good results you have had!)

    Best wishes,

  14. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    That's great you're having such good results with the Lugol's, and really impressive that you're down to 1/4 of the Armour you were taking! I was taking 2 drops a day of Lugol's, and recently switched to Iosol. Some believe the Iosol is better. I don't know, would have to do more research. But I think it's undisputed that we do need iodine supplementation, particularly since we generally do not consume a diet high in iodine.

    Good for you with the RO. I use a Britta filter which I know is wholly inadequte, does not filter fluorides and lots of other stuff. Will have to do more research on this too, but your RO does sound like a good investment.
  15. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    Yes, I did understand what you were getting at but my response certainly didn't demonstrate that :) I am battling a horrid cold right now and my head feels like a lead ball. Aack!

    Anyway, I agree that fighting any toxic problem in the body is part of the healing process. I worked with a woman who had mercury toxicity and her symptoms were just like FMS/CFIDS.

    I do avoid fluoride whenever and wherever I can. I use std. toothpaste and don't seem to have a problem with it. There are different kinds of fluoride and some of them will immediately make me sick. I might feel better if I found some toothpaste without the fluoride but what I had found in the past had mint and mint is another big no-no with the Guai.

    The kidneys may well turn out to be at the root of many of these kinds of illnesses. It's as though our bodies become easily overwhelmed with almost any kind of stress, including toxicity.

    There are sooooo many variables that it is difficult to eliminate things and add others and know for sure what is happening with us. I continue to heal but it's a very sloooooow process. So, I figure for now, whatever I'm doing is helping me.

    Thanks for this info; I really appreciate it. It isn't unusual for one researcher to find common ground with another when trying to unravel the complexities of our illnesses. I always find that gratifying because it seems to validate their work.

    Love, Mikie
  16. AllWXRider

    AllWXRider New Member

    but it seems like the best results are when all the avenues to health are addressed.

    Even in the Lyme Disease approach, Dr Burrascano MD says that Hormonal Dysfunction, Sleep, addressing co-infections and nutritional optimization must all be used together to increase the chance of recovery.

    It sounds like Dr. Teitelbaum's SHINE protocol Sleep + Hormonal balance + treat Infections + Nutrition + mild Exercise. The plus sign is very important.

    Getting rid of the fluoride, optimizing the iodine are just two steps. Will this solve anyone's ME? No, but it will help. I'll tell you that living life at 98.6°F is a whole lot better than when I was 95~96.

    I'm looking forward to when I can sing like James Brown "I FEEL GOOD!"

  17. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    Sorry about your cold - it sounds miserable! Just recently I was fighting a sinus bug, and started drinking lemon juice in water twice a day. Lemon juice, although an acid, helps our bodies become alkaline. Sickness thrives in an acidic environment, so drinking lemon juice may help you get well quicker.

    You're right, there are so many variables, it is difficult if not impossible to figure out exactly what is going on, what piece of the puzzle is doing what. It sometimes feels like being in Alice in Wonderland with these DD, with no rhyme or reason, so it is like seeing a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel when researchers agree.

    Best wishes,


  18. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    The SHINE protocol all sounds good, except for the mild exercise - I can't tolerate it due to CFIDS - I crash at the drop of a hat it seems. 20 minutes too long at the library can leave me bedridden the next day. But am trying to work that bit out with the methylation protocol - my crashes are getting lighter, but no less frequent.

    Yeah, there does not seem to be a magic bullet. Although I'm still wondering about fluoride - maybe initial poisoning caused whole cascade of problems which now must be resolved one by one?

    I'm looking forward to that James Brown day too!

  19. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    I'm taking 2 drops a day. The other day I took four drops, and seemed to get an extra burst of energy late in the day, so I cooked dinner and did the dishes. Unfortunately, it was enough to put me over the edge and I crashed the next day, so am back to two drops. I may gradually work up to 3. I need to find my thermometer! I have two of them, and don't know where either is. That would help.

  20. AllWXRider

    AllWXRider New Member

    Dr. Brownstein book (Iodine: why you need: why you can't live without it) says that Iodine can help Hashimoto. Iodine helps detox bromides (bread dough conditioner), fluorides and chlorides.

    The detox is often interpreted as a allergic reaction.

    Celtic Sea salt helps the detox reaction along too. sells an Iodine Loading test. Its the best way to know how much Iodine is ideal for you.

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