Gupta protocol - anyone tried ?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia and ME & Chronic Fatigue Syndrome' started by deepak, May 25, 2012.

  1. deepak

    deepak Member

    Has anyone done that Gupta protocol ?

    is there any substance to it or just a marketing gimmick

    Love,
    Deepak
  2. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    I tried it a couple of years ago, and it did not help me. I kept right on crashing.

    It's hard for me to even remember what it involved - I think primarily it tried to change how you think about illness and so on, but it did nothing for me.

    I don't know if it will help anyone. They did offer a money back guarantee, and they did honor that - I did get my money back.

    Mary
  3. MicheleK

    MicheleK Member

    I have had several friends who have ME/CFS/FM get the program and really tried to do it. The thing is if you are pretty sick and mostly can't rely even on how much energy you will have in a day or an hour, it is impossible to stick to his program. So for the severe to moderately severe patient it would be money down the drain.

    Now if you have a more mild case or have fibromyalgia not in a severe form, patients like that have better success with it.

    The thing is it's a program for retraining your brain. If we were to evaluate if we could do some sort of physical training, we certainly would know right off that a moderatley severe or worse sick person wouldn't stand a chance to sticking to it. Heck, they don't even know what time they'll wake up, if they will be able to stay awake, if they can talk or not etc.

    Retraining the brain is no different. It takes someone who can commit to the program. So I guess everyone needs to be aware of that before they purchase the program and evaluate their own circumstances.

    The Mayo Clinic recently released a study showing that the program was beneficial. However; to evaluate the program they had to have participants who could commit and make it through the program.

    One of the doctors at the clinic I go to, totally is behind the Gupta retraining program. But not for the severely ill, though we could all gleam some new knowledge from the program. We all know that there is a definite mind/body connection to our health. We can certainly use our brains to help our health, though it will not cure our illnesses.

    I'd love to hear from anyone who was in reliable enough health to use the program and what kind of results they accomplished.
  4. deepak

    deepak Member

    Interesting that the mayo doctor backs it.

    Anyone has the DVDs of the program heh :)

    Love,
    Deepak
  5. GreenLiving

    GreenLiving New Member

    I haven't tried Gupta but there is an alternative program similar to his called Dynamic Neural Retraining System.

    It is an advanced version of the Gupta Programme, as it addresses the whole Limbic System of the brain - not just the amygdala.

    It comes in both a DVD set and a live program and was developed by Annie Hopper, inspired by the best-selling book "The Brain That Changes Itself" by Dr. Norman Doidge.

    Matter of fact, I recently attended Hopper's program in Toronto Canada where Dr. Doidge himself was in attendance. I believe he is writing about Hopper for his next book.

    Hopper's program uses neuroplasticity therapy to retrain the brain to grow new neural pathways to restore limbic system function. Her program appears to be getting some great success and I myself consider to be 90% recovered from cfs and mcs in less than two months.

    Hopper's DNRS is gaining more and more interest and acceptance from doctors and the medical communities.

    One of her guest speakers at our program, was a gentleman who took the program back in January of this year and is fully recovered. He has a phd in neuroscience and is director of research for a large stem cell company in New York. He gave a pretty convincing talk on how the brain can be shocked into disorganized neural circuits from a result of trauma or injury.

    There is some very big potential in this kind of therapy and I think we will hear a lot more of it down the road.

    [This Message was Edited on 10/24/2012]
  6. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    This program is basically a simplified self cognitive behaviour modification program. Gupta calls it amygdala retraining. (My daughter has the program which she got for the Queensland ME/CFS association.) There is logic to the program and I know a few people who have used it, some very successfully but as already stated it would very hard to do it properly if you can barely get out of bed. The people who I know who swear by it were mildly ill, two with ME, two with FM and one with MCS. However they were all severely ill many years ago and had improved over the years before trying the Gupta program. One of them states that she is permanently cured - as long as she keeps applying the program.
  7. deepak

    deepak Member

    Does anyone have the program which they could share or copy ?

    Deepak :)
  8. But how would retraining the brain fix the mitochondrial dysfunction/failure in cfs/me? And how would retraining the brain negate the effects of viruses or heavy metal toxicity that is so prevalent in cfs/me? Doesn't make sense to me...
  9. larocean

    larocean New Member

    i have had fibromyalgia for many many years and then chronic fatigue for about 7 years (associated with hyper-parathyroidism and surgery for a benign parathyroid tumor). i have tried everything, with some gradual small improvements over the past 7 years. but the MOST significant thing that has utterly given me MY LIFE BACK is the lightning process by phil parker. i did the training in september and it absolutely worked for me. i cant encourage you enough to go online to the website, get the book, learn about it, do it. there is a practitioner in california, the rest are outside the u.s. while i still have some fm symptoms my debilitating fatigue is GONE. i continue to use the process to address other mild-moderate pain symptoms but i have completely recovered my energy and cognitive functioning. it is nothing short of extraordinary. it is NOT magic. it is a training process that helps change the way the brain works. it requires work and trust in yourself and the process. i was desperate enough to put aside my skepticism and my medical training (i am an md, i had to close my psychiatry practice due to disability) to just dive in. (i learned about it when i went online to look into the amygdala retraining process again. i had done this several years ago with some improvement.) i watched all the testimonials, read everything online, got the book, worked on the questions, worked with the practitioner to prepare for the training, then did the training. it is amazing. the training is only 3 days once you are ready to do it. PLEASE look into this. i only wish i had known about it sooner.
  10. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    Godismystrength.

    Its like lots of things which can do a little bit on one area of the elephant but doesn't touch the whole. ME/FM cause a number of neurological disturbances: anxiety, depression, hyperexcitatory responses in sympathetic nervous system. Any good relaxant will help those symptoms. There is nothing special about Gupta and amygdala retraining.

    Big problem on the internet: very little is verified by data.
    I try to stick with the data but of course many people can get help "with their symptoms" from all sorts of treatments. Just look at this Klienhardt stuff using chlorine dioxide. Some people swear by it. But just how many of these people actually have ME/CFS or FM and even if they did in what way are they helped and how long have they improved?

    I am very skeptical about unsubstantiated claims which say "this is how it is".

    The mitochondrial dysfunction has been shown to occur in properly diagnosed people with ME and FM. But it is still an effect from whatever is disturbing the immune system. It looks like eg IFN alpha and IFN gamma, when they hang around, cause damage to the mitochondrial membrane. what causes them to hang around in elevated concentration we don't yet know. Probably re-activated viruses, probably of the herpes group.

    Now this is full of uncertainties which are clearly stated by the researchers from different labs and clinics so when somebody comes and says thats all rubbish and the real cause is eg "parasites" or faulty illness beliefs I see red.
  11. ...for your input. I tend to agree with your line of reasoning. I suspect that heavy metal toxicity could be the culprit of what is damaging our mitochondria and immune system... like a slow poisoning.

    I know that a few years ago a Provocation test showed that my body is loaded with mercury, lead, cadmium and uranium (from radioactive iodine treatment multiple times for thyroid cancer) among other things. Most of these, if not all, are neurotoxins...

    So I don't see how retraining the brain would fix the problem... this method won't get rid of the toxins/poisons in our system that are wreaking havoc on our mitochondria and immune system... which makes us a breeding ground for viruses and inflammation and neurological problems...

    Perhaps those who have been helped by these CBTs were wrongly diagnosed with ME/CFS yet didn't really have ME/CFS but rather something else that simply has the same symptoms.... ????

    I'm concerned that there are so many conditions that have so many similar symptoms that there may be folks who have mistakenly been told that they have ME/CFS (misdiagnosed) so that it skews the research results... (what little research has been done so far)... I don't know...

    Another puzzling thing is that these various CBTs seem to focus on positive thinking when many who have ME/CFS are very positive people in spite of the huge challenges of the disease... and yet, we're still sick...

    I'm sure if one has very negative thought patterns, then CBT can certainly help with that which I'm sure helps SOME...
    but I don't see how it could possibly CURE true ME/CFS...


    [This Message was Edited on 10/26/2012]
  12. deepak

    deepak Member

    Has anyone tried Dr Gordons beyond chelation suppplement to remove metals and other toxins ?
  13. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    Many of the elevated toxin levels in the blood of PWME are a consequence of the illness rather than a cause. Not that I would rule them out as a cause/contributor.

    Everyone is exposed to all of these metals throughout their life, some more than others, depending on diet, occupation and living environment. In ME the toxin removal is impaired, mainly because glutathione is depleted (again as a consequence of mitochondrial membrane impairment) so in some people these metals do build up, particularly in the liver. Obviously if you have been deliberately exposed to some of these they will be higher and if you were exposed at a time when you already had ME the levels might rise to a very high level and do further damage.

    I do think the mitochondrial dysfunction is an effect. Toxins could be a cause of that but not a lot has not been done on this. It is known that some of these metals cause mitochondrial swelling.
    eg see:" http://www.jbc.org/content/242/9/2098.abstract

    One thing we do know: re-activated viruses cause an inflammatory state. In that state IFNgamma and IFNalpha are at high levels. These high levels are known to cause changes in the membrane potential of mitochondria. Once that happens normal toxin removal is impaired and normal substances such as calcium become a problem. In addition the metals you mention and others such as aluminium become a problem too. This state undulates (waxes and wanes, suggesting viruses) causing some variation in symptoms. Symptoms in ME and FM are known to increase and decrease over time. This inflammatory state explains this better than anything else as it does in early MS, PD and Alzheimers.

    To my knowledge chelation has never been properly tested in ME/FM and I doubt it would last very long even if it did help initially and it is a risky business for someone with ME.
    For me the best way known and studied to remove toxins and their effects is to maximise glutathione and methylation.
    [This Message was Edited on 10/27/2012]
  14. I DO wish someone, somewhere would do more testing on this premise of heavy metal toxicity possibly causing the problems that lead to ME! It makes perfect sense to me... I do understand what you mean when you say that "many toxins are consequences of ME"... Its kind of like the chicken and the egg... what came first?

    But I would be interested to know how many folks (that truly have ME) also have the MTHFR genetic mutation which prevents the body from detoxifying itself. I found out a few years ago that I have BOTH the C677T and the A1298C (hope I remembered those correctly)... which makes it even harder to detoxify than if I had just one or the other mutation, I believe. And I got that info from an Alternative doc before I even received my diagnosis of ME. When I asked her what the test results meant, she said that my body can't methylate or detoxify itself. She wanted to start chelation but I was afraid to try it... Turns out I was right to be apprehensive... When I finally agreed to try it but with HALF the dose of the normal chelating agents... the next day I was in such bad shape it was like I had been poisoned! I couldn't move a muscle (felt like I was paralyzed!) and was too weak to even speak... VERY scary to say the least. Needless to say, I never tried chelation again... and I'm fearful of trying anything that will cause my body to start detoxifying for fear of a horrible relapse... although I KNOW that this is very much needed if I'm ever going to have a chance to get better... like being between a rock and a hard place though...

    But I still think it is a good possibility that heavy metal toxicity starts the ball rolling with ME... and then it becomes a vicious cycle... causing more and more malfunctions in our bodies, leading to weakened immune system and a proliferation of viruses and inflammation. And I can't help but wonder how many of us with ME have this MTHFR mutation that predisposes us to being more vulnerable to the effects of heavy metal toxicity than those who do not have this inability to detoxify...

    Thanks, Ian, for sharing this info with us... I think it is helpful for us to brainstorm ideas... perhaps it will help us to eventually get to the bottom of what causes ME... I wish there was a way to share our thoughts (hypotheses) with researchers... after all, it is our lives that are at stake...

    We lost such a strong and caring advocate when Rich died... he def seemed to be on the right track... I know we all miss him...

    Thanks again, Ian... so much...

    Blessings,
    Shel
  15. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    When my wife became ill (ME) we thought she might have high levels of metal toxins because she is a ceramic artist/sculptor. The tests showed she was completely normal. No excess cadmium, lead, mercury, iron, aluminium (aluminum) or copper.
    Now they didn't test for uranium but I can't see how that would be a factor in her case. Its not an area I looked into anymore and the clinic to which I am attached does not consider it . . . except . . .

    The simplest way to view ME is that it is an inflammatory disease. In the absence of any known cause or treatment to remove the cause, we treat the symptoms. All of the symptoms can be related back to inflammation ie. increased multi-systemic inflammatory cytokines. So in treatment we are attempting to lower the level of inflammation by:

    antioxidants known to protect the nervous system, gut, vascular system etc.;
    since glutathione is a special substance we need to increase it;
    better managing psychological stress and emotional state by thinking differently;
    improving diet and reducing saturated fats (s. fats are inflammatory);
    avoiding alcohol (it is inflammatory);
    avoiding smoking (it is inflammatory);
    exercising within the limits allowed by the ME but increasing it gradually(low exercise is inflammatory);
    Sleeping well (getting 7+ hours per night, not necessarily unbroken);
    keeping pain levels as low as possible (pain itself is inflammatory), that means taking pain killers if needed or SSRIs in the short term which can reduce pro-inflammatory cytokines but increase inflammation over the long term.
    protect our genes so that they function well and themselves do not cause inflammation by producing faulty proteins/enzymes.

    Heavy metals are pro-inflammatory by various mechanisms, eg.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9459494

    In addition we should be very careful about various "food" items that increase inflammatory cytokines like artificial sweeteners such as aspartame, saccharine, and flovour enhancers such as msg (sodium glutamate).

    eg. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12640-011-9264-9/fulltext.html

    [This Message was Edited on 10/27/2012]
  16. deepak

    deepak Member

    Ian- can you please explain what you mean by - exercise is inflammatory ?

    Godismystrength - did you try IV chelation or oral ? If oral, can you tell me which one ?

    Love,
    Deepak
  17. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    Low levels of exercise cause loss of muscle mass which can lead to sarcopenia. The lost muscle fibres are replaced by fat and fat, where it should not be, leads to increases in IL-6, a pro-inflammatory cytokine (and it also increases muscle mass loss as well). IL-6 can stimulate the release of IFN-alpha. Once this happens an inflammatory state occurs with consequent damages as explained. A progression into this state means that when exercise or exertion is attempted the inflammatory response is greater. This why progression of ME to total sedentary state is a serious problem for future recovery.

    Of course this is all more likely with later age. As people get older anti-inflammatory gene expression at rest and after a bout of exercise is impaired. Also TNF-alpha has been shown to inhibit myogenic differentiation. In differentiated muscle cells TNF-alpha promotes protein catabolism - even worse if IFNgamma is raised, which is the case in ME. IL-6 also increases muscle protein breakdown by reducing circulating levels of insulin growth factor. In some people with ME IL-1beta becomes raised and this is an activator of nuclear factor kappa b which in turn affects gene transcription making it more likely that protein sythesis is affected - possibly then impairing major enzymes such as glutathione peroxidase or super oxide dismutase. If this sounds like an inflammatory cascade, it is. It is the hallmark of ME.

    To review the inflammatory response to exercise in ME best to read the work of Prof Alan Light.
    eg here is good : http://www.research1st.com/2011/06/02/exercise-challenge-reveals-potential-cfs-biomarkers/

    This why low levels of exercise in ME is problematic and it is a great challenge to elevate exercise to avoid increased pro-inflammatory response as everyone with ME and FM knows.
    [This Message was Edited on 10/28/2012]
  18. Ian, which type of exercie is recommended for ME? I used to be a weight trainer many, many years ago and exercised (aerobically, as well as weightlifting, etc )and tried to stay physically fit my whole life... until, that is, the horrible mono hit almost 9 years ago... the mono took hold and wouldn't let go for over a year and at some point morphed into ME...

    Even when symptoms eased up eventually and I tried to go back to the gym, I would always have a relapse... after a few tries of this, it became clear that my exercise routine wouldn't work for me anymore. Over the years since then, I've tried riding a stationary bike at home, very light weights at home, and finally resorted to isometrics as my ME progressed.

    So I'm confused because I did try to keep exercising but my body couldn't seem to support it... though I suspect the stresses of life have knocked my legs out from under me with this disease numerous times (trying to keep up with raising 4 kids, a lot of deaths in the family, a rebellious teenager a few years back, a daughter's wedding, just to name a few). And when I finally got to an ME specialist a little over a year ago, after he did various tests, he determined that my anaerobic threshhold was 112 BPM and that I shouldn't ever let my heart rate get above that. However, I was never able to get into any kind of exercise routine because of a succession of relapses. And I keep getting progressively weaker and its affecting my breathing more and more.

    What have you or your wife had success with when it comes to exercising with ME? Obviously there is a fine line between under-doing it and over-doing it....

    Deepak, I had done the chelation by I.V.... just can't remember which chemicals were used. I haven't tried the oral chelating method yet... have been too afraid to try it. But I just may at some point. Have you tried either of these methods?

    Thanks, Deepak, for opening up this dialogue... and thanks, Ian, for sharing this info with us. I will have to check out those links... thanks again!

    Blessings,
    Shel



    [This Message was Edited on 10/28/2012]
  19. deepak

    deepak Member

    Dear Shel,

    Thanks for blessings :).

    No, I have not tried chelation yet but was looking into dr gordons Beyond Chelation supplement for heart health. He claims he has not had a single patient of his have a heart attack in the last 10 years- who were on this supplement - IF they were taking 2 packets of it a day which works out to quite a bit of money.

    I am in India so do not know too much about doctors there but is he considered reputed there ? I know Suzanne has featured him in her book.

    Love,
    Deepak
  20. ...with Dr. Gordon. And I haven't had a chance to get the book you're referring to (can't remember the name now... my memory is horrible lately! Uuughh!) But it sounds like something worth looking into... although if very pricey as you say, it may not be an option for some of us. This is very interesting to me, especially since I've had a lot more chest pain and pressure in my chest lately. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

    Sorry, Deepak, that I can't help you with whether Dr. Gordon is reputable or not... maybe someone else who reads this may be able to say. And you are most welcome for "blessings" :) Hoping and praying for better days for all of us...

    Ian, not sure if you saw my response some days ago to your last post on this thread... but I would be interested to hear your input... thanks!

    Blessings,
    Shel


    [This Message was Edited on 10/31/2012]