How Doctors Kill Patients (by Paul Cheney M.D.)

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia and ME & Chronic Fatigue Syndrome' started by Slayadragon, Jan 19, 2007.

  1. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I just started watching the Paul Cheney videotapes and was struck by one of his initial points:

    "Recent studies of the most common cause of death, you might be interested to know, show that the third most common cause of death is being victim of a physician.

    "It kills 225,000 people every year.

    "It is the third leading cause of the death, behind heart disease, which is 1, and cancer, which is 2. And unfortunately, 3 is the medical system.

    "Of the 225,000 deaths, approximately 100,000 deaths are due to drugs. And those deaths are not due to mistakes of drugs, they're due to the drugs themselves, their known side effects.

    "We're not talking about mistakes or overdoses. They're not part of the 100,000.

    "Most drugs are not intended at the primary problem but at symptomatic remedy, and they're killing 100,000 of us every year."

    *

    Take this for what you will.

  2. cherylsue

    cherylsue Member

    Lisa,

    I'm glad you are watching the DVD's. Dr. Cheney is most provocative, and he will get you thinking along different avenues.

    I'm still wondering if Levaquin didn't trigger my CFS during my awful flu which had me hospitalized in 2000.

    CherylSue
  3. foxglove9922

    foxglove9922 New Member

    Funny you mentioned Levaquin CherylSue. I know there's a couple other posts out there from people who have also suffered ill effects from this AB.

    I on the other hand took it for 7 days just recently for a bad bout of bronchitis. It knocked the bronchitis out real quick but I herxed like I've never herxed before. When I was done with the Levaquin, I actually felt so much better.

    My cognitive thinking has improved and so has my physical stamina. Was it a coincidence? I wonder at times after reading so many posts from people doing this and that and eventually reaching a better quality of life that maybe, just maybe CFS runs it's course with some of us. Have you ever thought of it that way?

    Sorry lisa if I got a bit off topic here.

    Foxglove
  4. cherylsue

    cherylsue Member

    Have you ever had a CFS profile done at Immunosciences Lab?
    Lisapetrison has posted on this and has the contact info. Her CFS doc ran one, and she was amazed at her viral load. Currently, she is on a Famvir protocol for 6 months before switching to Valcyte. We're following her progress, and overall she's seen some improvement.


    And yes, I think my CFS needs to run its course. No matter what I do, it has a mind of its own.

    Hugs,
    CherylSue
  5. NyroFan

    NyroFan New Member

    lisapetrison:

    I did not see the video, but that certainly is an eye-opener.

    I am so sad that these kinds of videos do not make it to more doctor or the public at large.

    I will look for this recording and learn a few new things.

    Thank you for the post.

    nyrofan
  6. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Wasn't that great? It was so cool of Dr. Cheney to say that.

    But it is shocking.

    I hope that Dr. Montoya doesn't accidentally kill anyone with his Valcyte protocol.

    Forebearance
  7. Catseye

    Catseye New Member

    This is a copy from the AMA website of the Declaration of Professional Responsibility: Medicine's Social Contract with Humanity:

    "1. Respect human life and the dignity of every individual.

    2. Refrain from supporting or committing crimes against humanity and condemn any such acts.

    3. Treat the sick and injured with competence and compassion and without prejudice.

    4. Apply our knowledge and skills when needed, though doing so may put us at risk.

    5. Protect the privacy and confidentiality of those for whom we care and breach that confidence only when keeping it would seriously threaten their health and safety or that of others.

    6. Work freely with colleagues to discover, develop, and promote advances in medicine and public health that ameliorate suffering and contribute to human well-being.

    7. Educate the public and polity about present and future threats to the health of humanity.

    8. Advocate for social, economic, educational, and political changes that ameliorate suffering and contribute to human well-being.

    9. Teach and mentor those who follow us for they are the future of our caring profession.

    We make these promises solemnly, freely, and upon our personal and professional honor."

    It very conveniently leaves out "making people healthy".

    And as for #8, I don't hear many of them speaking out about the very obvious changes needed to ameliorate OUR suffering, not to mention the many other chronic diseases.

    And let's not forget the Kevorkian irony.

    karen
  8. enjoysue

    enjoysue New Member

    Thanks for listing the oath. I think I should make a statement with my doctors and bring a copy along in with me to my appointments, especially my internist. She makes me so mad and yes, I will be firing her but not before I give her a piece of my mind. LOL That includes the oath and recent research on fibro. She thinks it's all in my head and she doesn't even know me because I haven't seen her that much. Next weeks appointment should be v-e-r-y interesting!
  9. shar6710

    shar6710 New Member

    From the FDAs Center for Drug Evaluation and Research (CDER):


    The first question healthcare providers should ask themselves is "why is it important to learn about ADRs?" The answer is because ADRs are one of the leading causes of morbidity and mortality in health care. The Institute of Medicine reported in January of 2000 that from 44,000 to 98,000 deaths occur annually from medical errors.1 Of this total, an estimated 7,000 deaths occur due to ADRs. To put this in perspective, consider that 6,000 Americans die each year from workplace injuries.

    However, other studies conducted on hospitalized patient populations have placed much higher estimates on the overall incidence of serious ADRs. These studies estimate that 6.7% of hospitalized patients have a serious adverse drug reaction with a fatality rate of 0.32%.2 If these estimates are correct, then there are more than 2,216,000 serious ADRs in hospitalized patients, causing over 106,000 deaths annually. If true, then ADRs are the 4th leading cause of death—ahead of pulmonary disease, diabetes, AIDS, pneumonia, accidents, and automobile deaths.

    These statistics do not include the number of ADRs that occur in ambulatory settings. Also, it is estimated that over 350,000 ADRs occur in U.S. nursing homes each year.3 The exact number of ADRs is not certain and is limited by methodological considerations. However, whatever the true number is, ADRs represent a significant public health problem that is, for the most part, preventable.

    1Committee on Quality of Health Care in America: Institute of Medicine. To err is human: building a safer health system. Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press; 2000. 2Lazarou J, Pomeranz B, Corey PN. Incidence of adverse drug reactions in hospitalized patients: A meta-analysis of prospective studies. JAMA 1998;279:1200–1205. 3Gurwitz JH, Field TS, Avorn J, McCormick D, Jain S, Eckler M, et al. Incidence and preventability of adverse drug events in nursing homes. Am J Med 2000;109(2):87–94.
  10. mindbender

    mindbender New Member

    Of all your threads I love this one the most.

    I've been a victim of this and was smart enough to stop it myself. I'm much better now, and very leery of drugs now, I'm very sensitive to them.

    Thanks for the thread, Funny But Sad

    Dan
  11. mindbender

    mindbender New Member

    the number crunchers above me. If you guys would actually make some sort of sense, you might have an argument.

    But I doubt it

    guns don't kill people, people kill people

    Dan
    [This Message was Edited on 01/19/2007]
  12. kjfms

    kjfms Member

    One of the biggest problems I see in my work each day is noncompliance.

    Patients with serious diseases come in wondering why they are not feeling good. The physician ask if they are taking their medication? Patient answers no I didn't like it...OK so how is a physician going to deal with that? They can't force the patient to take the medications.

    This is where I say it is the patent's fault for noncompliance.

    Then there are the cases of patients who call after taking a medication for one week -- hardly any medication has enough time to get into one system within one week and insist on going off the medication before giving the medication a chance...

    Then their are patient who will not communicate with their physicians. These are called poor historians -- these are the patients who think they had a surgery several years ago but cannot tell you when or when exactly or if there were any compilations let alone the name of the surgeon.


    Oh lets not forget patient who never bring in bottles of current medicines or at least a list including vitamins, supplements, and herbs. And then wonder why the physician can't work miracles.

    I think the patient has a very big role in asking questions of their physicians and pharmacist -- not all blame can be placed on one side.

    The majority of physician want to help patient but we must that physician have a lot and I do mean a lot of red governmental tape-work that they must go through.

    We as patients must work with our physicians not against nor should we simply go i set down and expect them to just "take care of everything".

    Physician see thousands of patients per year with thousands of different diseases and conditions there is no way they can know everything.

    They are not the cure all, be all, or whatever else one might apply to them.

    They are human and they put on their pants one leg at a time.

    So please work with you physician not against him/her. Have conversations about what is bothering you and for goodness sake if you are feeling rushed tell the physician so, 9 times out of 10 a good physician wills top and listen to you.

    Best of luck to all,

    Karen :)

    Addendum: As for the ICD-10 the powers that be AHIMA, AMA, CDC, etc... have been talk of implementing this coding system for 6+ years that I can think of off the top of my head. I like many who are or have been or will be again in medical coding will believe it when I see it...

    As for coding death due to wrong doing of drugs yes you can code it.

    You would first code the type of death be it:

    Brain
    Cardiac
    under anesthesia

    and then the drug(adverse effects and the cause) if any involved (you would have two codes)

    There are also codes for mistakes such as in the OR actually you would be surprised exactly how many different codes there are and for so many different reasons.

    Thanks,

    Karen :)



    [This Message was Edited on 01/19/2007]
  13. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    I don't think we're bashing doctors here, nor do I think that Dr. Cheney was bashing doctors when he said that. I think we're just acknowledging that doctors are human and that the science of medicine isn't perfect. And people can react to medications in unexpected ways.

    Forebearance
  14. kjfms

    kjfms Member

    Used wrong word.

    I do not need an explanation but thank you for the effort you put forth -- I work with physicians and have done so for several years.

    However I felt the need for another side of this story to be told.

  15. kjfms

    kjfms Member

    I used the wrong word and I have since change it. Before everyone gets in an uproar.
    [This Message was Edited on 01/19/2007]
  16. matthewson

    matthewson New Member

    Dr. Cheney has made a lot of money selling supplements and of course he is going to push those over medications. BUT, he turned to mainstream medicine when he had his heart transplant and is currently on anti-rejection meds.

    Seems to me he should be grateful that such medications and procedures were developed so he could live longer, instead of bashing Dr's, and he specifically does in this article and I quote ("Recent studies of the most common cause of death, you might be interested to know, show that the third most common cause of death is being victim of a physician.)

    I guess maybe he doesn't include HIS Drs. in his data!



    Take care, Sally
  17. u34rb

    u34rb New Member

    Doctors don't say they're practising for nothing! And when it goes wrong they bury their mistakes!
  18. Catseye

    Catseye New Member

    I think it's just the nature of the industry. I lie in bed suffering and feeling like I'm near death and I keep going to the doctor, because he is, after all, the authority on health and is going to help me. And he is a digestive disease specialist. So I ask him "can it be something I'm eating or not eating that is causing me so much suffering?" And after telling him exactly what I'm eating, he says "absolutely not, no way."

    So I totally believe him because he is a doctor and knows these things. So I continue to suffer and await the next round of tests he is putting me through, because he is the only one who can tell me how to fix my body and end my suffering. Then I start on chemo because he tells me it is the only way to save my liver and my life. And I believe him. So I start the most expensive agony I've ever felt, because he said I had to do it. And I thought I already was suffering, I had no idea there was worse suffering.

    So 1 1/2 years after first seeing the doctor for help, I go to a chiropractor and he gives me a pamphlet about cfs and food intolerance. And at first I think it is pure rubbish and the stupidest thing I ever heard because my doctor was a digestive disease specialist and I had been specifically asking him about all the food I was eating. But I'm so desperate I'm ready to try anything, as dumb as it may sound, because I can't stand lying around dying and not trying anything.

    So I stop eating wheat and dairy and start to get some relief. I stop going to my digestive disease specialist (and start saving about $300 per month by not going) and start changing my diet. I avoid any whole grains, which my digestive disease specialist kept insisting I should eat, and eat tons of vegetables. Then I start consulting with Dr. Google and start realizing I'm undernourished and start loading up on nutrients in bottles. Now I can function again and, most importantly, the suffering has ended and I no longer want to kill myself.

    It seems my whole problem was consuming the wrong foods and incomplete absorption and processing of nutrients in the foods I was eating.

    I can't help but wonder if the lack of my doctor's ability to address this issue of nutrient starvation is related to the fact that there are no drugs to address this issue and that supplementation may make we well enough to not have to go to the doctor. When it gets to the point that I'm about to die from nutrient starvation, why is the doctor off the hook? If he doesn't want to help me with it, that's one thing. But his inability to even suggest it as a possible cause for my suffering is unaccetable and unforgivable.

    I can understand the frustration of doctors who prescribe for people and try to tell them to eat better and how the average "American Joe or Jane" refuses to give up their comfort food. But when I am in a completely agonizing state, begging for help and willing to do ANYTHING to feel better, the doctor, who I look to for health, is unwilling to even HINT that supplementation with nutrients may help me. There is something wrong with this. I am eating what I think are healthy meals, I am taking a standard multivitamin, but I am still experiencing nutrient starvation. And malnourishment is the farthest thing from my mind.

    Instead, I lie there in agony, wondering what to do. If I am very lucky, I have a laptop computer and then . . . eventually, I figure it out: I am in a severe state of malnutrition and must avoid certain foods. So I load up on nutrients and then I can function. And now I am very angry at the medical industry because simple things like food intolerance and malnutrition, that will eventually occur to anybody here googling for why they feel so bad, is completely ignored by the medical industry.

    So when people say "doctors are killing us", it's probably not entirely accurate. Alot of it is that they are "letting us die" rather than tell us any simple or unconventional things. BTW, is in coincidence that these unconventional things, like nutrient supplementation, are also unprofitable to the medical industry? I doubt it! If drug companies made money on nutrients, they would be selling and prescribing them.

    But look how profitable it is when people are malnourished! Wow! Why on earth would we teach doctors to recommend supplements?! We can get away without doing it, so we won't! How much of the heart disease, cancer and stroke victims could have been saved by supplementation? We'll never know for obvious reasons. They probably would not have followed diet recommendations, anyway.

    But the "suffering in agony" crowd is willing and they should be allowed to know what will ameliorate their suffering. I have a much different idea of doctors now than I did before I got sick. Because I am finally fixing myself and somebody, a doctor, should have told me how to do it instead of letting me suffer and have to search for it on Dr. Google. Almost 2 years of needless agony and praying for death. I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation from the medical industry and, like with the law, ignorance is no excuse. Just because there's no test for malnourishment doesn't mean they can't recommend nutrition. Is there a test for lack of exercise? No, didn't think so, and they can recommend that.

    karen
  19. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I'm not sure what point Dr. Cheney was making with his statement, since my DVD turned out to be broken and allowed me to watch only a few minutes more of his presentation.

    However, let me tell you what I took from his statement.

    He was talking about drug side effects---drugs that generally work fine but for some people have very negative effects.

    What I was thinking is that while it is possible that some of the people who died did so with no warning, others likely had some feelings of strange symptoms before actually dying.

    In a lot of cases, the symptoms may be "this just doesn't feel right" or "I feel weird."

    Nonetheless, patients who have a gut feeling that something is wrong often continue to take the drug anyway.

    There can be several reasons for this, I would think:

    * Patients don't listen to their bodies and thus do not catch or ignore the signs of feeling bad when taking drugs

    * Patients don't tell their doctors when they feel bad (either because they don't think it's important or because they don't know they can or because they are unable to get through red tape)

    * Doctors do not have enough patient information to guide them to stop taking the drug (because medical records are incomplete due to lack of complete info from patient/system, because doctors are too rushed by constraints of their jobs to really listen and figure out what's going on

    * Doctors are unaware of side effects or other drug problems (either because they haven't studied the drug in detail, because side effects have not yet been found, or because what adverse symptoms are like have not been made clear in literature)

    The way I took the statement was that, in most of these deaths, _nobody_ was to blame.

    Rather, what I at least took away for myself were the following points:

    * Prescription drugs are dangerous. I shouldn't take them unless it's clear that I need them or they are going to have some real benefit to me. I should have a clear idea of what those benefits are going to be before deciding to take the drug.

    * Many drugs are aimed at symptom relief and are not necessary for my survival. Being on these drugs is optional. I thus should decide with my doctor the pros and cons of any drug I take. Especially if s/he does not have time to discuss this, I need to read up on the drugs and decide myself whether taking them is a good idea.

    * I will make an effort to find effective and safe alternatives to drugs, so that I can make the best choices for me based on all the information available. I will not rely on doctors to supply me with every single piece of such information in the universe, since I am aware that they are under time constraints and that (with few exceptions) their lives are not easy ones.

    * I should ask my doctor when s/he first prescribes the drug whether it's okay to stop taking it if I feel bad on it, and whether there's a protocol to follow to withdraw from it if that happens.

    * If I don't think taking a particular drug is a good idea, I should discuss it with my doctor. If the doctor does not make me feel "good inside" about the idea of taking the drug and insists I take it anyway, I should find a new doctor.

    * I need to read up on the drugs that I take so that I know the normal symptoms that they cause, the side effects they cause, and the level of seriousness of the side effects they cause. I should not rely on my doctor to supply this information, since there is a lot of it and doctors' time is limited.

    * i need to monitor my body closely when I'm on a prescription drug to make sure that nothing unexpected or weird is happening.

    * If when I'm taking a drug something weird happens that is not clearly benign based on either a) my intellectual knowledge about the drug or b) my gut feeling, and (for whatever reason) I can't resolve the situation to my own complete satisfaction through my own research, I should either contact my doctor right away or (if we determined upfront whether it was okay to do so) stop taking the drug.

    * If during conversations with my doctor s/he does not make me intellectually certain that a particular side effect is okay, or if at a gut level I feel like something isn't right, I should make it clear that I don't feel comfortable with the drug and want to stop it (or lower the dosage or whatever), at least for the time being.

    * If the doctor does not convince me that it's okay to take the drug and insists I do so anyway, I should state firmly that I want to discontinue it and ask him/her whether there is anything I should know about doing so.

    * If my doctor does not seem to be able to provide me with appropriate advice and care when I am having problems with a drug, or if s/he does not seem to understand the drug or my situation with it very well and is disinclined to learn more, I should find a new doctor.

    * If my doctor does not help me get off a drug when it feels wrong for me (e.g. s/he dismisses my concerns or is unavailable), and I am confident that I cannot find another doctor immediately who will understand my situation in order to give me good advice, I will consider discontinuing the drug on my own while I look for a new doctor. I only will discontinue on my own if it is clear that (from my readings and/or my initial conversation with the doctor) that doing so is safe.

    * I will ask my doctor upfront if the full dosage being prescribed is absolutely necessary and if anything bad would happen to me if I took less if the drug ends up seeming too strong. I also should get information from my upfront readings about the therapeutic ranges of the drug. If the drug feels too much for me, I should (if based on my prior "due diligence" it seems acceptable) try a lower dosage and see how that works.

    * In general, I will take the stand that my body belongs to me and that doctors exist to give me advice and assistance with regards to making it feel better or work better. I will remember that I am responsible for my own health, and will get as much information as I can from doctors and other sources to help me make the best possible decisions with regard to taking care of my body.

    * I will keep in mind that my doctor is neither my parent, my jailkeeper, my taskmaster nor my adversary.

    * I will not expect doctors to take care of me like my parents did when I was a child, since I am aware that a) that doctors cannot possibly know as much about me as I do, b) that I have more time and incentive to find out about my particular health problems than doctors possibly can, and c) that they sometimes make mistakes (because they are human and because they unfortunately are pressed for time).

    * I will not automatically "do what the doctor says" if it does not seem or feel right to me, as I would have to if I were in jail.

    * I will not avoid seeing doctors because I am afraid that they will try to make me do things that I don't want to do as I might my taskmaster, and instead will make the effort to see doctors when I know it is appropriate and to work with them to make the best effort possible to reach my own health goals (as determined by me).

    * I will try my best to create a cooperative rather than adversarial working relationship with my doctors, so that they feel good about working with me and thus are more likely to end up helping me to get my health to the point where it is as good as it can be.

    I don't know if this approach is right for others.

    I do know that when I've used it in the past, my experiences with regard to improving my short-term and long-term well-being has been pretty good.

    Now--after having been prompted to think this through due to Dr. Cheney's remark---I am going to be even more conscious of doing these things in the future.


    [This Message was Edited on 01/20/2007]
  20. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Yes! I agree with you 100%, Lisa. I think that was exactly the point Dr. Cheney was trying to make.

    Forebearance