Herxing & detoxing - can anyone help?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by pepper, Jan 8, 2006.

  1. pepper

    pepper New Member

    10 days ago I thought that I had finally found a combination of treatments that was working for me after 13 yrs of CFS/FM. Then it came crashing down and I am feeling exhausted, legs and arms like cement, unable to do anything except watch TV and come on the computer for company. I suspect that I am herxing and/or detoxing and don't know what to do.

    - Sept.- started a gluten-free diet. This has helped me feel better in the past, sister has Celiac's, so I figured it was a good place to start

    - early Dec.- diagnosed with candida infection which I suspected was systemic

    - mid Dec. - bought a Needak Soft Bounce Rebounder and rebounded every hour that I am home for 2 min. Worked up to 4.5 min.

    - started Oil of Oregano for the candida
    - increased Garlic capsules for BP, cholesterol & candida
    - started N-acetyl cysteine to strengthen my bad liver

    After the best Christmas I have had since becoming ill in '93, I crashed 5 days later. I guess I could be detoxing from all my treatments.?? Or herxing??

    I have not been able to rebound since the crash except for Fri. when I thought I was starting to feel a little better. I did 2 min. once and that was all I could handle. Could this have stirred up the detoxing?

    I stopped all supplements 4 days ago and still feel awful. My husband already does almost everything around here. Now I cannot even do the few jobs that I am in charge of.

    Is there anything I can do about this or do I just have to sit it out?

    Could I still be detoxing or herxing after stopping everything days ago?

    Thank you so much for any help with this.
    (((HUGS)))Pepper


    Edit: I forgot - went off the G-F diet on Christmas Day. I didn't want to hurt my DIL's feelings when she went to the trouble of making a wonderful, gluten-filled dessert! It was a slippery slope and I ate gluten for the 5 days before the crash.[This Message was Edited on 01/08/2006]
  2. Tantallon

    Tantallon New Member

    Hi Pepper,

    You do sound like you are herxing, but did you overdo it because you were feeling a lot better.

    I'm not familiar with the oil of oregano, a lot of people use the Threelac for candida, me included.

    I'm trying (Threelac (again) and Coconut oil) been on for 4 days, felt a lot better the previous days but today, really bad because I overdid it.

    Are you drinking enough water, if your killing stuff off it needs to flush out of your system.

    Hope you feel a lot better soon
    Sue

  3. Pianowoman

    Pianowoman New Member

    Pepper,
    I certainly think it's possible that you are detoxing and/or herxing. You have started quite a few new things in a short time. Although, you said your Christmas was a good one, I always find that this time of year is an added stress no matter what!

    Take heart, however, there is hope and I'm sure you will bounce back soon. There are some things that I know of that can help.

    Of course, there's the drink lots of water advice. Epsom salts baths are helpful There are a few products that I have noted here that people have used. There is burbur, Heel Homeopathics Detox, Beta Glucan. I use AMD by Genestra that my ND prescribed. If you find you are not recovering, there is the Infrared sauna if there is one in your area. It can be really helpful. I presume you are on a good probiotic as well.

    The book Detoxify or Die by Sherry Rogers is excellent.

    Finally, get lots of rest. I have experienced a lot of detoxing and herxing in the past couple of years and sometimes you just have to go through it but it's nice to know that there are things that help.

    Good Luck
    Kathy.
  4. pepper

    pepper New Member

    Yes, I am drinking lots and lots of water so I should be flushing things out.

    And yes, I do think that I overdid it. The day before I crashed I was awake from 4 am until 11 pm and had a great day. I rebounded every hour for 4.5 min. That is a lot of rebounding in one day!

    But would I still be paying the price 10 days later?

    I ordered both ThreeLac and Tropical Traditions Coconut Oil off the Internet when I was diagnosed with candida. Neither has arrived yet! Probably held up at Canadian customs.

    I hope that you remember not to overdo it as I did and are feeling better soon.

    (((HUGS)))Pepper

  5. pepper

    pepper New Member

    I was not aware of all these things that can help. I am definitely sending my husband out on a mission to find these things.

    Detoxify or Die is a book recommended by my CFS doctor. Our library does not carry it. Perhaps I will buy it. I do have her first book, Pain Free in Six Weeks in which she recommends the far infrared sauna.

    There are no saunas here for me to use. We are going to buy one but are waiting for my DH to find a job. Maybe we will have to bite the bullet and put it on our credit card. I actually thought that the sauna would make me feel worse, not better since it causes the toxins to move around more - which is what I assume all these things did too.

    As for resting, I have no choice, much as I hate it!

    Thanks so much for your advice.
    (((HUGS)))Pepper

    Edit: Whoops! I ran out of my probiotics and haven't taken them for several days. Could this cause this severe exhaustion?
    [This Message was Edited on 01/08/2006]
    [This Message was Edited on 01/08/2006]
  6. Pianowoman

    Pianowoman New Member

    I doubt that missing probiotics for a few days would, in itself, cause severe exhaustion. But it is one piece of the puzzle.
    I forgot to mention liver support. That is very important. Some Milk Thistle itself or with Dandelion is good. Most of your detoxing is through the liver and it can be stressed at this time.

    Take Care
    Kathy.
    [This Message was Edited on 01/10/2006]
  7. pepper

    pepper New Member

    Thank you again, Kathy, for your help.

    I have been taking dandelion tea at the suggestion of some members here. I take ONE swallow every day. That is all I can handle.

    I have tried Milk Thistle in the past and it made me feel the way I am feeling right now - only worse. I was confined to bed until the effects of the Milk Thistle wore off. I had to have my boys support me to the bathroom which is right off the bedroom! It was terrible.

    N-acetyl cysteine is a precursor to glutathione so I thought that would be a liver support. I am wondering if that is what put me over the edge. I discovered that it detoxifies as well.

    This has happened every single time I have tried any type of detox. I don't know what the heck is wrong with me! Why can other people detox and handle the symptoms? My symptoms are crushing and disabling and I simply cannot function.

    I already am unable to work due to these DD's but slicing a piece of cheese for lunch is all I have been able to do for the last 10 days. If my DH were not here to do just about everything else, I don't know what I would do.

    (((HUGS)))Pepper
    [This Message was Edited on 01/08/2006]
    [This Message was Edited on 01/08/2006]
  8. karatelady52

    karatelady52 New Member

    I gotta tell you about these detox foot pads. They're quite popular on my lyme board.

    I order them through Healthmarvels.net and if you go to their website, they explain how they work.

    My first ones I ordered through e-bay but these are the best prices I've found. I now buy them by the 100 and shipping is free. I've found the gold ones work the best for me.

    You put them on your feet at night and tape them in place. In the morning they are gunky and almost black with junk pulled from our feet. Our feet are where most of the nerves in our body end and I think I read they are the second largest sweat gland.

    Anyway, they really relieve my headaches when I wake up in the morning. I've been using them for about 3 months and they are still dark but not as much.

    As they get lighter, you can use them less often.

    Sandy
  9. pepper

    pepper New Member

    The fellow who sold me the Needak Rebounder recovered from prostate cancer by using alternative treatments. He is an unbelievably healthy 69 yr old. One of the treatments he used were detox foot pads from Japan. He told me the same things that you mentioned.

    I looked them up on that site and am very impressed. I am going to order them. I wonder how I decide which ones to use since I have all the different problems listed for each type of pad! I guess I will try the sampler pack.

    Thanks so much for this information.
    (((HUGS)))Pepper
  10. tansy

    tansy New Member

    with too high a level of toxins from die off, this happens when the level of toxins exceeds the body's ability to excrete them. So IMHO we have to do two things, slow down the level of die off and assist detox in a gentle but effective way. Triggering too strong a detox when using some detox protocols can backfire because they can increase the toxin overload.

    One of my favourites is adding lemon juice to water (lemon water). My father had a bad reaction to something that left him with bodywide inflammation and stiffness, he took my advice on lemon water and felt it sped up recovery from that.

    We have over reactive senstive immune systems, and some of the symptoms referred to as herxing are an immune response, so anything that revs up the IS might not be so suitable whilst the herxing etc is at it's most severe.

    My ME/CFS and lyme disease specialist often recommends the detox kit by Heel, that's already been mentioned. I have used this, it definitely has an effect, but it's not too strong for the body to handle.

    Whilst suffering from the bad effects from recent acupuncture and then a nasty virus, I had to cut my rebounding down, some days I avoided it altogether, others I used a very short health bounce only and just once a day. This was a time I wished I'd been able to afford a chi machine since I think that would have been more useful to me.

    I like the sound of the foot detox pads; in fact I've just ordered some for my son. He has ongoing phlebitis in his thigh which causes a lot of ankle and foot pain from the toxins, so these pads might help. A chi machine might too.

    If you are gluten intolerant and went back onto it at that rate it may explain some of your current Sx. The sugar from the puddings will have fed the candida, so die off levels would have increased too.

    I will post Lee Cowden's suggestions to help with die off, it's aimed at reducing the Sx from lyme herxing when taking samento, but some of it applies to die off from other pathogens too.

    Hope this soon passes.

    love, Tansy[This Message was Edited on 01/08/2006]
  11. tansy

    tansy New Member

    *A few things can be done to minimize this healing crisis cascade of events.

    First, starting the treatment with TOA-Free Cat’s Claw at a very low dose and building up the dose very slowly and cautiously over many days reduces the rate of microbial die-off. This in turn reduces the production of the microbial toxins that create the die-off healing crisis reaction.

    Secondly, having the person who takes TOA-Free Cat’s Claw drink large amounts of pure water each day helps to flush the toxins out of the body faster. The preferable water intake is between ½ and ¾ ounce per pound of body weight per day (a 150 pound man would drink between 75 and 112 ounces per day).

    Thirdly, if a person takes certain herbal and/or homeopathic remedies to aid the detoxification of the ground matrix, lymphatic, liver, kidneys and bowel, then the microbial toxins do not tend to build up in the tissues as much (this is sold as the Heel “Detox Kit”). Homeopathic mistletoe (viscum album 12x or 30 x) is a very good remedy for ground matrix. The herbs Echinacea and/or clevers plus skin brushing and exercise are good for lymphatic support. Hydrangea, watermelon seed and parsley are helpful for kidney support. Dandelion, milk thistle and lipoic acid are helpful for liver support. Also each person should have at least one large bowel movement per day by using sufficient magnesium malate, fiber such as psyllium and, if necessary, herbal laxatives like cascara sagrada.

    Fourthly, algae, grasses and fiber (chlorella, barley grass, and psyllium, or slippery elm) help to bind the microbial toxins to carry them out of the body.*

    ---------

    There is a green and herb tea mix as well, which can help the body detox, you can change some of the ingredients according to what you most want to achieve.

    4 bags decaf green tea (antioxidant, detoxifiers, blood cleansers, energy booster. Contains chlorophyll, minerals, and enzymes).

    2 bags dandelion root tea (reduces swelling and fluid build up. Cleans blood and liver and is used as a diuretic. Reduces serum cholesterol and uric acid. Improves kidney, pancreas, spleen and stomach functions).

    2 bags red clover tea (good for weakened immune systems. Acts as a natural antibiotic, blood purifier, and relaxant. Good for skin diseases, liver disorders, and kidney problems)

    2 bags Pao D'Arco (Pau d’arco- contains a natural antibacterial agent. It cleanses the blood
    and is good for candidasis and all types of infection).

    2 bags peppermint tea (stomach settling, enhances digestion. Use for chills, colic, diarrhoea, headaches, nausea, spasms, and poor appetite).

    Bring some water to a boil and steep all of the herbal tea bags in a 4 cup tea pot for about 20 minutes. The long steeping time is helpful to release the constituent ingredients of the herbs. Steep the green tea bags in the same amount of water, but separately for about 5 minutes so the tea isn't too strong.

    Then combine the herbal tea and green tea into a large jar and dilute the mixture with water. You can add 1 or 2 packets of Stevia Plus sweetener. (stevia is not available in the UK, xylitol is a good alternative that has other health benfits too.)

    The original instructions that came with this mixed tea recipe recommended Milk Thistle tincture and liquid Germanium which can be taken separately.
  12. Jeanette62

    Jeanette62 New Member

    Hi Pepper,

    Some of what your going through sounds similar to what I experienced. I am being treated for Chlamydia Pneumoniae Pneumoniae (CPN) and N-acetyl cysteine (NAC)is used to release the bacteria endotoxins and can cause herxing.

    Initially, I was kind of brain fogged the day of the appt. because there was so much info and didn't realize the NAC could cause herxing. I also didn't understand how important it was to keep up with the Vit. B12 shots I was prescribed and I chickend out in giving them to myself. The shots help with the fatigue and boost your energy.

    I slowly started all the different supplements the doctor prescribed and the NAC wasn't one of the first thank goodness so I had a several good weeks before I crashed. I was totally drained and exhausted, had extreme muscle achiness, burning stinging pain all over, severe kidney and abdominal pain and didn't feel like doing anything. I didn't even go to the gym for a week and when I did I had extreme exhaustion and pain in my muscles after 2 min. of exercise. I had never felt anything like it before. I also had pain around my eyeballs and burning and stinging around my eyes. At the time I just thought it was a bad flare and I had a kidney problem, but after learning more about it I realize it must have been a herxing reaction. You can also have herxing from Candida so maybe your getting a double whammy.

    One of the things my doctor has me do to help minimize sx is to eat a high fiber diet and take 10 charcoal capsules 2 hrs before or after any meals or meds one time a day. I also take a digestive enzyme called Pangestyme.

    If you do have the cryptic form of CPN in your system the NAC could have stirred it up and some of them could have come out of the cells and died and others may not have died, but could still be causing you symptoms.

    There's more info about it at cpnhelp.org

    Hope this helps and you start feeling better soon.

    (((HUGS))))

    Jeanette
  13. karatelady52

    karatelady52 New Member

    Almost everyone I've talked to uses the gold ones. I think I ordered blue at one point but didn't like them as much.

    Sandy
  14. pepper

    pepper New Member

    You are a fountain of knowledge. I understand about keeping the level of die-off manageable but I wonder how to figure out what is manageable. I had no idea I was taking too much "stuff" but obviously I was.

    Lemon juice! I will try that for sure. And I am getting the Heel Detox kit. And I will try not to feel guilty about not rebounding for awhile. I have only been doing the health bounce but I guess I overdid it.

    The recipe for the tea looks interesting. Should I worry about it causing further detoxing?

    I am going to look up "chi machine". I have never heard of it.

    Thank you for all this information.
    (((HUGS)))Pepper

  15. pepper

    pepper New Member

    You've really got me thinking. CPN! I am sure that I have some of those nasty things that have not been diagnosed. If I had the $$$ I'd go down to the FFC and find out. Meanwhile, I am going to see if my CFS doc will test for it among other things.

    On Thursday when I was continuing to feel so terrible, I researched NAC and discovered that it caused detoxing. I had no idea. A doctor friend recommended taking it because it is the precursor to glutathione and I am no longer getting it in IV form.

    Your reaction to NAC sounds similar to mine. Unbelievable, isn't it?

    When I see my CFS doc on Tuesday, I think I will ask for a prescription of B12. I used to give myself shots but never felt any better. Perhaps with all the other stuff I am doing, it might help. Can't hurt!

    I am going to have to make notes - get some charcoal from him and a good digestive enzyme. Getting more fibre in my diet - who would have thought that would help. But I am going to do it all!

    Now I am going to check out that web site.

    Thank you so much.
    (((HUGS)))Pepper


    [This Message was Edited on 01/08/2006]
  16. pepper

    pepper New Member

    I have joined the Health Marvels "Reward Program" and will order once I have decided on the colour of the pad.

    Would you recommend the gold pads even though I also have psoriasis, liver problems and weight issues? Different colours seem to address those issues.

    Thank you.
    (((HUGS)))Pepper
    [This Message was Edited on 01/08/2006]
  17. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    Some of the supplements you were on are far more powerful than you know. NAC is a precurser to glutathione and packs a wallop, I get a dreaded herx on either one. Shortlived though and just a few hours, but I know the kind of buildup herx you are feeling now. I get that when I go on certain antifungal/antiviral/detox supplements, I can go so many days and then I'm flattened.

    I'm curious why you can only take one swallow of dandelion tea? Is it the taste, or reaction to it? If you react to dandelion strong, you are exxxxtreeeemely sensitive. You were also way overdoing it w/ the rebounding, it promotes serious lymph drainage.

    Btw, the tea recipe mentioned probably isn't for you. It contains several very powerful ingredients. And red clover in particular isn't to be trifled w/, it has much stronger estrogenic effects than soy even and can cause serious hormonal imbalance in the already affected. I think the homeopathics are a great way for you to go. They are often the only course for those too sensitive for many drugs and supplements. I also highly recommend adrenal and multiglandulars. I'm getting amazing results w/ them. W/ my light therapy lamp, it's completely cleared me of 15 yrs of SAD.


    Jeanne
  18. pepper

    pepper New Member

    I am actually glad to hear that I am "definitely" detoxing. Then at least I know I can come back from this. I have been very frightened that I have done some damage that I won't recover from. So, I will recover, right?

    I had no idea that NAC was so powerful. I didn't even know that it was a detoxifier until last Thursday's research. I just went by this doctor friend's recommendation. I will know better next time.

    I can only take one swallow of danelion tea because I feel extreme detoxing effects if I drink more. I believe you are the one who recommended just one swallow. I cannot get beyond that!

    Questions:
    This is Day 11 of feeling "flattened" - good description, Day 5 without taking those supplements. Why am I still feeling this way? I can understand a day or three but 11??

    I know that rebounding causes lymph drainage but I thought that was a good thing - ie. moving the toxins out of the body. Is it similar to detox in that the toxins can make me sick before they move out of the body?

    I am going to look into the adrenal and multiglandulars at Rainbow when I can get my husband to drive me. Too exhausted to drive! Would these things cause any kind of a herx or detox? I am getting gun-shy now!

    Thanks for any help.
    (((HUGS)))Pepper
    [This Message was Edited on 01/09/2006]