FM experts - is this valid FM symptom?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by CelticLadee, Jul 9, 2003.

  1. CelticLadee

    CelticLadee New Member

    I just had my yearly physical with my GP. First I gave her all my information showing her why I should be diagnosed with CFIDS. Then I told her when I sleep on my left side too long my shoulder gets sore and achy. The next night I try to sleep on my right side to give the left side a break so then my right hip gets sore and achy. So then the third night I try to sleep on my back and my shoulder blades or my neck gets sore and achy.

    She said this is FM trigger points and she wanted to prescribe anti-depressants for me. I reminded her that when she did the trigger points test last year I didn't have them but she basically set that aside as not important & didn't retest.

    My question - she seems willing enough to put me in the FM box but she totally ignores CFIDS as if it is FM. My symptoms fit in the Canadian definition of ME perfectly. What gives? I thought that CFIDS makes you have migrating sore achiness without the trigger points. Is what I described when sleeping considered FM trigger points?

    Thanks in advance for your input.


  2. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    So, I cannot answer that with any degree of knowledge..and I just seem to be developing the pain of Fibro in the last year..I have, always, considered myself to primarily be a CFIDS patient..

    Do you have the symptom of swollen feet or when you walk on them, this is the feeling you have (this has developed form me in the last year)? When I sleep, I can only sleep, now, in a recliner, or I will have a backache, the next, I am having aching from sleep, too..but not as bad in a slightly upright position as in the recliner..

    I wonder, from what you said, whether your doc "believes in CFS" as she seems to be ready to diagnose you with the FIBRO, but not with the CFS..Has she seen the Canadian definition of CFS?

  3. ssMarilyn

    ssMarilyn New Member

    Anti-depressants are to be prescribed as a last resort for clinical depression. Nowadays docs hand them out like candy!

  4. JQP

    JQP New Member

    Years ago after a disasterous op that went drastically wrong, and many months of hell later I was on: anti-inflammatories, anti-biotics, anti-depressants, and painkillers. After being told I could stay on them for the rest of my life if necessary, I wished the young male doctor early prostate trouble (they had damaged my bladder and I am still 8 years later having problems) and promptly took myself of all the meds!!!!

    Well, call me an idiot, within 7 days I was a wreck physically and mentally. But from this I made a decision that with the meds I had a quality of life that I really did not have without them. So I took responsibility for myself, went back to them and over the years have been on and off them. Dfferent ones at different times.

    Coping with chronic pain causing our depression, it is a major component to some of our DD. It is not shameful to admit. I tell others I know how to cope with my hell, but I couldn't live theirs...which in effect means they don't live mine.

    We take meds for everything else that hurts, or doesn't work probably, so why not the little grey cells that our body can't function without.

    Much love
  5. starstella

    starstella New Member

    Hi. I have FM, not CFIDS, so my response is from an FMer's frame of experience only. I'm not an expert but this is my understanding of a sometimes confusing subject. The tender spots are the specific areas that are tested for FM diagnosis. Those are the areas depicted on body models, frequently they use the three graces figures. Trigger points develop in the muscles either from overuse of a muscle or from cellular debris that collects in the area. Tender points are always there, the pain of those can vary. Trigger points can multiply if the causative factor is untreated. They can also be reduced by massage, trigger point therapy (direct pressure on the trigger point to break it down, or by use of guaifenisin. I don't have much experience with guaifenisin, others on the site can tell you lots.
    I suspect your doc offered the antidepressants to help you sleep. That seems to be the first drug that is tried. A lower dose than that what would be given someone with actual depression is prescribed. Personally, I don't agree with that approach because antidepresants have various unpleasant side effects. However, there are many people who have been helped by an antidepressant at bedtime. The sleep issue is important because muscle pain will increase without the restorative benefits of good sleep.
    Hope this was some help. Lots of people on this site have good information which they can share with you.
  6. Annette2

    Annette2 New Member

    One of the problems with FMS is that seratonin is depleted. Many docs give antidepressants to raise the seratonin levels. You don't have to necessarily be "depressed" to take the antidepressants. Also, I think FMS and CFS are almost one and the same now. As long as you're getting proper treatment it doesn't matter what label you have. I was diagnosed with FMS but a few months ago my doctor said I probably have chronic fatigue too. You can get the same symptoms with both.

  7. shell

    shell New Member

    In the beginning... I too had problems behind right and left shuolder blades... either from my purse or laying on my sides. The pain did migrate... I did get a different sort of 'sore' spot though in the trigger point areas... not as bad as the migrating pain and soreness but tight and sore. This moved down into my hips and at first I thought I had FM for sure. Now I am not so sure because I have been sick after that off and on every month and even before I knew I was sick I tested high to antibodies for mono and pneumonia. I now think I may have CFS/ FM but still need diagnosed. You do sound like you could have either at this point...
  8. CelticLadee

    CelticLadee New Member

    That is an interesting concept.
    First of all I want to thank each of you for your input.
    This is all so confusing. Just when I think I'm catching
    on then something new comes along to make me rethink it all.

    Plantscaper - Interesting that you are having the aches from sleep too. No fun. My feet are okay but do swell if
    the temperature gets close to 90 degrees. Yes, I did give
    my GP a copy of the Canadian definition of ME/CFIDS as well
    as the 59 page article by Dr.Cheney. She took everything I
    brought to read and noted I use this website. I have no idea
    where she will go with all the info. I gave her.

    achybrakey - I didn't mention my symptoms in this post but
    yes I have all them listed in the Canadian definition which
    includes fatigue & sleep disorders. My GP told me the
    anti-depressants were to help me sleep which would help with
    the aching because they would change my brain chemicals.
    I am very leary of taking drugs of any kind so I told her
    no for now.

    ssmarilyn - LOL. You sound just like my hubby - basically
    he had the same response. Too many docs think everyone is
    depressed causing illness so give them anti-depressants.
    But read jellybelly's input. My GP is probably more like
    a pretty good doc than a quack.

    jacqui - You know... I wouldn't feel so cautious about
    taking an anti-depressant if I was really miserable and
    desperate. Then it would be worth the side effects. I'm
    just not ready for that scene yet but if I start hurting
    worse I will definitely take your advise.

    starstella - Very interesting lesson on tender spots vs.
    trigger points. I definitely have both but the trigger
    points have reared back up after being dormant for a few
    month. I was doing everything right then. Now with a new
    puppy in the house I am up at weird hours and over doing it
    to catch up on my work to make up for lost hours being pom mom first. She is just like a new baby & I just love her. But anyway...this is causing increasing symptoms.

    Annette2 & jellybelly - What you shared makes sense and does
    shed light on my GP's response. Why didn't she just spell it
    out I don't know? I don't think she thoroughly understands
    the DD because she wants me to stop unnecessay supplements
    and stop my N.D.'s treatment plan for ridding yeast/fungi
    using nystatin and oil of oregano. She didn't seem interest-
    ed in checking out my thyroid T3 & T4 but I gave her a paper
    on it anyway. She didn't seem interested in doing the ISAC?
    panel for hypocoagulation. I gave her David Berg's article.
    She asked me who he was? (Sorry. I don't know) but I copied
    the article from here for her. Basically she says the proper
    treatment is the anti-depressant and exercise. I told her
    I am not willing to give up the DHEA/Pregnonolene for my
    adrenal glands or ZMA for sleep or mag. glycinate or GABA &
    L-theanine. She especially wanted me to stop extract like
    grape seed, OLE, IGA, etc. My liver count is slightily
    elevated (48) so the GP & ND are keeping tabs on it. So I
    gave her Sujay's address and told her to consult with her. I didn't get the impression that she would do that though.

    shell - I guess I need to read up on FM now. My focus has been CFIDS for the past year. I appreciate your help.

    jelly belly - I saw your post CFS/FM are they the same illness? and made a copy. I will go read it and begin my new lessons. LOL.

    You are a terrific bunch to take the time to help me out.
    Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

    [This Message was Edited on 07/10/2003]
  9. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    ELAVIL AND SINEQUAN, Tricyclic Antidepressants (Doxepin- generic name) enhance Stage IV Sleep...I have used Doxepin for a long time..and it is also suppose to be a very powerful antihistamine...not just for depression and probably not effective for situational depression as in our DDs...I think these are better for us over the SSRIs...
  10. Therrell

    Therrell New Member

    Once again I'm not a doctor but I'll tell you what my doctor explained to me. When you do just normal work in he daytime we do damage to our muscles. Normal people do the same thing except for one thing.When you are in stage 4 sleep you brain releases an amino acid that helps to repair the muscles. In FM patients, it doesn't work exactly right. So when we wake in the mornings our muscles are sore. The whole point of taking an anti depressant is to also take another type of antidepressant, as Elavil, which is in a different catagory as the Effexor,Zolof, Wellbutrin, Paxil, Prozac, etc. With out both of these together it doesn't help the pain. Not to say that we don't need the antidepressant(anyone with pain could in my opinion be depressed. But to give you only the antidepressant I think she is missing the boat. the combination of these 2 drugs help with the pain. I think that there are people who have Fibro and don't have CFID and there are plenty of people who have FM that don't have trigger points. The tender points arm not neccesaryly trigger points. You can feel Trigger Points. They feel like grisal. The trigger points when pressed refer pain to other places. a trigger point injection is usually Procaine or Lidocaine and saline (sometimes a little cortizone) that are to give you temporary relief. I have had a multitude of trigger point injections. Some times the needle bends because the trigger point is tightening. I have had the doc. put the needle in and whitout pushing to put in the medicine the trigger point would pull the medicine out of the syringe on it's own.The thought behind this is that if they can break the cycle of the TP. it will get better.Sometimes the muscle had spasmed and the trigger point would make it more dificult to remove the needle. A gentle maddage terapist can help, but don't let them give you a deep tissue message. The next day you wont be able to move. I'm sorry for taking up so much space but I was diagnosed in 93, and I have done nothing else but read on Fibromyalgia. If this doesn't make sense just email me back and ewe will discuss it further Sorry I took so long. Please don't vote me out of the club!!!!
  11. CelticLadee

    CelticLadee New Member

    Good morning,
    Good information. Thank each of you.

    plantscaper - That is worthwhile information...I will file it for my back up plan for when needed. My puppy woke me at midnight and kept me awake until 2 am. last night. My achy sore spots became much worse. I took a third ZMA and was amazed when I felt it soothing my pain then made me groggy and I slept until 6 am. I am sore everywhere today but I feel more rested then most mornings lately. If I get worse I will ask my GP for doxepin. I appreciate that tip very much. It is comforting to have a back up plan!

    therrell - LOL - No body is gonna vote you out of the club! I really appreciate your indepth input. I'm not sure I understand why 2 different category anti-depressants are needed for pain relief. Do you have an explanation? I don't have the grisal anywhere but some of my muscles seem to cramp and get hard for short periods of time. What you go through sounds like excruciating pain!!! Bending needles. OMG..I feel for you Becky.

    starcat - Thank you. I will look into this book...sounds like it could be very useful.

    You know ... as I look over all your posts I think I feel terribly inadequate and confused. LOL. I think I need a more simple disease. There are too many variables and I can't get my mind around them all. I need a clear cut visual. LOL. Guess the brain fog is moving in, huh? Yes, I hear the fog horns now. I'll go eat breakfast and think over your posts. I will check back later if anyone has anymore more to say. Thanks again.
  12. jadibeler

    jadibeler New Member

    I toss and turn so much that I don't usually wake up with anything specifically sore. However, when I do sleep well and stay on one side too long, the pain wakes me up to turn over - shoulders and hips. I have more symptoms of FM than CFS (no fevers, sore throats, swollen lymph nodes), so I'd say both conditions might experience this.

    Try adding a theraputic pad (dense foam) on top of your mattress. I got one for my Mom and now I use one for myself. It made a big difference (found it in AARP catalog)

  13. CelticLadee

    CelticLadee New Member

    Thanks Joann,
    I have been considering saving up the bucks to get the Cuddle Ewe mattress pad sold here. I have read a lot of posts about how much it alleviates soreness/achy spots.

    I am still confused about FMS/CFIDS being the same disease as I have not had time to do any research or book reading on this subject since I last posted. Not enough energy or hours in the day. But I will continue my quest to learn as much as I can about it all so I can stop the symptoms from ruling my life if possible. I appreciate your input.

    If anyone knows of any more good books or website articles I would love to hear from you. May your day be filled with good thoughts and less pain.