How to induce more slow wave sleep?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by shenwood, May 24, 2003.

  1. shenwood

    shenwood New Member

    Aside from using sodium oxybate, what meds & methods will increase the amount of time spent in slow wave sleep? How do Sonota & Ambien affect sleep architecture? I heard Kava Kava might help, but the FDA issued a warning about related liver problems with Kava.
  2. tansy

    tansy New Member

    When ambien works it gives me about 5 hours of sleep but I know it's not helping with stage 4. Also I frequently wake during this time but do go back to sleep easily.

    Used to take trazedone, first on it's own then with the ambien, that was better. Problem was trazedone slowed my brain further during day and I had to stop using it.

    Had been taking valerian with it, helped too but not enough.

    Now use ZMA with the ambien, again helps but not enough

    Friend brought me round a bit of cannabis yesterday, told me how to use it orally. Been thinking about it for a while so took the plunge.

    Had small amount of very pure but mild (so I was told) amount with little bit of food. Felt a little bit nauseous (stomach not balance) but that soon wore off. Mild but pleasant effects before going to bed, not stoned. Took ambien and had better night's sleep than I've had for several months now. Did feel it was deeper so perhaps had some time in stage 4.

    I currently have a virus, high temp, bad head etc so cannot tell how therapeutic it is in other areas. Still unwell generally today but no bad effects from the cannabis.



    ps realised just after writing this I had a carbs craving, realised it was like the munchies my frineds have after smoking cannabis. Had an omlette and salad, sorted. So there was just a small next day side effect.
    [This Message was Edited on 05/25/2003]
    [This Message was Edited on 05/25/2003]
  3. nancyneptune

    nancyneptune New Member

    even know about sodium oxybate! What is that? I had Sonata for awhile it didn't help a bit. All hypnotics, (sleeping pills) interfere with stage 4 sleep. You won't be getting any with that stuff. I wish I knew how to get even an hour of stage 4. When I had my sleep study done the results said I got 0% stage 4, 37% REM and the rest was stage 1! No wonder I don't bother going to bed at night. Doesn't serve any purpose anyway. N
  4. shenwood

    shenwood New Member

    Sodium oxybate was mentioned in the most recent newsletter; I copied the article and it is included in this post below. Does anyone know if this drug is relatively free of adverse side effects? What's it normally used for?

    Research: The Effects of Sodium Oxybate on Clinical Symptoms and Sleep Patterns in Patients with Fibromyalgia



    Objective. Fibromyalgia (FM) is associated with the sleep phenomenon of alpha intrusion, and with low growth hormone secretion. Sodium oxybate has been shown to increase both slow-wave sleep and growth hormone levels. This double blind, randomized, placebo controlled crossover trial was conducted to evaluate the effects of sodium oxybate on the subjective symptoms of pain, fatigue, and sleep quality and the objective polysomnographic (PSG) sleep variables of alpha intrusion, slow-wave (stage 3/4) sleep, and sleep efficiency in patients with FM.

    Methods. Patients received either 6.0 g/day sodium oxybate or placebo for 1 month, with an intervening 2 week washout period. Efficacy measures included PSG evaluations, tender point index (TPI), and subjective measurements from daily diary entries. Safety measures included clinical laboratory values, vital signs, and adverse events.

    Results. Twenty-four female patients were included in the study; 18 completed the trial. TPI was decreased from baseline by 8.5, compared with an increase of 0.4 for placebo (p = 0.0079). Six of the 7 pain/fatigue scores (overall pain, pain at rest, pain during movement, end of day fatigue, overall fatigue, and morning fatigue) were relieved by 29% to 33% with sodium oxybate, compared with 6% to 10% relief with placebo (p < 0.005). Alpha intrusion, sleep latency, and rapid-eye-movement sleep were significantly decreased, while slow-wave (stage 3/4) sleep was significantly increased, compared with placebo (p < 0.005).

    Two of the 5 subjective sleep related variables were significantly different from placebo: morning alertness (improved by 18% with sodium oxybate, compared with 2% for placebo; p = 0.0033) and quality of sleep (improved by 33% and 10%, respectively; p = 0.0003).

    Conclusion. Sodium oxybate effectively reduced the symptoms of pain and fatigue in patients with FM, and dramatically reduced the sleep abnormalities (alpha intrusion and decreased slow-wave sleep) associated with the nonrestorative sleep characteristic of this disorder. (J Rheumatol 2003;30:1070-4)

    From the Tri-State Sleep Disorders Center, Cincinnati, Ohio, USA. M.B. Scharf, PhD; M. Baumann, RN; D.V. Berkowitz, MD. Address reprint requests to Dr. M.B. Scharf, The Tri-State Sleep Disorders Center, 1275 East Kemper Road, Cincinnati, OH 45246.

  5. Shirl

    Shirl New Member

    Below is all the information that is available (that I could find) on this drug, but it sure sounds serious! The brand name is 'Xyrem'. Quite a controlled drug.

    Shalom, Shirl

    [Taken from 'Medscape']

    New Search

    Drug Class
    Uses & Dosage
    &#8226; Uses
    &#8226; Dosage and Administration
    Adverse Effects
    Drug Interactions
    Overdose & Toxicity
    Pharmacology & Chemistry
    Patient Handout

    Uses & Dosage
    Uses from First Databank

    Labeled Uses

    Cataplexy with associated Narcolepsy

    Unlabeled Uses

    Uses from AHFS DI&#8482;

    Cataplexy and Associated Narcolepsy
    Sodium oxybate is used in the treatment of cataplexy in patients with narcolepsy.Approximately 80% of patients enrolled in clinical studies that evaluated safety and efficacy of sodium oxybate were receiving a CNS stimulant concomitantly.Dosage and Administration from AHFS DI&#8482;

    Sodium oxybate is administered in 2 equally divided doses. Because food reduces bioavailability of sodium oxybate, the drug should be administered several hours after eating.Variability in the timing of drug administration in relation to meals should be minimized.The first dose of sodium oxybate is taken at bedtime (while in bed), and the second dose is taken 2.5&#8211;4 hours later (while sitting in bed). Both doses should be prepared before bedtime.Each dose of sodium oxybate must be diluted with 60 mL of water in the child-resistant dosing cup provided by the manufacturer.The patient will probably need to set an alarm clock to awaken for the second dose; the second dose should be placed in close proximity to the patient&#8217;s bed.The patient should lie down and remain in bed after each dose of sodium oxybate.


    Restricted Distribution Program
    Sodium oxybate, also called &#947;-hydroxybutyrate (GHB), is a known drug of abuse.Recreational use of this drug has been associated with a number of serious adverse CNS effects including seizures, respiratory depression, profound decreases in the level of consciousness, coma, and death. Because of these events, commercially available sodium oxybate is prescribed and distributed under a restricted distribution program (the Xyrem Success ProgramĀ®).The goals of the program are to restrict access to sodium oxybate and to educate physicians and patients about the risks and benefits of the drug.In accordance with the goals of this program, sodium oxybate can be prescribed only by physicians who have contacted the program and agree to certain procedural, patient-education, and adverse-event-reporting responsibilities.One central pharmacy will distribute sodium oxybate directly to the patients after confirming that the patients have read the educational materials provided by the pharmacy.

    [This Message was Edited on 05/25/2003]
  6. JaciBart

    JaciBart Member

    I have been posting quite a bit on this drug, you might want to look it up here and also on google. It is too early for me to tell yet how much it is helping me as I am to increase it by 1 pill every week, in a few weeks I will know more, it really does sound promising to me.
    I have high hopes for it, very high.

  7. shenwood

    shenwood New Member

    I can't believe Xyrem is actually GHB! I used to take it when it was legal and it really does give you a restful deep sleep. Is it true that unless you have narcolepsy, you can't get a prescription for it? Does your doctor have to certify that you have narcolepsy?
  8. shenwood

    shenwood New Member

    Is Gabitril the product name for Neurontin?
  9. shenwood

    shenwood New Member

    Does any know of any studies which demonstrate how this drug affects time spent in stage 1,2,3, and 4 of sleep?
  10. zggygirl

    zggygirl New Member

    Ambian was not on a list that was posted by Jellybelly titled "drugs the disturb stage 4 sleep". I think I have also read else where that it does not.
    You could search for it here "disturb stage 4 sleep"
    Xanax is another that is not supposed to.
    I've been wondering is stage 4 the sleep with dreams?
  11. Achy-shaky

    Achy-shaky New Member

    I'd hate to mess around with the date-rape drug...kind of scary but guess if it's the right dosage it may work for some. I tried Ambien and didn't sleep longer than 5 hrs. either. I have also heard that Ambien is supposed to help with stage 3-4 sleep but not sure about that. One thing that helped me sleep longer/better was stopping the NSAIDs which are known for interrupting stage 3-4 sleep. Neurontin also helps me sleep.

    Ziggy - dreams are part of stage 5 or REM sleep, which some of us have hard time getting to also.

    I know the sleep problem has a big affect on how I feel and really wish someone would figure out what works.

    Hoping you all have a good nights sleep.
  12. smilemona

    smilemona New Member

    Recently there was a special on Dateline (I think) about how addictive GHB is. One man started taking it, as found in a nutritional supplement, when he was weightlifting. As he took it more and more regularly, he became addicted and completely zoned out of his life.Eventually his family fell apart and he wound up in jail.

    Perhaps you can learn more about this story on Dateline's website.
  13. donna13210

    donna13210 Member

    It was so scary! That man was having convulsions on a regular basis, his arms and legs flailing around, his tongue hanging out, his head flipping side to side, it was awful!! And he would do this for hours! (or until he passed out, anyway).

    After that show, I REALLY don't want to get near the stuff!!
  14. sofy

    sofy New Member

    I wasnt troubled by the dateline story. You can pick any restricted drug and find a story of someone who abuses it for non medical reasons and has a horror story to tell. Look at how many of us use big time pain meds but we dont have anything to say except it relieves the pain.
    Many of the drugs we use can kill off your liver, kidneys etc but it doesnt make near as nice a story cuz that is just a side effect of a legal drug to make you well.
    Dont let the medias desire for sensationalism stop you from getting the meds that could cure what ails you.
  15. zggygirl

    zggygirl New Member

    Thanks Achy for clearing up my question about dreams.
    One day I was taking Ultram and ativan and Neurontin.
    Then last 2 I always take. Anyway I was so tired and when I tried to nap I went form being awake, but relaxed then sinking way down right into dreams. This back and forth process kept happening. I can't say whether it was good sleep I had to get up when I could have stayed there for hours! Kind of weird though pleasent. The sleep thing/stages fascinates me. I am dreaming a lot more lately and I'm not sure why.

    Ralph, thanks for the site info on natural ways. Though I feel like I have tried everything under the sun or should I say stars, I will have to check it out!