hey barrow, others question on liver test

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by simonedb, Sep 18, 2008.

  1. simonedb

    simonedb Member

    Hey I was digging through my lab and test results last couple years and found the results of the ultrasound on my abdomen I had in '05 (had it because had a bad reaction to a med that made my gut hurt constantly and it freaked my doc out at the time, she is not one to look into things for me normally, I keep her for other reasons)

    so it said i didnt have a stone (no g.b. anyway, but i know they can still go in duct and thats what she wanted to rule out) but it does say:
    "Mild fatty infiltration of the liver".
    I didnt notice that before and she didnt comment on it.
    Is this nothing or is it something a person would want to do further ruling out?
    I have very narrow parameters of what I can eat and drink (coffee and alcohol forget it, for years no--can't, hurts gut immensely; most meds even microdoses can mess me up etc) I wonder if my chemically sensitivity could be related to liver issues. Other than possible routine labs at a physical I havent had it looked into further than this ultrasound.

    Ok I just googled it and know a little more, sounds like maybe docs don't say a lot about it because they don't think there is a lot they can do, but shouldnt she have mentioned it to me and said lets monitor it? That was 3 years ago and I just had another physical and she didnt even test my enzymes ( I think enzymes came back normal in past).
    Do you think its within mainstream medicine expectations if I were to say I want another ultrasound done every x no. of years to see if its worse or same? one reason I go to this place is that my ins. will pay for everything there.
    It sure sounds like fatty liver could explain a lot about fatigue etc
    I am not overweight, well this year have put on a little, but at the time this was done I was not overweight at all.
    I don't have diabetes but do have reactive hypoglycemia.

    I already take milk thistle and do a lot of natural stuff but just wondering if should expect more help from mainstream, if anything they can and should be doing.

    [This Message was Edited on 09/18/2008]
  2. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    I have liver damage that explained all my symptoms in the beginning, but according to modern scientific testing, my liver was just fine. The liver enzymes have been up and down, but that doesn't mean much because as liver cells die, they spill the enzymes into the blood so elevated enzymes just means cells are dying at that particular time of testing. If you already have damage or cells aren't dying at that moment, the tests will show you're okay, even though your poor liver could literally be on its last legs.

    If you suspect your liver isn't functioning like it should, then it probably isn't. There is lots of into about livers online for you to be able to tell by symptoms if it's having problems. I went to the ER countless times in the past, feeling so close to death that I was sure something would show up on a test somewhere. But nothing ever did. I also had ultrasounds which didn't indicate any problems, either.

    Now I know it was my liver, but the ER doctors always insisted I was fine and sent me home, saying I should see a shrink because there was nothing wrong with me. In fact, the last time I went to the ER in the US, they told me since they couldn't do anything for me that I shouldn't come back unless I had a high fever. There ignorance and arrogance are off the scale, with their arrogance preventing them from seeing their ignorance. They can all kiss my liver.

    If I had known back then what I know now, I probably could have pulled out of this relatively quickly. The medical profession can't treat certain organs because they take a long time, a lot of supplements and herbs, and a radical diet change - like the adrenals and liver. Most people expect a quick fix like a pill and those are the most profitable, so doctors go there and we're left to suffer or figure it out on our own. Those without computers are doomed.

    But since they strung me along, taking all my money, I sustained even further damage and even damage to my kidneys, I'm sure. I tried to go by general recommendations about diet and things that I read online. But since I've been getting treated by Dr. Farr, I understand the need for tests to determine the exact state of digestion (which will give lots of info about the liver) and the guts before you can expect too much from treatment. We all have different things going on, even if we have some of the same symptoms, and it will save time, money and be more effective if you have the proper tests done first. Then you know exactly what diet and supplements you need. If you guess, like I did, you will probably get some things right, but you could miss some other things and not fix yourself up as well as an expert could.

    I think if you go with mainstream medicine, nothing good can come from it because since they can't treat the liver, but can sell you one, you won't really know how bad it is until it is severe and then they'll want to sell you one.

    If you've had your gallbladder out, then you are bound to have problems with the liver because there is no storage for bile, so it trickles into the intestines constantly. It might not be concentrated enough to detox or digest fat when you need it and so fat and toxins will hit the liver harder than they normally would.

    I had horrible hypoglcyemia, too. For 5 years. Dr. Farr's diet and supplement plan got rid of it in a few weeks. Now I can go 7 hours without food and it doesn't bother me at night, either. That's a real relief. It was because my diet and supplement plan that I formulated myself was not as correct as it could be. It's funny because I'm using a lot of the same supplements, but in different amounts, at different times, and he cut carbs out of my diet. It took a couple of weeks of transition, of eating some carbs and drinking little sips of juice now and then to get over the hypoglycemia, but it worked and it's no longer a problem.

    If you have insurance, it can't hurt to have the tests done, but you shouldn't wait for those tests to show how bad you are. Get a real health expert to help you, NOT a medical doctor. They are great for crisis management, like when you wake up and your liver is practically dead, then they'll get you a new one. But as for helping you before that happens, forget it - you're really on your own. You have to find a health expert and get the proper tests done.

    I'm sure you've seen my stool analysis thread. He can help. I found him online and he's everything I hoped he would be. My real obstacle now is the damage my liver and kidney's have sustained by not being treated properly until now, and the lyme that is complicating everything. It's going to take a long time to fix them all, but at least I feel good now. A messed up liver can explain all your symptoms. If it can't process your food for nutrients or make the metabolites your body needs or store the vitamins and glycogen you need, then it will turn you into a basket case.

    And since you can't tolerate alcohol, caffeine or chemicals (drugs), that's definitely liver. I couldn't tolerate them at all, either. I couldn't even eat fat or protein without feeling bad. Now I can actually take a whole Ultram for pain when I need to without feeling bad, or eat a whole leg of chicken, but I can't push it. I have to take a liver support pill with any drug and it tends to stay in my system longer than it should be there. The liver is having problems detoxing things which simply means it can't turn drugs into other chemicals that it can eliminate easily. I believe you can fix a liver with the right help, diet and supplements. That's what I'm doing. I've already come a long way in 6 months.

    Fatty liver is a big deal because it's associated with inflammation (which the doc said was a major problem with me and put me on some anti-inflammatory enzymes right away) which can cause cell death and scarring. So you need to figure out the right diet and supplements for you. Mainstream medicine will not be able to help, don't waste any more time and money. They have no drugs for the liver.
    My first liver doctor even said milk thistle was a waste of time. It turned out HE was the waste of time AND money.

    You said your food and beverage diet is already pretty narrow, what is it?

  3. simonedb

    simonedb Member

    hey karen
    thanks for response.
    I am having an off day, which is bumming me out, because yesterday sort of rocked, was good, got a lot done, and attributed some of it to taking b-1 this week as that one guy has been recommending on the thread based on eisinger's research.
    but today sorta sucked. I am on LDN and its been like that, up and down, a couple good days a couple bad days. I imagine part of the reason I can't get full benefit from it is because of my detox problem, I did have a detox profile done thru a natural doc, the genova test and know I have phase 11 issues, probably from liver damage. So anyway, I think I am having hard time getting totally adjusted to LDN, it has replaced pain meds for me and somedays it gives me a good day, but I can only tolerate .1 to .3 mg of it when normally people take 3.0 to 4.5 of it. I was gaining wt. on it this summer, but the last week since trying eisinger's diet ideas for fm with no eating late in day and only protein late I have noticed my food cravings dimininishing and I think it has potential to get wt. back down, although unfortunately constipation is a problem on ldn, even at this low dose, whereas it wasnt on 2-3 60mg of darvon a day, odd.

    I have always been sensitive and also when I was a teenager I went through a heavy duty "party" phase and I am sure that didnt help my liver, although I became straightedge in early 20's the damage may have been done, plus the gallbladder coming out at age 29 even though I was as fit as any athlete at the time, it could have happened from yoyo dieting and bc pills (both things are known to mess with g.b.)
    I really regret that surgery, it was major (not laplaser) and they took my appendix at same time too for the helluvit and researchers recently found out that has a function, after all, duh, with digestion.

    so anyway, yea lots of potential for things to have gotten messed up along the way, and thats not even going into the spinal injury aspect.

    so, here is my deal, I took alcat allergy test and 99% of time I am only eating safe foods but rotating them was kind of a bust for me. I can't seem to kick cocoa/choc, pure cane sugar, and tea (yea with caffeine, just no coffee). It feels intolerable at times if I don't have some of those things for energy/mood, and oddly they are allowable per my sensitivity blood test. I try to make sure to have protein before any tea or sugar or chocolate though.
    I have gravitated towards wanting to eat chicken and rice almost every day, with maybe some dates, honeydew, cucumber, brussel sprouts, sunflower seeds, peanut butter, rice cakes, blueberries, that sort of stuff sprinkled in, actually chicken and rice and ricecakes with sunbutter or peanut butter my main staples last month. I supposedly can have soy but I realised I feel gross often after I have it so cutting it out. NO dairy since May, no wheat for years. I can have beef and fish if I want to. there are other fruits and vegies i can have, but lately been sorta eating same stuff.

    I have read your stuff before and related to some but I am trying to remember (without going back and lookingfor thread right now) I think we had some diffs, like you could tolerate more dig. enzymes than I. I havent really found one that doesnt start to give me, well, problems of an embarrassing nature but not radical, and even s. boulardii, which helps constip. I found, if I take it more than 2x a week I start developing a dif problem in gastrointestinal system like I do with dig. enzymes.

    I forget your thread on doc farr will have to look that up.
    does he allow private ins. to pay for any of his stuff?

    I totally hear you about having er/med people kiss yer liver.....acutally I feel resentment boil up in me a lot lately and I am trying to deal with that and not let it hurt me, but I feel it must be sort of how discriminated minorities feel/felt when they were discounted and mistreated, its enraging to be belittled or not believed or discounted to save money. I was just thinking tonight I want to get an atty and go after ins. co. and doctor for not doing more, I am not going to because too vague and hard but that fighting spirit deep down wants to demand appropriate help, I was raised thinking docs and med system there to help us, its turned so bogus. Part of the privatization push in u.s., get everybody paying out of pocket or going to private people for the real stuff.

    I am not sure what to focus on first or most though, because I have been dx by integrative doc as having diastolic heart issues and I think that explains a lot too, some of the fatigue and weird intolerable pressure feeling I can get in body.
    anyway, as far as liver stuff goes I will look into dr farr more later or look for your thread when in a research mode.
    thx! you seem like you have figured out alot for yourself.
  4. gapsych

    gapsych New Member

    I had one of my liver enzymes elevated, sorry brain fog so I do not remember which one. I did not have any symptoms.

    It was going down but not very fast. I ended up getting a liver sonogram. Then they realized it was coming from my bones and thought I might have Paget's disease.

    By that time I had a bone scan and everything came back normal. Within a months time my liver enzymes were and continue to be normal.

    But I am glad to have had the tests for ease of mind as I was really afraid that my pain might have been from cancer.

    What is funny is as they were doing the scan, I could see my skeleton on the monitor and some darker spots in my neck, knees and feet.

    This was arthritis. I have no pain from the arthritis. Go figure.

    My liver was slightly fatty and the doctor said to lose weight. I eat very little fats in my diet.

    Take care


    Edited. The enzyme that was elevated was alkaline phosphatase.
    [This Message was Edited on 09/18/2008]
  5. campbeck97

    campbeck97 New Member

    I have had high liver enyzmes over the last eight year, up on one blood test and mormal the next. I also have had a sonogram done which showed fatty liver. The Dr. didnt seem to concerned about them being elevated , that we shold just watched them and test often. She also mentioned doing a liver biopsy but I declined that one.Only thing she said was maybe losing some weight might help some. I have had my gallbladder removed. she did mention it coild turn into cirrosis later on.so we just continue to watch.I really dont know what we are watching for ???? liver failure? It dose concern me tho and have thoght about taking some supplements to see if i could help it on my own.I am a dibetic also. I really dont know what supplement would be safe with medication i take for my fibro.
    [This Message was Edited on 09/18/2008]
  6. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    Are you getting the full spectrum of B vitamins? They should really be taken together, not just one. The liver stores Bs, and I have to take them a couple of times a day. I use a couple of different ones that have bioactive forms in them, that means they don't need to be converted by the liver. Virtually all vitamins have to be converted by the liver into forms the body can use. I take the B complex, plus a sublingual B12. The Bs I use are Country Life Coenzyme B Complex and Jigsawhealth. The latter also has folate and is 12 hour time released, both of them are quite excellent.

    The thread about Dr. Farr is "toxic guts, toxic body, why do a comprehensive stool analysis". He fills out forms for insurance, but I don't have any so I can't use it, I guess it depends on your company. He can tell a lot from tests that normal doctors are clueless about. My first tests I had done were the stool test and comprehensive bloodwork and I was astonished and amazed about how much we learned about what was going on. It had been there all the time and my ignorant doctors had no idea. Even now, when I try to tell a medical doctor about digestive issues, I get a blank stare. They don't even believe they exist. All they believe in is what they have a drug for, like acid reflux. And that still goes back to the fact that you are eating something you shouldn't, either because you are already having digestive problems or you can't tolerate it for whatever reason.

    I think money is a big factor, too. Remember when they told teens on the news that acne was caused by a junk diet and things like pizza caused it? Well, they were right. But soon after appeared studies showing that pizza and junk food played no part whatsoever in acne. I guess after the first story linking acne to pizza came out, there must have been a significant decrease in junk food sales and so they scrambled to tell kids that the initial reports weren't true, when they were. What teen wouldn't give up pizza and doughnuts and crap if he thought it was causing his acne? My acne disappeared when I stopped dairy. But milk products are a huge part of the economy, and so are teens.

    Your diet sounds pretty good except for a couple of things. I hope the chocolate you're eating is raw, that would be better than milk chocolate, obviously. And rice I found is not the safe food I thought it was. I was eating lots of brown rice because I already knew white rice is just like eating a lump of sugar. There's no nutrition in it because the proteins have been bleached out and it turns to sugar quite rapidly in the body. But brown rice was supposed to be better, or so I thought. But it turns out it has bad things in it like leptins, which hinder digestion, and it is still high carb and just as high on the glycemic index as white rice. I was eating tons of rice and beans, thinking they were healthy, but they were causing and perpetuating my hypoglycemia.

    It was only after I got off of them, and used enough betaine hcl that I was able to completely reverse the hypoglycemia that plagued me for more than 5 years. You may want to reevaluate your carbs as the cause of your hypoglycemia. I have liver damage and thought it was my liver not storing glycogen properly and not able to convert proteins to sugar as causes of my hypoglycemia, but that was not true. I'm doing just fine with those now, but my liver is having problems detoxifying. I'm reluctant to do the test just yet, though, because it calls for taking about 650mg of tylenol and I'm afraid that could do me in.

    Just want to mention also that my favorite peanut butter (I don't eat peanut butter anymore because of the aflatoxin risk), Jiff, has soy. I was really surprised when I noticed that on the ingredient list one day. Cashew butter and pine nut butter are my new favorites. At least you're off wheat and dairy, they can really halt progress.

    I wanted to sue some of my doctors, too, for really dumb mistakes, but you have to find another doctor willing to go against them and that's where the problem lies. They all back each other up. It's really disgusting how their profession has allowed to become - ignoring causes of chronic diseases, prescribing drugs that kill livers and not realizing the liver is bad until it's REALLY bad, not getting appropriate tests done that show our problems even though they are available and acting like we're hypochondriacs if we have a chronic disease they can't treat. I'm going to start making up doctor jokes, there too many lawyer jokes out there and doctors deserve some of the humiliation, too, for their greedy profession.

    That weird, intolerable pressure you're talking about in your body, is it a tightness or heaviness in your chest area? I've found a few things that will do that. One is liver congestion and the liver having problems. I used to think these were my heart in the beginning, but my heart has never showed any problems that a doctor could detect (though that obviously doesn't say too much, look how they are with livers). Also in the chest I could feel adrenal fatigue, but that was usually on each side of my back - an exhaustion and ache where the adrenal glands are. And a lack of metabolites can make your chest area feel too hollow, or hungry for something. I am pretty good at popping the right pills to get rid of it, though I haven't had the chest issues for some time. Once in awhile, if I forget a certain pill, or take a pain med, I'll get the chest feeling a bit. But now I know what to take to get rid of it. It took me a loooong time to figure all this out!

    Also, low blood volume can make your chest feel empty and your heart feel like it's about to quit on you. I did what Cheney said, and started with lots of magnesium (I use magnesium malate) and calcium and then I found an excellent mineral pill which really helped my heart issues, Krebs Cycle Chelates. It's mineral chelated with amino acids for maximum absorption and it is just fantastic. I also used Electrolyte Stamina, an really good electrolyte solution with just a small amount of sugar. Orange and grape are the best tasting flavors and I'd drink it like 3-4 times per day. Now I don't even have one every day, only when I'm particularly thirsty.

    I had my worst times in the middle of the night. I guess that's because the liver slows down then, and pools the blood there, and so your blood volume gets lower. I would need to drink liquids and take pills in the middle of the night, but not anymore since Farr's been treating me. I used to call it "midnight pilling", it made an enormous difference in how I felt when I woke up in the morning. I would take a few pills around 2 am and again at 4 or 5. Now I just take some when I go to bed and when I wake up around 6 or 7.

    What's LDN, BTW?

  7. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    I bumped it up to the front page.
  8. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    Hi, I would recommend taking a look at the stool thread, also. If you don't have a gallbladder, I think there are some ways you can improve on the way the liver handles things to compensate. I don't know exactly, since I still have mine. But from what I've read, taking bile salts and betaine hcl. Since the bile detoxes and helps digest fat and it can't be dumped in any large quantity because there's no storage facility for it and it only trickles down to the intestines, you just have to make adjustments to diet and maybe use some supplements.

    I would definitely get some tests done with Dr. Farr. You can always google for fatty liver diet and general recommendations, but you get much better results when you base them on personal test results.

    From what I've read, fatty liver is all about diet and the most common cause is alcoholism which explains why Saoirse3's idiot doctor would accuse her of being an alcoholic when she didn't even drink! Just because she had a fatty liver! See, they just don't listen! They are an assembly line pill store. Don't treat the cause, you might not come back. Give them a med for a chronic disease, and there's continued need for the med and all those follow up bucks, er, visits!

    good luck

  9. simonedb

    simonedb Member

    heya barrows
    I have bad reactions to taking mulitple b, b 6, and I even have special preservative free b12 injections that i can control dose to be as small as i want and even so often herx or something the next day so stopped doing it.
    I was happy to find out I could tolerate b-1 this week, must really need it, although i cut it back in last couple days cus something was making my heart feel weirder and sort of hyperstress like stimulant.

    That is one reason I want to go to PFeiffer Center and see if they can really work with me to see what body needs and/or figure out why I can't tolerate so much stuff that maybe it does need too, of course if that is cus of liver and detox problems, well could take a long time to reverse. I mean I havent had alcohol and coffee for most practical purposes almost 20 years (25 etoh), since had g.b. out almost 20 years ago havnet been able to lie down after eating so most of time digest upright which is good and avoided bad fats all those years since cus of no g.b. and GERD. been taking milk thistle more than 5 years. drinking aloe all summer.
    Granted I still drink tea and have cane sugar and chocolate, and the chocolate has been organic and without dairy all summer..........and also about the peanut butter, its pure and organic. the town i live in has whole foods, trader joes, and a wonderful food coop so good stuff easily available for years. was drinking distilled water since 89 and now have reverse osmosis water in my home.....i dunno, how good can ya get and still be a canary in a coalmine......

    I would be open to completely quitting tea and chocolate if I could go live somewhere in california like in that movie "safe" haha but not ready to yet on my own, although i may get to point where have to like with coffee or alcohol who knows. i had to quit chewing gum couple years ago after root canal and i never thought i could quit that.

    LDN is low dose naltrexone. and its been a good one in a very minute dose for me to transition off darvon and still have the pain controlled for the most part. but i suspect its harder on my liver even in small dose, so not sure if its permanent solution for me. most people can tolerate those small doses of it no problem from what i read on the boards about it. it has become pretty constipating to me though and darvon never was oddly and so i am taking a couple days off to take care of that, have been drinking aloe and magnesium drinks even mineral oil and slippery elm and was still having trouble.....senna did work but felt gross the next day i think from it. not sure if its worth it to have the constip.,but i want to take at least a 6 month break from darvon and see if i am still the same person.thats the thing about opiate meds, its great when they work well and u can tolerate them, but i did start to question myself after a few years wondering if it changed who i am. in the last few years i am starting to feel like more blah of a personality, not sure why, maybe all the limitations of not being able to do whatever you want and always having to plan ahead and be careful what u eat and activites. gets old.
    [This Message was Edited on 09/20/2008]
    [This Message was Edited on 09/21/2008]