Finally: The cause of CFS AND treatment

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Fibrotears, Oct 7, 2006.

  1. Fibrotears

    Fibrotears New Member

    Hi, fellow sufferers!

    I have great news! I think I stumbled across something use.

    A month ago a local talk show (3Talk) on our SABC 3 channel address the topic CFS.
    They had an expert Dr. Jadin (a Belgium doctor now working here in South Africa)talk about CFS and her groundbreaking research and treatment for CFS.

    According to her CFS is caused by Rickettsia infection. There are numerous ways one can get Rickettsia of which one is to be bitten by a tick or flea.

    She test the patients blood with a special bloodtest that is only avaliable in South Africa an France. Usually the blood tests positive fir Rickettsia.

    She then prescribed a combination of Antibiotics for one week of every months over a period of 8 months or untill the Rickettsial infection is gone. Dr. Jadin success rate is very high.

    I'm waiting for my bloodtest result and really hope that it will show Rickettsia because it is treatable! This could mean the end of my extreme fatigue and many other symptoms.

    You should check it out in your countries but remember to tell your doctor that the usual test (Felix-Weill) for Rickettsia doesn't always show it out. The special bloodtest Dr. Jadin does must be done for an accurate diagnoses.

    I hope that you find this very helpfull.

    I will keep you posted on my bloodtest results and on how I'm doing on the treatment when i start it.

    Good luck to you!!

    Love, Fibrotears
  2. HppeandMe

    HppeandMe New Member

    What test does Dr. Jadin use?

    Can she order the test for the U.S. and then the blood can be shipped to her for diagnosis??

    Thanks for your information!
    Hope
  3. gypsy101

    gypsy101 New Member

    http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic2015.htm
  4. gypsy101

    gypsy101 New Member

    Just to be clear. All cfs is caused by this bug? Thankyou.
  5. gypsy101

    gypsy101 New Member

    I'm printing this to take to my dr. Anything else I need to show him????
  6. gypsy101

    gypsy101 New Member

    I re-read what you wrote. Can a person do this Marshall protocol on their own? Does it need major monitoring by a doc? I can see where my immune system is low... not strong. My life has made me weak and prone to illnesses. I've been sick a lot for the last four years since a very stressfull situation.
  7. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    Of the word, cause. There are other infections in PWC, like Lyme and mycoplasmas. These are also very difficult to rid the body of and require long-term use of antibiotics. Still, this is not a cure. I believe that no one can heal unless the chronic infections, and there can be many, are addressed, but ridding the body of the infections is not, in itself, a cure.

    PWC have been shown to have mutated genes in studies. No one knows whether infections can cuase genes to mutate or whether we are prone to infections of opportunity because of the mutations.

    I appreciate your info because the more theories and treatment options we have to consider, the better; however, we have yet to see anyone cured of CFIDS from treating chronic infections. Some may be cured from various treatment but there are no studies which show this to be the case as yet. If there are gene mutations, there can be remissions and illness management but no cure unless it deals with the defective genes. Still, getting rid of the infections is a tremendous step forward. Thing is that there are likely more than just one infection one has to deal with.

    I have made tremendous strides by attacking the chronic viral and mycoplasma infections I have but I'm not out of the woods yet. I have decided that the Marshall Protocol is too risky for me but there are others who seem to be doing well on it. Even if I can sustain a remission state, I will not consider myself cured until there is a proven cure.

    Love, Mikie
    [This Message was Edited on 10/08/2006]
  8. Granniluvsu

    Granniluvsu Well-Known Member

    Hi Fibrotears,

    It all sounds very interesting and hope that helps alot of us. However, where I come from I doubt if it was caused by fleas from an animal ( which I do not have)or ticks in the area we lived in at the time.

    Thanks for info though.

    Blessings,

    Marilyn (Granniluvsu)
  9. Lolalee

    Lolalee New Member

    Tagging for later reference. I'm seeing an Infectious Diseases Specialist.

    Lolalee
  10. mindbender

    mindbender New Member

    It seems to go along w/ my previous investigation

    Thank you,
    Dan
  11. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    I can see that you have a good grasp on the faulty logic which is often used to explain our illnesses. In the six years I've been here, I've seen dozens of posts where some expert or other claims to know "the cause" of our illnesses. If that were true, we would have a cure by now.

    It can be claimed that infections seem to trigger our illnesses in some individuals but I think that's about as far as anyone can go truthfully. A relationship may exist between certain infections and our illnesses but right now, that is only a theory.

    What I hate to see happen is for someone new to our illnesses think that there are easy answers. In most cases, there aren't. Every now and then, someone stumbles upon a treatment which brings on a remission. I am happy when that happens but it isn't typical of most of us.

    Fibrotears, please do not think we do not appreciate your posting this person's theory here for us to consider. We do. It's just that it doesn't stand the test, at least, in my mind, of being the cause of our illnesses. I would be interested in which ABX this doc prescribes.

    Love, Mikie
  12. ulala

    ulala New Member

    correct because my CFS started many years ago after I was bitten by about a hundred fleas. I moved into an apartment where someone had just moved out who had a dog. The carpet was shag! I had welts up and down my legs from hundreds of fleas bites on me. Soon after that the fatigue started and I had to leave California and go home because I was too tired to continue with school.

    Thanks for posting this!

    [This Message was Edited on 10/08/2006]
  13. ulala

    ulala New Member

    The Rickettsial and Para-Rickettsial Approach of CFS


    And Related Disorders



    CL Jadin MD


    Johannesburg South Africa



    Health is like a hot air balloon; it is sometimes necessary to get rid of some burdens


    Acknowledgments



    Thanks to my father, Prof. JB Jadin, and his Pasteurian colleagues, I have at my disposal an impressive collection of scientific literature.


    Thanks to the faith of my numerous patients, I have my illustrated pathology.


    Thanks to the stimulation from and support of my South African colleagues, I started my intensive research.


    Thanks to the patience of my husband, Dr. Patrick Gerin, the tolerance of my three children, Jean-Baptiste, Aurelie and Antoine, and the vigilance of my staff, in particular Janet Shepherd, Amanda Malcomess and Diane Starr.


    Thanks to the unlimited generosity of Meg Fox who tried to unravel the mysteries of the computer for me.


    Because of all of the above, I have been able to participate in International CFS World Congresses (Sydney 1998 and 1999, Brussels 1999 and the address to the University of Padua in 1999). This provided me with more insight into CFS-like diseases, and gave me the opportunity to present my clinical evidence in scientific publications.



    Copyright © Cécile L. Jadin 1999

    Private Bag X3 Suite 182,

    Northgate 2162

    Republic of South Africa


    The author has asserted her moral rights

    The Rickettsial and Para-Rickettsial Approach of CFS, Fibromyalgia, Rheumatic Arthritis, Neurological and Psychological Dysfunction


    “ Ceux auquels nous devons rendre compte de nos travaux, la societé, ne nous demandent pas tant de tracer des aperçus genéraux que de trouver quelque chose qui soit pratique pour le diagnostique, la prévention et le traitement des maladies”.

    Charles Nicolle


    preface


    Germs on earth are fighting to subsist. We only realise their existence when they enter our lives. To achieve this, like surfers, they take the first wave they can. One wins a thousand dies. Diseases appear and disappear throughout the centuries, producing new variations and mutations of themselves not new species. Here comes a new name for an old disease.

    introduction


    The author, Cécile Jadin, is originally from Belgium, but has been practising in South Africa since 1981. She is a surgeon by profession. In South Africa, in addition to practising as a surgeon, she also assisted her husband in his general practice. For the last 8 years, she has focused on patients presenting with CFS-like symptoms.


    This paper presents a summary of her clinical experience linked to her scientific research.


    To understand why she took the Rickettsial approach, her background needs to be explained. Her father was Professor JB Jadin, who undertook groundbreaking research on tropical diseases, among them Rickettsial infection, with Professor Paul Giroud in Central Africa, South Africa, the Near East, and in Europe, developing the work started in the Pasteur Institute of Tunis, with Professor Charles Nicolle, who was a disciple of Louis Pasteur. Thus she was familiar with those germs from an early age and her work represents the results of teamwork through the last 100 years.


    At the end of 1987, one of her friends became unable to walk and was diagnosed as having CFS. For 4 years Dr. Jadin suggested the diagnosis of Rickettsial Infection, and therefore the Weil-Felix test, the only one then available in South Africa for diagnosis of Rickettsia was performed several times, but the results were negative. The friend developed an acute appendicitis that needed surgery. Afterwards, her serum was sent to Prof. JB Jadin in Belgium to test for Rickettsiae, and the result was positive. Dr. Jadin treated her with Tetracyclines and 3 weeks later she was riding her horse again. Thus Dr. Jadin started to focus on the Rickettsial approach.




    Research


    Research on Rickettsioses was originally developed by French, Polish and Russian scientists. They followed Charles Nicolle's (Pasteur Institute, winner of the Nobel Prize for medicine in 1933) hypothesis, which is that occult diseases are a reality and their cohabitation in the same host will lead to the bankruptcy of the immune system. By occult disease Charles Nicolle implies the asymptomatic stage of the disease, where the agent is present in the host, but dormant. The emergence of a virus, bacteria, parasite, stress or pollution can activate this agent, which leads to the symptomatic stage.


    An example of this cohabitation is the infant mortality rate described by J.B. Jadin in Central Africa. Neonates diagnosed with malaria and Coxiella Burnetti all died as opposed to those with malaria only.


    The numerous publications of these authors are unfortunately all in French, so their circulation was limited. They also, as academics, excluded the media. Therefore the real importance of their discovery is still to be made widely known.


    rickettsial diseases


    Rickettsial infection was discovered in 1909, when Ricketts saw and described the germ that causes Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever (R M S F) in man. Ricketts, as well as another scientist, Prowazek, contracted Typhus and died.

    The epidemic forms of Rickettsiae were described by Zinsser in his classic book “Rats, Lice and History”, in which he contends that soldiers have rarely won wars. Typhus and other infectious diseases have decided the outcome of more military campaigns than Caesar, Hannibal, Napoleon and all generals in history. Depending on the outcome for each warring faction, either the epidemics were blamed for defeat, or the generals were credited with victory. It has contaminated an estimated 25 million Russians, causing 3 million deaths during the 1st World War.


    Nowadays, following on from these historical memories, there are forms less virulent, evolving slowly, but able to induce vascular and neurological pathologies.


    Rickettsiae are found in ticks, lice, fleas, mites, meat, milk, stools and dust. From the entry into the skin, the lungs, conjunctives, and the digestive mucosa, Rickettsiae spread via the bloodstream to infect vascular endothelium. These organisms grow and multiply by binary fission in and only in the cytoplasm of the host cell until the number of Rickettsiae is so great that the cell bursts, releasing hundreds of them. This invasion will impair or paralyse the vascular function, acting like a sponge between blood and organs and this vascular sponge will be the cause of memory loss, and/or muscular weakness and pain, and/or palpitations, and/or ulcers, depending on its localisation. These organisms will enlarge the endothelial cells of small vessels with partial or complete occlusion of the vascular lumen. They are known for long survival in various organs and lymphatic tissue.


    According to which vessel they invade, they might display a constellation of symptoms; amazingly similar to those presented by the CFS group of patients that may be the origin of a flock of diseases such as:


    CFS, Fibromyalgia, where they cause a cellular Anoxemia.
    Cardio-vascular diseases, (valve replacements, infarctus, high blood pressure).
    Neurological diseases (from acute encephalitis to Multiple Sclerosis (MS), epilepsy etc).
    Abdominal diseases (appendicitis, cœliac disease and others).
    Ocular diseases (uveitis, retinal angiopathy, optic nevritis sometimes a long time after a general infection).
    Auto-Immune diseases (such as Rheumatoid Arthritis, Psoriatic Arthritis, Lupus, Sclerodermia, Sjögren Disease).


    Some patients will present, simultaneously, or one after the other, many diseases. For example, it is common to see the following association: Rheumatoid Arthritis and Depression; Ocular Disease and heart attacks; Appendicitis and CFS; Hashimoto Disease and high blood pressure. Upon closer scrutiny, it is the same germ causing damage to different organs, either together or consecutively. Alternatively, one patient suffering from ME might develop MS, and one patient presenting with MS, has a greater chance of dying of a heart attack, if not treated. They are different stages of the same disease.


    Rickettsiae release into the bloodstream 3 types of endotoxins, which have different effects. All or some of these endotoxins may produce symptoms. First, endocytokines that will cause inflammation and pain; second, neurocytokines that would be the origin of neurological symptoms such as demyelinisation found in MS patients, and psychological symptoms, such as depression, anxiety, troubled behaviour, sometime even causing attempted suicide and third, allergens producing allergies.


    Rickettsiae are resistant to humidity and to dryness, will stay virulent for:


    60 days in milk
    4 months in sand
    6 months in meat
    7 - 9 months in cotton.


    They are spread by rodents and birds. Through the centuries, bird migration has been responsible for changing the geographical distribution of disease - but this is nothing compared to the effect of the explosion of these diseases due to the cocktail effect created by distribution through global air traffic.

    Equally the transport of insects compared to the import and export of livestock - as in the case of the importation of 10,000 parrots from Paraguay to Belgium when some 2,000 died, leaving the virus well and alive behind them, (identified by JB Jadin as Neo-Rickettsia Bedsonia).


    This world distribution does not include Antarctica, where they do not survive.


    Fish also share this disease, as Paul Giroud described in 1962, the presence of Rickettsia Pisci; as Erlichia Rickettsi is, according to breeders, a common problem: their advice is for each change of season to treat fishponds with Aquatetra powder (Tetracycline powder manufactured by Aquavet) to prevent this disease. This highlights the fluctuation of virulence of Rickettsiae, according to the seasons. What is called ‘The October Suicide’ in Africa could be part of the same phenomenon.


    Deltreil has reported their presence in oysters, which are commonly eaten raw, and therefore could present a risk of contamination.


    The majority of patients in our clinic report a flu-like infection, with often an elevated temperature and severe headaches. This lasts for a few days, disappears or reoccurs, and then leaves them with a chronic condition of CFS, Fibromyalgia etc. as mentioned above.

    diagnosis


    Diagnosis of Chronic RickettsiaI Infection (CRI) is established on 3 cornerstones:


    Patients' symptoms


    Tiredness

    Headaches, retro-orbital and temporal, worst after prolonged horizontal position or mental effort

    Myalgia (muscular pain)

    Arthralgia migrating (arthritic pain)

    Loss of balance

    Vision abnormalities

    Raynaud syndrome (cold, painful, often blue extremities, known in South Africa as “Winter hands or feet”)

    Nausea

    Recurrent sore throat

    Memory and concentration deficit

    Chest pain, palpitations

    Sweats, low grade fever

    Bruising

    Psychological and neurological disorders


    The Physical Examination often shows:
    An inflamed throat
    The glands enlarged and painful
    Heart abnormalities (vascular and valvular impact)
    Right Iliac Fossa tenderness (chlamydiae 18 in appendix)


    The Biological Cornerstone allows us a more specific diagnosis and also helps us to eliminate other diseases as a cause (diabetes, cancer etc). The following checklist has been established over the years in our clinic, finding its best definition with the help of the large number of patients, their various pathologies and the treatment’s success on those abnormalities.


    This success is demonstrable, not only by the recovered patients feeling well, but by the improvement shown in their blood.


    Nevertheless, as time passes, our checklist is subject to modification, in view of improved results.


    At this stage we can divide our biological approach into 3 categories:

    Infections: Rickettsia and Para-Rickettsia organisms such as
    - Mycoplasma and Chlamydiae

    - Bilharzia

    - Brucella

    - Toxoplasmoses


    For Rickettsial diseases we use the Micro-Agglutination test of Giroud-Jadin against these following five strains:


    - R. Prowazeki: the epidemic type of Typhus

    - R. Mooseri, which is endemic

    - R. Conori, which belongs to the spotted fever group

    - Coxiella Burnetti, which is well known as Q Fever. It has 2 phases; Phase II is pathogenic

    - Neo Rickettsia Chlamydiae Q18 which falls into the Neo-Rickettsia group.


    The Antigens of those Rickettsiae are directly collected from the bowels of infected ticks and other arthropods, then mixed in a solution, injected into the peritoneal cavity of guinea pigs, mice, hamsters, rabbits or embryonated eggs to be cultivated.



    Before releasing for testing, the solution is attenuated with formol.


    Important Points:
    A high reading means a high serological level of antibodies - a negative reading in endemic areas reflects the poverty of the immune system.
    Agglutination happens or does not - therefore there is no possibility of personal interpretation. Test quality depends on Antigen quality.
    Quality controls are done with:


    - Negative sera

    - Pure Antigens, regularly checked to ensure the absence of Auto-Agglutination


    Variation of the curve of Antibodies in time reveals the presence of active focii.

    If doubtful or negative, in the presence significant symptomatology, the test should be repeated to follow the Antibodies’ curve


    Tests can give a negative reading if patients are treated with cortisone


    Positive tests can be found in people who display no symptoms (Giroud, Jadin; 26% according to Drancourt)


    Comparative studies with the Immunofluorescence test and the ELISA test performed by Prof. Jadin and a French Laboratory gave very similar results (NB: The BRUMPT prize of the Pasteur Institute of Paris was awarded to Prof. JB Jadin for this test in October 1997)


    The test is currently done upon request in the MATG laboratory in Johannesburg, South Africa; currently for doctors in France, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Australia, South Africa and Zimbabwe



    However, the Micro-Agglutination test of Giroud is not our only tool to establish the diagnosis of Rickettsial infections. We find the following blood tests most relevant:


    LFT: the hepatotoxicity of Rickettsiae has been reported as early as 1937 by Derrick in Q Fever, followed by many others - Giroud, Lenette, Le Gag, Brezina, Perron, Kelly, Raoult, etc. In these cases, Tetracyclines are improving or normalising liver function.


    Iron study (50% of abnormalities corrected with Tetracyclines only and when necessary with a short course of iron supplement).


    Thyroid AB rather than TFT, although the TFT show abnormalities in 3% of patients, the thyroid AB are elevated in 28% of cases and improve or normalise rapidly with treatment,


    CRP, RF, ANF, WR was positive in 53% of patients, and also improved with treatment and often normalised.


    Mycoplasma and Chlamydiae, first classified as Rickettsiae, are now considered to be independent entities.
    The damage produced by those germs in our bodies:


    Elevated sedimentation rate
    Low white cell count
    Iron deficiency or iron increased
    Abnormal liver function test
    Abnormal Thyroid Function test


    The Abnormalities of the Auto-immune factors produced by those intra-cellular organisms, such as:


    Thyroid Antibodies
    Rheumatoid Factor
    C. Reactive protein
    Antinuclear Factor



    After establishing these 3 cornerstones treatment is administered:

    treatment


    The treatment consists of 7 to 12 days per month of a specific Tetracycline. The monthly treatment aims to follow the Rickettsial development in the cell.


    A high dosage is required with the limitation of:


    Safety.
    Goodman et al highlights irreversible hepatotoxicity in intravenous administration only. Our experience was that when liver functions were normal to start with, they stay normal. If they were abnormal, they will improve during treatment and generally return to normal. Cases of fatty acid depots (as shown by liver scan, before and after 6 months to 1 year of treatment) have disappeared (1 MS, 4 CFS). This confirms the fact that Rickettsiae are more hepatotoxic than Tetracyclines.


    Tolerance.


    The gastric intolerance will be successfully prevented by using a gastric pump inhibitor during and if necessary before and after the administration of the Tetracyclines.
    The tolerance of the treatment is directly related to the Herxheimer reaction (HR), which is a reactivation of old symptoms and/or exacerbation of present symptoms that occurs on antibiotherapy. Its presence has a very important diagnosis and prognosis value. They might or might not be parallel to a serological reactivation. It will fade with the number of treatments received. When very severe, the HR is treated with Probenecid.
    The Tetracyclines are alternated because:


    A patient is frequently contaminated by many strains of Rickettsiae and different Rickettsiae have different sensitivity to different Tetracyclines or combinations.
    A patient might build resistance to each Tetracycline.
    Patients show individual sensitivity to different Tetracyclines or combinations and there is very often a privileged reaction to a specific treatment.
    The Tetracyclines are combined with Quinolones, Macrolides or Metronidazole, because Rickettsiae present a wide heterogenicity of susceptibility to different drugs.


    The treatment is often long due to:


    The chronicity of the germ
    The multiple foci of Rickettsiae
    The fact that Rickettsiae have a slow evolution and some foci are dormant, encapsulated and therefore protected from antibiotherapy. Only when they become active can they be treated.
    Each treatment will allow the immune system to produce and maintain a proper and efficient level of antibodies. This happens each time the antigen Rickettsiae are released from the cell to the blood stream while on antibiotherapy (Legag).
    The length of the disease should logically imply a lengthy treatment. In our experience, this point is not always true. Patients, ill for many years, may recover after a few months treatment.


    Antimalaria has been found efficient to improve rheumatoid symptoms and rheumatoid biological findings.


    Adjuvants such as Vitamin B complex and acidobacillus are also used.


    Cortisone is avoided as much as possible as it is known to weaken the Immune System in general and also to reactivate the disease in experiments on guinea pigs. Cortisone has been accused of interfering with the diagnosis of Rickettsia by masking the antibody level.


    Chlamydiae have been isolated in the cerebrospinal fluid of MS patients (Le Gag, Jadin, 1962, 1986, Sriram, Mitchell 1998) and also in cardiac valves (Shor in RSA, 1992).


    Equally Rickettsiae have been isolated from Mitral and Aortic valves (Grist in Glasgow, 1963, Drancourt in 1990) and are known to cause Endocarditis and Myocarditis.


    Therefore the use of cortisone depressing immune reaction should be restricted before infectious investigation.

    Exercise is recommended, for the following 3 reasons:


    Rickettsiae is a vascular disease and exercise, properly done, will improve the smooth peri-vascular muscle function, as well as develop our biggest muscle, the heart.
    The fact that strains of Rickettsiae grow better in vitro when maintained in a CO2 enriched atmosphere.
    The suggestion that Rickettsiae grow best when the metabolism of the host cell is low.


    Hot baths are important to eliminate toxins via the skin, produced by Rickettsiae antigens when liberated in the bloodstream by antibiotherapy.


    Regular intake of Multivitamins may be dangerous if we consider the following points:


    Germs and their hosts are forming an Eco-system. This is the most complex level of organisation in Nature, depending on climate, water, nutrients, and energy.


    Due to the gap in our knowledge concerning basic parasite-host interaction, administration of nutritional supplements and diet are a hazardous guess, since it might support the parasite rather than the host (for example: magnesium, glutamate, pyruvate are the principle energy-yielding substrate of Rickettsiae, ethanol kills Rickettsiae in vitro, folic acid supports some leukaemia cells).


    Reinfection may obviously occur. Reactivation (called so rather than relapse) may also happen due to the interaction of bacteria, virus, stress, pollution, etc. causing the Rickettsiae forms' to change to active from dormant.
    Measurement of Progress


    Patients are seen monthly to judge progress on:

    Symptoms
    Activity increase (From bedridden to back to exercise or back to work)
    From being treated by painkillers, antidepressants, sedatives, cortisone to none
    Medical examination
    Biological investigation: from having:


    LFT abnormal
    RF raised
    CRP raised
    ANF raised

    KFT raised
    Thyroid antibodies raised

    Iron abnormal


    back to normal, or nearly so

    Based on this assessment, the treatment is prolonged or stopped (3 months to 2 years: 8 months on average). However, as previously mentioned, the length of treatment is not directly correlated to the length of illness:


    Therefore patients can be divided into 2 categories:


    1. Fast progress - their illness was mainly Rickettsia

    2. Slow progress - their illness was Rickettsia plus other factors.

    conclusion


    Apart from the radical changes wrought in most of the patients individually, I also would like to appeal for the recognition of CFS as a real disease and to emphasise the role Rickettsial infection plays in this multi-factorial situation. The importance of this role lies in the direct availability of diagnosis and treatment for Rickettsia (unlike viruses, which cannot yet be controlled by medication). The huge socio-economical problem created by this disease could be solved if it were recognised by insurance companies, and diagnosed and treated by medical doctors, as soon as the first symptoms appear.


    Furthermore, In the presence of CFS, Fibromyalgia, Auto-immune diseases, Heart diseases, MS, Depression, the screening for Rickettsial-like infections might be a valuable tool for treatment. Even Systematic Giemsa or Machiavello stain of removed tissue (appendix, valves, tonsils, placenta of aborted foetus) as done for heartwater disease in cattle brains could improve diagnosis.

    [This Message was Edited on 10/08/2006]
  14. wkirk87

    wkirk87 New Member

    **** this thread kicks ***!!!!!

    This is so awesome!!!

    Yeah, I agree that it pisses the living **** out of me whenever some new dumb*** comes and publicly says they have a cure for CFS and it turns out to be something stupid as **** like 'get over it' or 'take some vitamin C' (or you know what I mean), but on the other hand...

    Consider how much of a "diagnosis" CFS really is. They only "diagnose" us with CFS by simply ruling out everything else. For all we know CFS is four or five different illnesses grouped together in this big category called CFS. Consider how about 25 years ago (I don't the exact date) they didn't know **** about FM and it was under the umbrella of CFS as well - that's what this whole Rickettsia breakthrough could be. A cure, or partial cure, or just a better understanding of the cause of something, for some of us.

    Either way, yay!!!
  15. victoria

    victoria New Member

    so far there's been no one magic bullet for CF/FM... and/but you know what, there's no magic bullet either for Lyme sadly... and many other infections.

    And/But I really do believe that most -- if not all of -- us have more than one type of viral and/or bacterial infections.

    What ones exactly each of us have, and how to test when the reliability of the tests for all these stealth pathogens are pretty poor, is the multi-million $$ question.

    And is why even the CDC says that doctors should not rely totally on blood tests but treat according to the 'clinical picture'. Why more doctors don't pay attention to that, I don't know.

    I am doing the Marshall Protocol, altho I've had a hiatus on it due to "life' getting in the way... & for me, the beauty of it is that it didn't matter which pathogen(s) I have, or not. And/But sadly, as Mikie pointed out, not everyone is able to follow it depending on their state of health at the time and constellation of problems and symptoms.

    And/But, Marshall doesn't say the MP (Marshall Protocol) will 'cure' anything - he feels it only puts ithe infection(s) into 'remission' - big difference in my humble opinion.

    Same is true for the abx long term treatment for chronic lyme; the LLMDs are believing more and more that if you've had it for a long time, it is doubtful it ever goes away. One probably has to pulse abx yearly or as needed... as Mikie has done for mycoplasma, as an example.

    Still, I think it helps psychologically if one can get tested and find any positives for any of these bugs, if possible. Sure helped my son to get out of denial that there was anything wrong with him! (He has chronic Lyme, according to CDC standards even.)

    all the best,
    Victoria



    [This Message was Edited on 10/08/2006]
  16. ulala

    ulala New Member

    Hopefully you will get some good information and testing. Let us know what your doctor says.

    Best wishes!
  17. lcb212

    lcb212 New Member


    The website for Dr. Jardin is: [web site address removed as per rules]
    she published a book in 2002 on cfs.

    the clinic in aus. is : [web site address removed as per rules]
    they offer testing
    I found these on my fav. search engine called
    dogpile.com (google and a lot more)

    thank you so much for bringing this to my attention
    I believe there is an answer, whether this is it I dont know. but it beats anything else I've read about!
    We can treat symptoms till the cows come home but that
    for me is not what I am looking for, I need to know the cause,also rickettsial is not the same as lyme.
  18. victoria

    victoria New Member

    just saying it seems like so many of these pathogens are difficult to kill for one reason or another, whether it be different variations and/or they are pleomorphic...

    best,
    Victoria

  19. elliespad

    elliespad Member

    "This world distribution does not include Antarctica, where they do not survive"

    If that is true, and IF Rickettsia DOES cause most/all CFS, then there would be almost no incidence of CFS in Antarctica.

    And that IS a possibility. Anyone know the incidence of CFS in Antarctica?
  20. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    Relating to this pathogen is also true of mycoplasmas and Lyme. Sixty to seventy percent of people with Gulf War Illness, CFIDS and FMS test positive for mycoplasma infections. The treatment is long-term antibiotics. No one can claim that mycoplasma infections cause these illnesses but there does appear to be a relationship.

    I am often amazed that scientists will claim a cause and effect when they find a common pathogen. The most that can scientifically be said is that there appears to be a relationship.

    People who are sick are desperate to find "the cause" and "the cure." Unfortunately, our illnesses do not seem to be that simple to unravel. As Victoria pointed out, our illnesses may turn out to be very complicated.

    Even when mycoplasmas are under control, we remain ill but improved. I do believe we have to address our chronic infections or we will not heal but I also believe healing our infections will not cure us. Studies have identified mutated genes in PWC. Scientists cannot even say that this is "the cause" of our illnesses. It could be one or more infections which caused the mutations, or exposure to a toxic substance. On the other hand, the mutated genes may make us more suseptible to environmental toxins and/or pathogens. Right now, it's the classic "chicken and egg" question.

    These things aren't simple. The more one researches possible causes and relationships, the more questions one has and the more one realizes how complex our illnesses are.

    It is easy to read an article and say, "Yes, that's what happened to me," and believe that is the answer. Unfortunately, it just isn't that simple and one can set oneself up for disappointment. It's understandable when sick people see a possible cause and effect instead of a possible relationship but those claiming to be scientists should not be doing this until it is shown through scientific studies to be the case.

    One of the reasons that the search for a cure for cancer has been so disappointing is because researchers were looking for "the cause." They now know it just isn't that simple. I believe the same applies to our illnesses and we may be waiting a long time and finding that there is no one cause.

    If we have chronic infections, they must be treated or we will continue to get sicker. Whether any one of these pathogens turns out to the "the cause" of our illnesses remains to be seen. As I said earlier, it is good to know what infections are being researched but we also need to keep a logical viewpoint when reading the researchers' conclusions.

    Love, Mikie