HELP REDUCE HERXES = Suggestions/thoughts/Experience? ADD ON

Discussion in 'Lyme Disease Archives' started by victoria, Dec 24, 2007.

  1. victoria

    victoria New Member

    I don't think it's been mentioned too often here about how to help reduce the herxes safely without stopping/impeding the process... like, one would not want to take steroids obviously.

    I have 2 suggestions, off the top of my head:

    1) Chitosan: Rosner in his book about Lyme and rife mentions the specific product 'chitopure' altho I don't think we bought the particular brand; it can help absorb neurotoxins to get them out of the body. Chitosan of course is also known for helping reduce the 'bad' ldl cholesterol, and helping to lose weight. (win-win for many of us!)

    2) The lemon juice and olive oil drink has also helped my son immensely. Take juice of 1 lemon, mix with 1 T of olive oil, fill glass with juice (my son thought grape was best) or water & lemon/oil mix, and drink.

    Anyone else find things that helped minimize "the storm" a bit?

    Please add your suggestions, experiences with any mentioned, any thoughts...

    [This Message was Edited on 05/31/2008]
  2. mollystwin

    mollystwin New Member

    These are great suggestions. I use a detox bath occasionaly and that works pretty good for me.

    I had read about the chitosan, but never heard about the lemon/olive oil remedy. Some use the chitosan for weight loss too. It supposedly absorb fat too. Not sure how good that works though.

  3. elliespad

    elliespad Member

    I've used this for other detox adventures. Might try (Bentonite) Montmorillonite, it is a volcanic ash. Its negative charge enables it to pick up positively charged toxic material from the alimentary canal to be expelled in the feces.

    Technically, the clay first adsorbs toxins (heavy metals, free radicals, pesticides), attracting them to its extensive surface area where they adhere like flies to sticky paper; then it absorbs the toxins, taking them in the way a sponge mops up a kitchen counter mess.

    There is an electrical aspect to bentonite’s ability to bind and absorb toxins. The clay’s minerals are negatively charged while toxins tend to be positively charged; hence the clay’s attraction works like a magnet drawing metal shavings. But it’s even more involved than that.

    When bentonite absorbs water and swells, it is stretched open like a highly porous sponge; the toxins are drawn into these spaces by electrical attraction and bound fast. In fact, according to the Canadian Journal of Microbiology (31 [1985], 50-53), bentonite can absorb pathogenic viruses, aflatoxin (a mold), and pesticides and herbicides including Paraquat and Roundup. The clay is eventually eliminated from the body with the toxins bound to its multiple surfaces.

  4. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    Just a caution about bentonite clay. It is sometimes prescribed for alcohol detox.

    Like alcohol, Drugs are toxins too, and since I have used Xanax for decades for my muscle spasms, I went into benzo withdrawl from taking bentonite and almost had a heart attack.

    So, Please Be careful if you are on any important or addictive drugs. I think it would be wonderful to try it if you are not taking any prescriptions.

    I use chlorella and lots of lemon water with occasional small amts. of milk thistle (milk thistle can also bind to benzo drugs). I also exercise to tolerance...I think sweat helps get toxins out and exercise speeds metabolism.

  5. victoria

    victoria New Member

    Forgot to add that my son also found the steam room really helps him detox when he can't exercise at all.

    He won't take an epsom salt bath, which I really like (already mentioned here) altho I find steam rooms oppressive and overwhelming years ago even. How hot and how much sweating one can take may vary from person to person, many suggest that epsom salt baths should not be over a certain temp (103?).

    Also, teasel tea may help some for joint pain, altho for certain strains of Bb it appears to increase the herx......... so start with small amounts for caution's sake.

    HBOT (Hyperbaric Oxygen Treatment) if you can afford it can also help the brain in particular........

    Also IV Glutathione.

    (Keep in mind of course, not everything works for everyone... for example, the IV Glutathione worked the first time for my son, but disastrous the second time even tho it was done 2 months apart. If it is done too close together we were told it could cause a herx...... but in this case he seemed to suddenly have an allergic reaction, altho the 2nd IV had B12 added to complicate the situation.)

    [This Message was Edited on 12/27/2007]
  6. cherylsue

    cherylsue Member

    Good thread. My LLMD says I have trouble with detox, so I'm listening to what you folks have to say with interest.

    I like burbur, lemon juice in water, walking in the fresh air even when it's cold, and taking hot showers.

  7. victoria

    victoria New Member

    Our chiro offers "ionic detox foot baths"......... can't remember exact name of it, sorry........ but my son reports significant relief from these, also. He varies what he uses, depending on availability and how often he's used it - seems to help to vary it and not depend on any one particular thing every time.

    (As you can tell, he's had significant problems with detoxing over past few years, so he's had a lot more experience at trying these things than I have (epsom salt baths seem to work well for me).

  8. Daisys

    Daisys Member

    My LLMD explained to me today that about 10% of people have an abnormality that means they have trouble clearing mold and lyme out of their systems.

    The liver processes it correctly, and then it's supposed to be attached to something fatty (my memory is failing me here) to be carried out of the system.

    What to do to help that process along is to take in a lot of soluable fiber. He mentioned oatmeal and apples. Since I'm gluten intolerant, oatmeal's out for me.

    But I have a great treat that has loads of soluable fiber: my own coconut muffins. Coconut flour is almost entirely soluable fiber. I already eat at least one, but often 2 for breakfast. Now, doctor's orders: 3 a day, or 2 and an apple.

    This may not be the answer for everyone, but just may be part of the solution for many of us lymies.
  9. highcotton

    highcotton New Member

    That's a good idea about the apples -- i think i'll try it as soon as my LLMD starts me on a protocol -- still waiting...

  10. pawprints

    pawprints New Member

    When I can afford it...massage has worked for me and accupuncture. Sometimes just walking around and moving my body helps. Sometimes nothing helps, even the herbs, and I have used green tea. Maybe it works because it makes my bowels move.
  11. victoria

    victoria New Member

    this was written by Dr. Joseph Jemsek, can't remember where I found it tho:

    "Given the miserable experience which we may exact on our patients during therapy, we would perhaps be better off if we followed the advice of Russell McMillan, DDS, DPH, who wrote the Arthritis Trust of America in 1994 with his personal remedy for the Herxheimer reaction.

    “'I take a ‘saltz’ bath which consists of adding

    1 cup salt,

    1 cup soda,

    1 cup Epsom salts,

    1 cup aloe vera,

    to a reasonably hot bath which I remain in and keep hot for about 1 1/2 hours all the while consuming about 2 quarts of warm water. Evidently the perspiration and osmotic pressure removes the causative toxins."

  12. cherylsue

    cherylsue Member

    I tried the Epsom salt baths once, and I almost passed out. I felt worse! I did bentonite clay foot baths, and almost relapsed. Our bodies are so different.

    My LLMD, Dr. C in MO, suggested I try the diet aid Alli which he has been experimenting with his patients. It's to be taken 2 hours away from taking meds. It's the cheapest at Walmart. Alli is supposed to mop up the fat soluble biotoxins along with the fat, and one passes it the stool. It prevents the toxins from being reabsorbed into the liver.

    I'm a little chicken and haven't started it yet because of its purported flatulence problems. You also have to be on a very low fat diet.

  13. munch1958

    munch1958 Member

    In my Dr C paperwork it says to stop Abx when herxing and restart at a lower dose. It says your brain will tell you to keep going with Abx but your body is telling you to stop. Ignore your brain!

    In studies they have found that it takes 8+ months for the Lyme spirochete or Borrelia to grow. A few days without ABX
    does not matter in the long run. The people who DO NOT follow this advice and continue to push through the herxing while taking Abx usually DO NOT recover.

    As far as neurotoxins go, I'd either get the Detox Max Plus or push for Actos or Cholestryimine or something! Remember, I'm not a doctor just someone struggling with multiple tick illnesses.

    I'd opt to try one box of Alli for 10 days just to see if it does work on neurotoxins like cholestyrimine. I doubt gall bladder damage would happen in a short time frame. Does the manufacturer allow refunds?

    Wasn't Alli a RX med first? Then released OTC? We hear all sorts of horror stories about weight loss products but would the FDA have allowed it to go OTC if it was THAT bad? Have you read the Alli message boards?

    Getting rid of toxins seems to be the biggest hurdle in getting better. Once those are gone, real progress could be made with all kinds of Abx to target the infection.

    Wouldn't neurotoxins halt progress on getting rid of Babesiosis if you have that too?

    Dr C is brilliant! Affording everything is a problem but I try to do everything he says because:

    1) It costs a fortune to go to him;

    2) He sees thousands of Lymies so he knows his stuff;

    3) He's ahead of the cutting edge curve;

    4) He talks to other LLMDs all over the country;

    5) He is a Lyme Top Gun - who else am I going to see if it doesn't work for me?

    Go to the East Coast? Dr B is retired. The she Dr F isn't taking anymore patients right now especially since the Mystery Diagnosis episode. Dr D has an integrated approach with focus on psych aspects of Lyme. I would guess he's all booked up too as is the Columbia Lyme program or Dr F.

    Remember, I've already flopped out of FFC. Financially, trying another LLMD isn't going to be an option unless I could find one that takes Aetna.


    6) I'm not driving all that way 3-4 times a year, paying for a hotel and gas to NOT listen to him. He's the doctor that I'm paying to help me better so I'm not going to "WHAT-IF" everything he says. I'm 95% better as a result of following his instructions;

    7) I can validate every suggested treatment somewhere on the internet or find others on message boards that say XYZ works. There haven't been too many negative comments anywhere;

    8) I just want this whole thing to be over with. It would be faster to listen to this doctor and do what he says than to hunt down some other LLMD and start all over!
  14. victoria

    victoria New Member

    Dr. J is also a 'top gun' and advises pulses of abx in order to give the immune system a rest. The Bb take about 28 days to reproduce btw. He also advises not to instantly stop taking abx just because you are herxing. Only if it becomes intolerable. He's not advising things like Alli or heparin, etc...

    he was the one interviewed in the CFIDS Chronicle in 2005 about the CFIDS/Lyme overlap... and is also always at the conferences speaking. It's always good to look at all the different ideas.

  15. Rrrr

    Rrrr Member

    this is from a friend's doctor...
    - rrrr

    First Aid for Die-Off Reactions

    When clearing organisms, the clean up process must stay ahead of the killing of organisms otherwise people feel horrible fatigue and flu-like symptoms. The elimination organs are the skin, bowel and kidneys and we need to optimize the function of all of them. Endotoxin works against us by tricking the body into believing that it should decrease bile production, reduce blood flow to the kidney and skin, and dump large amounts of iodine from our tissues into the urine. We must stay ahead of all of these problems. There will be times when you have a bad day because you over did exercise, sauna, vitamins, minerals, antibiotics, or antivirals and you will need to do something fast to save the day. Here are some ways to normalize energy production and minimize die-off reactions:

    A.) The basics: (we especially need the ocean and the sun during an endotoxin challenge. Move to Hawaii if you can! If not, then do the next best thing-- make your own.)

    1.) Water: many people don't know they are dehydrated, but feel achy instead of thirsty.
    Drink 2 quarts a day of filtered water daily (no chlorine...consider Brita filters).
    2.) Salt: All salt is not created equal. Read the book "Salt Your Way to Health" and start using
    unrefined Celtic Sea Salt. Must say "unrefined". It will not be white salt. Helps adrenal function.
    3.) Iodoral: Endotoxin forces the kidneys to dump iodine and we feel worse without it.
    Use body temp and saliva pH as a guide. If you are cold (below 98F) and acidic (pH below 7.2), try a bit more Iodoral and unrefined salt and water.
    4.) Heat: Hot baths with epsom salt and sea salt work for spasms, and near infrared sauna is
    powerful. Create fever (temp above 99F), it increases immune function and blood flow . With
    enough salt and water inside, the sauna will allow us to make full use of our largest elimination organ---the skin. Replenish water and salt after sauna.
    5.) Sunlight: Stimulates the pineal gland, improves sleep. Get outside without sun glasses.

    B.) Vitamin C Mutants: (all but 4 of God's creatures make Vit C from glucose. Big problem for us.)

    1.) Vitamin C Flush: Use powdered, buffered vitamin C during die-off. Increase to bowel
    tolerance (loosens GI) then back off by 25%. Some people can take more than 30 grams a day
    without any bowel issues and feel much better for doing it. It is in your blood for only 3 hours.
    2.) Go to <> for more info on the need for more Vit. C during die-off reactions. We must stay ahead of the enemy's molecules! Running out of something basic that we need to function makes us sick and tired. Fortunately Vit. C powder is inexensive.

    C.) Mitochondrial Support: (helping the energy production part of the cell reduces spasms and fatigue)

    1.) D-Ribose: 1-2 scoops empty stomach, can combine with any med, take as much as needed.
    2.) Pyruvate: 500 mg take 4 at a time until better. Increase energy and exercise endurance.
    3.) Alpha-lipoic Acid + Carnitine: 2 tabs, may repeat as many times as needed.
    4.) CoQ10: 200 mg daily is usually good enough.
    5.) Vit B12: 3 cc twice a week or extra sublingual 3x a day
    6.) Magnesium: extra oral or 2 cc shot can really help. Epsom salt bath increases Mg too.
    7.) Plaquenil: normalizes mitochondrial membranes, decreases die-off, increases energy.

    D.) Endotoxin clearance: (bind it, digest it, sweat it out!)

    1.) Charcoal: 10-20 caps between meals if nauseated. Binds endotoxin in the gut.
    2.) Digestive enzymes: 1-2 with meals or before meals breaks down endotoxin's lipid A with lipase.
    3.) Ursodiol (UrsoForte): 300 mg 1-2 twice daily increases bile volume, prevents endotoxin from
    backing up in the liver.
    4.) Sarsaparilla: binds endotoxin nicely. Take as much as you like. Used to make root beer!
    5.) Milk Thistle: Similar to Ursodiol. Supports liver.
    6.) N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC): supports liver by making glutathione. Kills spore form of Cpn.
    7.) Vitamin C laxitive effect: Constipation will increase toxicity. If Vit C doesn't keep the gut
    working, consider an enema if very constipated.
  16. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    If you're looking to reduce the biotoxins that Lyme bacteria make, I've found that plant sterols work on biotoxins. The nice thing about both plant sterols and soluble fiber is that you're supposed to eat LOTS of natural fats when you take them. (If you're using them for detox instead of cholesterol-reducing.)

    It might be a good idea to take extra fat-soluble vitamins, though. And a person may need extra calcium, extra thyroid, and/or more liver support.

  17. Daisys

    Daisys Member

    My LLMD put me on cholestryamine. It's almost entirely soluable fiber and, if taken on an empty stomach, will suck up toxins on it's way thru.

    The problem is: what is available as a prescription has sugar in it, more than I can tolerate.

    I'm going to get a prescription from a compounding pharmacy that is sugar free. When I get it, I'm going to compare it to coconut flour, which is almost entirely soluable fiber. If they seem to work the same way, I'll just use the coconut flour--it would be much cheaper!
  18. victoria

    victoria New Member

    some are using cholestapure, which are plant sterols... not sure if they're the same that was talked about above or different ones. But some on the lyme & rife list talk about using one or the other products (ie, some cannot take the cholestyramine for 1 reason or another)...

    it seems hard to find, googling pure encapsulations cholestapure only brought up one source...
  19. Daisys

    Daisys Member

    It sounds like that is not a prescription. I wonder how the cost compares to ordering pure cholestryamine from a compounding pharmacy...

    Thanks for the info.
  20. victoria

    victoria New Member

    Cholestapure is available OTC....

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