Ian, Jam.....new vit E research

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia and ME & Chronic Fatigue Syndrome' started by freida, Jan 30, 2014.

  1. freida

    freida Active Member

    HI all,

    It is not entirely a new concept,

    However, i wondered ..... what Ian,
    And Jam, and any others of you,

    Think of the latest reports, ? .........

    That vit e, even at only 400mg daily,
    And other powerful anti-oxidents like beta-carotene,
    MIGHT actually be bad for people, who have lung cancer,
    or high risk for lung cancer ,or early stage lung cancer,
    Due to the persons body might not start fighting the cancer,
    So the cancer may progress more rapidly.

    There was a plausible reason given,
    That the body needs to be alerted to the need to start fighting it,
    Which is delayed by the presence of the supplemented vit E.

    I understand a lot of reasons why these studies cannot be totally relied on,

    But i would like to know what you each think,
    Of yet another newish take,
    On why supplementing with even moderate dose of something so healthful,
    May be harmful......

    Vit e, i have thought of as so helpful,
    Both as antioxident,
    And also a safer alternative than daily aspirin, or script anti-coagulents,
    And to bolster our immune system, rather than to trick our immune system into staying shut down,
    As this latest study implies.


    Your thoughts???????

    Leah
  2. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Member

    Leah, do you have a link to this research? I know that with beta-carotene they discovered that in smokers it actually increases the risk of cancer, not decrease the risk.
  3. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    400mg vitamin E????? I think you might mean 400iu which is a moderate dose but still higher than you would normally get from food.

    The problem with vitamin E research is that it has used one form: alpha tocopherol acetate. There are many different tocopherols in nature and it may be that they interact. In addition research using a single supplement like this is very risky anyway.

    Secondly the study on prostate cancer and the group which took the vitamin E showed a slight increase in prostate cancer increase. Whether this is significant or not is controversial. They still have not shown whether vitamin E deficiency is associated with the cancer. Also the difference between prevention in people without cancer and treatment to reduce cancer in those who already have the pathology (pre-cancer) is significant but not controlled for.

    The study on lung cancer was also "muddy". There is no reduction in risk in smokers and possibly increased risk especially if you drink alcohol as well. That is "in smokers" There is no reliable study which reports that vitamin E or b-carotene increases risk of lung cancer.

    Recently vitamin E has been shown to reduce plaque formation in AD.

    I cannot see a rationale for taking extra vitamin E in ME. Much better to take other antioxidants which are known to help oxidative stress and mitochondrial function. If you do want to take vitamin E then get a mixed tocopherol preparation.
  4. freida

    freida Active Member

    Thank you so much, for all the good info, and your perspectives, Ian.

    Yes, i meant I.U, , not mg.

    I thought 400 was a small maintenance dose, to simply bolster health.

    I knew there are diff forms, and did not find a good source for a balanced mix.

    I am not a smoker, btw, i was interested , both for others who are smokers, and because of the general concept,
    That if we take something to help us, we could possibly be slowing the bodys natural processes of self healing.

    Which anti oxidents do you favor, Ian?

    Hi, tigerlilea, good to see you!

    I dont know the link But it was this week on a mainstream news site.
    One could probsbly look at medical news, or Google For it.
    I think it was done in england. It was Specifically about smokers, and precancers and lung cancers,
    Though has some other implications.

    Ian says it was "muddy" which many studies are......and always questions in exactly How studies are done, some of which ian mentioned....they use one form....there are other Variables, that always influence results....and often not done with humans....duh.

    Still, we try to stay informed and learn.

    Difficult to sort out when a study results are meaningful.

    Leah
  5. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Member

    Thanks, Diane. Someone else posted this on a FB group I belong to. I read the research and wasn't too impressed. They gave mice 4 to 50 times the recommended daily dose of Vitamin E. Also they supplemented with NAC so how can they determine that it was the Vitamin E that was the problem???
  6. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    I've been using the 400IU Now Foods d-alpha tocopheryl succinate, and usually take 1 cap every other day...I can't speak on the lung cancer connection...I lean MOST of my protection on my great grape seed extract....now over 18 yrs taking it.

    We have a "maverick" out of the box thinking MD here who has been referred to as the Vit E King and he's given higher doses of Vit E to some of his patients over the years.....a lot for arthritis....I never went with his suggestions....I've never seen him but know him and he was with a group of docs I've seen over the years....all integrative MD's....his name is Dr. Murray Susser if you want to check his work....jam
  7. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    Firstly 400iu vitamin E is over 1000% daily requirement (not that daily requirement is much to go by) so it is a substantial "dose".

    Supplemental anti-oxidants:
    I go with :
    glutathione, ascorbic acid, CoEnzyme Q10, alpha lipoic acid.

    However most beneficial antioxidants come from the diet. Lots of purple and red and the green leafy vegetables.
  8. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    Further to the Swedish study; I am always suspicious of study authors who say things like this:
    "it adds to a growing pile of research challenging the health benefits of taking vitamin supplements except in cases of malnutrition."

    There isn't a "growing pile of research". There is more research saying, in specific pathologies that supplemental nutrients play an important part in the management of the disease, even aside from deficiency. Also there is a huge pile of evidence that many drugs are very detrimental to health are over prescribed and wrongly prescribed. For example giving antidepressants to teenagers who are having problems in life: result: suicide. We have just a good example of something close to home where young people with ME are diagnosed/re-diagnosed with depression and of course given antidepressants AND when they don't respond to the treatment they are "treatment resistant depressives".

    Similarly:

    "It's unfortunate that the public has the idea that vitamin supplements are good and antioxidants are better."

    These very biased statements in relation to a study on mice and in vitro human lungs cells using vitamin E and NAC show you how bad the thinking is. The message they are giving is "Don't take any supplements, they are bad for you and might even kill you" What nonesense.

    While we need to be careful and thoughtful and read as much research as possible about nutritional supplements and don't accept rubbish science, we don't need this exaggerated nonesense from such people who are totally anti self treatment and very anti so-called "complementary medicine".

    This particular study is telling us to be careful about vitamin E when we might have lung cancer. (there is no conclusion about NAC even though it was used in the study). There is something to study further here, that some anti-oxidants might protect tumor cells from apoptosis. But extending that to supplements may increase mortality is garbage.
  9. freida

    freida Active Member

    Thank you so very much, Ian, for all of that.
    It is very good info , and I do agree.

    I appreciate your time and effort in writing it all out, Ian.

    Thanks also for everyone else's responses, input and ideas.

    Leah