Has anyone herxed on NAC W/Glutathione?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Hippen, May 16, 2004.

  1. monicacat

    monicacat Member

    I had a horrible herx after using glutathione nasal spray.
    When I told my doctor what had happened, he cut my dosage to 1/10 of the original.
    [This Message was Edited on 05/29/2004]
  2. Steve_Catelin

    Steve_Catelin New Member

    I've just taken my first NAC capsule of 600mg. Within minutes I felt a sedated tiredness, with a minor headace and a general but slightly 'weird' feeling. As it happened so soon, I suspect an allergy but I'm holding out for now as others seem to have had these specific symptoms of tiredness and malaise. If it isn't an allergy we get, perhaps its supposedly potent detoxifing capability is causing our herx so quickly after starting supplementation because its detoxing a chemical. It dosn't have to be viruses or microbes, which I would expect to take longer to cause a herx!

    By the way, I've read NAC can burn up B12. As we tend to be deficient of this, it might be a sensible precaution to supplement this vitamin before taking NAC.
    I started B12 a couple of days ago but had a break today. The reason was that it was so effective in stimulating my mental energy, I became a bit hyper and had sleep-onset insomnia. It's wishful thinking but maybe if I take the NAC and B12 tomorrow their contradictory affect on my energy will cancel each other out and I'll feel normal. *l*
  3. tansy

    tansy New Member

    I use sub lingual methycobalamine, the one doctors insist doesn't work. Well it did!. I got the most amazing headaches from it initally because I took 2 x 5mg a day, yeah well I was desperate then, but then the seeminly endless headache I'd had all those years went away. I have other headaches/pains but that one had yet to return. It's claimed to detoxify the brain.

    I hope you are not reacting to the NAC.

  4. Steve_Catelin

    Steve_Catelin New Member

    It's very interesting how the methylcobalamin (I think that was the one you were refering too) cured your headace. Was the headace a long-term problem you had before you took it and was the curative affect of B12 permenent? If so, it would indicate it was pulling out neurotoxins.

    The research on CFS patients using hydo and cynocobalism does show that injections are needed. I couldn't find any comments for CFS doctors that taking methylcobalamin orally is any good, perhaps because its new on the scene. I didn't know anyone had said that it actually didn't work. I certainly reacted within half a day - and it was potent! CFS patients who have reactions to B12 that are a physiological extention of its main action, i.e. they went past a gain in mental energy and become hyper / jittery, could be because it is detoxing the brain. I suppose it also be an initial reaction to supplemention after being deficienct for so long.
    [This Message was Edited on 05/30/2004]
  5. tansy

    tansy New Member

    That was my conclusion after having used the methylcobalamin for a while. I was already on NADH, my first step in trying to get out of the downward spiral I found myself in, so feeling jittery may have been put down to that. I do not take NADH anymore, but I had the urine test done at Biolab 18 years ago, which is used to indicate it would help, mine showed a very marked problem. NADH was not around back then.

    Yes it was a long-term problem before that, I was rarely without it, but its intensity would vary. It’s been over a year now and that particular headache has not returned. The B12 is all I could put it down to at the time.

    I’ve had this kind of reaction to supps too and I put them down to having been deficient for so long. A classic example was when I had Mg injections; it felt as if my body did not know what do with the Mg, it was really weird. They did help but because they did not cure me my GP stopped them. I had low Mg levels in my red blood cells.

    My GP would not give me B12 injections even though recommended by the haematologist and Prof Findlay; my blood levels are at the high end of normal. She is supportive but she has yet to grasp how helful they can be. Maybe after a few more doctors say the same she'll change her mind, in the meantime the sub lingual form I take helps so I will continue with it.

  6. Daddio40

    Daddio40 New Member

    Doesn't sound right for NAC Glutathione. Both are powerful antioxidants. NAC is a natural booster for Glutathione. So not sure if you need to take both. You don't ever want to go over 1800 mgs of NAC in a day. These aren't knowen for their cleansing effects so I doubt if you are feeling die off from Candida or something. If anything NAC and Glutathione boost your immune system; which is not always good for fibromyalgia; from what I understand Fibro and CFIDS are both auto-immune dieases and if you boost your immune system you might feel worse. I would try something like plant sterols which are immune modulators. Just a thought; I am in no way a Dr.; I have studied herbology and naturopathic medicine. I would give it a rest and see how you feel. If you want something look for immune modulators. That is what the drug Ampligen; which is yet to be approved by our wonderful FDA is based on. Do a search on immune modulators and supplements. Good luck - Daddio
  7. Steve_Catelin

    Steve_Catelin New Member

  8. Steve_Catelin

    Steve_Catelin New Member

    I've read that those with candida overgrowth might be best avoiding NAC as candida quickly metabolises it. For those of us who seem to have a negative reaction to NAC - and it seems to happen quickly after starting supplementation - this could be an explaination.

    I don't have candida, but my IBS suggests I have something and perhaps this is capable of metabolising it too. I think I'll switch back to the whey protein.
  9. tansy

    tansy New Member

    but at least you can tolerate the whey protein so have another means of raising your glutathione.

    I have had candida and it can easily reccur, but I'm doing ok on NAC. I'm mindful of the lowering of Cu though, which can cause candida to flare, so may start supplementing this later, I'll just see how it goes. Having found how good primal defense is for me I feel that among it's many benefits it may well be keeping candida at bay. I've been on low dose doxy for most of the last 5 months, no candida and PD even stopped the diarrhea doxy causes me.

    I've made the biggest and most noticeable differences in my so called "IBS" and it's still improving. My GI tract is the best it's been for 40 years, I still keep getting moments of wonder over this. It's great.

    It's really frustrating when we react to things that should be helping us. Hang in there though because I can tolerate stuff now that I couldn't a year ago.


    [This Message was Edited on 06/01/2004]
  10. Steve_Catelin

    Steve_Catelin New Member

    …would be to start the GI bit of my supplement regime. I’ve got Primal Defence, digestive enzymes and lactoferrin lined up, in addition to the Colostum and Echinacea I’m taking now. I’d really like to start immediately but this could be premature. You see, I did a strong herbal anti-candida regime a few years ago that left me much worse – permanently. I didn’t have a big problem with candida but it seems that in my case killing off a lesser pathogen, as opposed to the big one that’s been wreaking damage for all these years, will make me worse.
    I’ll be doing an antibiotic regime in a month or two. Obviously it would be a good time to do the supplements afterwards to prevent overgrowth or reinfection although I’d like to do them before as well. If they didn’t kill the big nasty though, and only touch the minor ones, I’ll be in for a big crash. Then again, if the abx kill off something that isn’t the big one, well, that would make them as big of a risk as well!

    Ps. I am trying to diagnose this suspected infection in my GI, which would avoid all this confusion but it’s looking unlikely I’ll find it.
  11. tansy

    tansy New Member

    Now would help.

    The primal defense is good and if I weren't paying for so much else I'd be tempted to go the whole way with that; ie building up to, and staying on, the max dose for some months. Even after all the progress I've made it still makes sense to me. Some of the organisms in PD help our global health too.

    When I was in the hub of things many years ago I saw many recoveries and improvements made by following regimes at getting rid of GI tract pathogens and getting it to function optimally. Likewise with candida treatment but they were often combined. It seemed that lessening the overload of pathogens and toxins from the gut allowed the body to become once more able to heal itself; in some cases these problems were clearly the sole causes of patient's health issues.

    I had one stool sample tested 20 years ago, nothing came up on that, yet my GP and I agree there was a serious infestation (probably more than one) beyond candida (yes she's one of the few who recognise it). My respsonse to earlier treatments, and then the protocol I started last year, would seem to confirm it. All the local GI specialsits here are telling people to do is to eat yoghurt, totally inadequate.

    Getting it right before trying ABx is a good idea. My dose of doxy is low, it's not for ME but for another infection, and is the only thing that keeps it under control. I get diarrhea even at just 50mg but the PD has stopped it.
    I used courses of different herbs, alongside the rest of my regime, some of them were aimed at parasites and they helped.

    The answers are out there, we just have to wade through all the findings, theories, and treatment protocols until we find ones that make sense and then go for it. I'm not willing to wait for the powers to be in the UK to wake up,
    they've made terrible mess of it all and there's too many egos involved, each lookinbg out for their own. And as for our patient organisaitons, well I daren't get started on that again.


    [This Message was Edited on 06/01/2004]
  12. pastel

    pastel New Member

    I find that echinacea makes me feel worse; seems to ramp
    up my immune system so a little care may be necessary with
    that one.

    When you start taking new things do you add them one at a time to see how they affect you? I used to throw them all
    down my gullet at once and create quite a stew. Now have
    learned to really pace the introduction of new suppls &
    meds and see how each works.

    Good luck.

  13. Steve_Catelin

    Steve_Catelin New Member

    Yeah, I certainly add them one at a time and start at a low dose. I think the low dose actually makes it more likely you’ll tolerate something as well as mitigate any reactions. Guess what, today I dared to add two things at once and yep, I reacted a bit, and yep, don’t know which one! Crap!

    I like this softly, softly approach to introducing new things because it does reduce the chance of reacting and if you do react, you know what’s doing it and whether its worth continuing. Unfortunately, some supplements take too long to reach their full effect for it to be able practical to wait before you introduce the next.
    Having said this, once I’m comfortable with a med. I find using “shock” tactics can work rather well; this might include taking a few supps. for a problem and if they work, stopping them for a few days, then taking them at full dose. Pulsing (stopping and starting) can help too if the positive affect of a supplement tends to wane over time.

    I read you’re a CEO. If you can cure this thing, I reckon you’ll make it onto the NASDAQ at the end of your five year plan!

  14. OptimusUndead

    OptimusUndead Member

    what is this NAC w/Glutathoine???

    i see tansy talked about primal defense, which i was taking full force for a while, but right now its too expensive.

    is is something like PD........?
  15. Steve_Catelin

    Steve_Catelin New Member

    a nutrient thats received a lot of study recently, especially in AIDS and CFS. It a nutrient produced by the liver that is used a great deal by the body to detoxify toxic chemicals and it seems to be a potent antiviral, with anti-microbial properties.

    It has been found to often be deficienct in CFS patients, especially the intracellular glutathione. If the blood level is down, then your probably even more deficient. Patients who have stimulated their glutathione levels enough can find that virusus, including bad ones like Epstein Barr and HHV-6 and some mycoplasma can just drop away, within 6 months. Although the research on this nutrient isn't definitive yet, it strongly suggests this it is very powerful and in illness like CFS where it is deficient, supplementation can make a big difference, espeically when you consider how little decent anti-viral treatments there are.

    NAC is the main precursor to glutathione. It is probably the most established method to stimulate its production. Whey protein is also used although it has had less study. Lipoic acid stimulates glutathione production and recycles it. Vitamin E, C and Selenium should also be thrown into the mix to support and augment glutathione. Some use glutamine too but this is less likely to be deficient.

    For more info. look at what Dr. Cheney has written on it. Articles on this site and the web. Tansy pasted a good article on NAC at the start of this threat.

    Hope this helps

  16. Hippen

    Hippen New Member

    Just wanted to say that I am still taking the NAC and I actually am feeling better...every little bit helps!!!
    I am going to keep on keeping on.

    Thanks for all of the info posted on this thread...I love learning from all of you !!!!!! Love, Hippen
  17. Annvdb

    Annvdb Member

    Just wanted to share my experience here with NAC.

    I started to take this about 3 weeks ago, and after a couple of days I noticed I became much more tired during the day. Also I slept way longer than usual and when i woke up I felt sort of woozy/groggy . Another side effect was rapid heart beat. After some days, when I took it (600mg in the morning) my heart started racing for hours. I usually have a very slow steady heartbeat of about 57 beats per minute, but with the NAC it went up to 90.

    It is too concerning for me so I stopped taking it. I don't want to risk my otherwise good health. The reason why I started is because I have high androgen hormones and I wanted to see if it could lower them. Decided to share my side effects :)
  18. 5-0s101

    5-0s101 Member

    I know this thread is old, but I wanted to let any new people reading that YES, you can herx from NAC! NAC causes the EBs (Elementary Bodies) of CPN to burst open before they have a chance to infiltrate a cell. CPN has been implicated in MS, ME, Chronic Fatigue, fibromyalgia, IC, IBS, sinus issues, Alzheimer's, Macular Degeneration and more. I suggest checking out cpnhelp, it's an org.