Ian.....what's your thoughts on this

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia and ME & Chronic Fatigue Syndrome' started by sunflowergirl, Jan 10, 2013.

  1. sunflowergirl

    sunflowergirl Active Member

    I was at my doctor today. She said I SHOULD get a flu shot but I told her about problems those of us with compromised immune systems have. She said that's the VERY reason we should get them, and said I should get a flu shot that is thimerisol free. Apparently this is the mercury used in it.
  2. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    I know some PMWE who have reacted badly (in the short term, like a week at the most) to the shots and others who did not. The ones who reacted badly all had MCS quite severely. I also know some (including myself and my daughter who react very badly to the flu). If I wasn't holed up in my office and had to mix with people more I would get one. When I travel I wear a mask but if there was a significant epidemic here like you have in the US at the moment I would get the shot.

    Your Dr. is right though, if you have ME/CFS you want to avoid any viral infections that tax your immune system. I know some people on the internet have reported having a mild time with the flu or having never had it since getting ME/CFS. I have no explanation, you would not expect that, ME/CFS will not render you immune, in fact all the evidence points to some immune deficiencies like low natural killer cell function. The flu is a funny thing, if you get infected by attenuated virus (from someone in the later stage of flu) you will have a mild infection whereas someone else, who got the full blown virus will have a severe infection.

    Also there is little evidence that anything you take to prevent you getting the flu will work - aside from the vaccination(attenuated virus).
    [This Message was Edited on 01/10/2013]
  3. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    and haven't for 25 some yrs.

    It's hard for me to want to inject these in my body:

    Egg proteins: Including avian contaminant viruses
    Formaldehyde: Known carcinogen
    Thimerosal: Mercury-based preservative (only in multi-dose vials)
    Other heavy metals such as aluminum: Known neurotoxin
    Sugar: The essence of all inflammatory disease
    Triton X100: A detergent
    Other additives known to cause allergic reactions

    When can't the genius's at Pharma produce a vaccine free of these toxins....

    It's a personal decision, of course, but my decision is to keep healthy and keep a stash of Oscillo on hand during flu season.
  4. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    I've been tempted to get the pneumonia and flu vaccinations but I don't do it. I used to get a horrible reaction to flu shots so stopped them years ago. It's my own immune system's inflammation response to the shots which makes me so sick. There is a big outbreak of the flu this year and I'm tempted but still don't think I'll do it. My doc recommends it but insists that I should get the pneumonia shot. My neighbor has pneumonia as we speak. I don't think I'll get that either.

    My peptide shots have altered the balance of my immune system. I never got colds before and I have had two in the last year. Am I more inclined to get the flu or pneumonia? I don't know but I still don't think I'll get the vaccines. I've had pneumonia and lived through it so guess I'll live through it again if I get it. Same with the flu.

    Love, Mikie
  5. sunflowergirl

    sunflowergirl Active Member

    does NOT cover the flu that's going around california. What's the purpose of a shot since it's not for every strain?

    I've been sick for 3 weeks. About 4 days ago I thought I was starting to get well and then I got a sore throat and drippy nose all over again and the fatigue is AWFUL. And I've coughed for 3 weeks!
  6. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    and I just got a report about a study going on in Germany that vaccinated children are 5 times more disease prone than unvaccinated children.....and autisum is very low in the unvaccinated children.

    Again, get the immune system strong, and for me Echineaca is always handy if I feel something coming on...there are so many powerful antioxidants today and these are the answer...I see PH has a special on a Ultra Antioxidant.....will have to look at it and see what's in it.

    Sun, maybe check out that cough, hope it's nothing really serious...my grandkids dad coughed for years and ignored it and now dealing with stage 3 inoperable lung cancer.....not saying that's you, but maybe going deeper with the cough issue.

    Talking to my gf who says she coughs a lot and smoked 25 yrs but hasn't smoked for 25 yrs, so who knows about the chest and lungs....and if any damage is going on. [This Message was Edited on 01/11/2013]
  7. sunflowergirl

    sunflowergirl Active Member

    elderberry (it's a immune support)and it's got astralagus and echanacea in it also and the GSE. I'm also using sinus rinse kit. My head feels so clogged up. It's like a bad head cold for 3 weeks. I've even been using steam with some eucalyptus oil in it.

    I've got some asthma but lungs are clear. I think it just hangs on to us "unhealthy" ones. And surprisingly, I never ever ran a fever.

    I'm sorry about your Ex........A friend of mine just lost a neice by marriage to lung cancer. She was only 40 and never smoked. She battled it for about 18 mos. at City of Hope and at home. Poor girl! And she left two young daughters. Her memorial service is tomorrow.

    And has your friend had chest xrays or MRI? What does her doctor say?
  8. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    must not take it too seriously....I know NOW if I had a chronic cough for a long time, I'd get checked out. I've told her about the sil and maybe she is getting the light...she's one I can't tell what to do....

    Can't help but think if kids dad had gone to a doc years ago, he wouldn't be in the mess he's in now....my daughter said he coughed all their married years....but this guy would not go to docs....you know I'm not a great fan of docs, but there are times when one must get checked out.

    Sun, I hope you feel better soon, are you upping the grape seed, I take 600mg daily, 200mg three times a day....and especially with the colder weather....

    Since this cold snap we've had I've had a more looser nose mucous than ever in years....so the weather does not help.
    [This Message was Edited on 01/11/2013]
  9. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    this morning:

    The flu has peaked in many states, since it was such an early flu season and that CA was NOT hard hit...

    What is the truth, who knows....
  10. freida

    freida Active Member

    ...and Ian...

    Yes, we have major outbreaks here....
    and I do have pretty significant MCS, as well as other severe conditions.
    I do get the flu shot, now, in recent years...even though I don't like the idea, and it frightens me,
    but I have done okay with it,
    and I am personally just as frightened of the flu and complications, added to my miseries of my other illnesses.
    At this point, I think I do better with the shot than I would with the full-blown flu.

    FOr myself, it was a difficult decision, but I feel the right one.

    Even though, the shot is not effective all the time,
    AND it is surely not effective against all strains of flu viruses,
    but it lowers the chances of some of the common strains.
    I don't usually guess and "gamble" with my health,
    but this time, I choose my guess that I have less risk from the shot than from none.
    Especially if I had to go to the hospital or dr office, for some other reason.

    MY decision for myself.

    Just adding to the ideas, not contradicting anyone.

    I am leary of putting things in my body too, especially shots.
    A person has to guess what is best for oneself, and what , and which risks, one is reasonably comfortable with, or not.

    I refuse many dr recommendations that I am not comfortable with.

    I didn't take the shot from pressure. I decided to weigh my own risks, and decide for myself, and so far, so good, for me.

    Hope everyone feels okay about their own decisions.

    This is not an easy one, IMO.


  11. neoplus1

    neoplus1 Member

    It is interesting you bring up individuals not getting sick with things like a cold or flu since the onset of ME/CFS. I have wondered why that is as I am one of those people. I don't get the flu normally and I rarely get colds anyway, but since having CFS, it seems as if I catch NOTHING. I know some immune deficiencies exist in CFS, but there is evidence of elevated cytokines and other things. Perhaps despite lower certain functions, there is some priming and up-regulation that is stuck. It would make sense considering people get this as a post-infectious illness. Perhaps some of the immune system didn't switch all the way back to baseline?

    I don't get the flu, so I don't get the flu shot. BUT I wouldn't avoid it for the sake of CFS if there is real risk that you could get the full blown flu. As far as vaccines being so dangerous which you hear about on tv and the news, I don't buy into that hype. There just isn't any evidence. The fact that there are some rare risks doesn't mean anything. Everything has some risk, including the supplements many of us swear by. If Ambligen were approved there would be just as much risk involved or worse.

    I actually can't believe how bad this flu season is turning out to be. Please everyone be safe and take care of yourselves.

  12. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    You are correct in saying that various cytokines are upregulated. Some of these such as IFN-alpha and IFN-gamma are also upregulated in the lungs and bronchiols during a viral respiratory infection. No one knows if an upregulation of these will render you immune to the flu. Somehow I doubt it. If they are down regulated you may have less symptoms but a long flu. The symptoms are not caused by the virus but by your bodies fight against the virus. The greater the symptoms the bigger the fight.

    Humans and higher primates contain “natural antibodies” which are present in serum before viral infection. Natural antibodies can activate the classical complement pathway leading to lysis of enveloped virus particles long before the adaptive immune response is activated. You will have some of these antibodies to some of the viruses. If you are not getting the flu, but are exposed to virulent virus then it will be the antibodies that are preventing you from getting it. These are not affected or increased by ME/CFS. In fact, in some PWME the function of the system is impaired when the natural killer cells are impaired.

    However consider what the vaccination of attenuated virus actually does to render you "immune" (actually about 60%-70% because viral strains can vary or change quite quickly). It causes new antibodies to the virus to be created. This is the second line defence against infection. (aka the adaptive immune system)

    If you got the flu and you already had upregulated IFN's then you will have even worse symptoms and very low energy which could continue for longer than someone who had normal levels of IFN's.

    So, according to current knowledge the explanation of why you do not get the flu is:
    You have natural antibodies to the strain
    You have been exposed to naturally attenuated virus
    You were exposed to the virus but it did not enter your lungs

    Someone had a theory that if you had a virus infection such as a cold, you would not get the flu, but that has been disproved.

    What else is going on? There is some evidence (from the University of Michigan) that levels of antioxidants affect the response to infection, not the infection itself. Now! maybe PWME have high levels of antioxidants as part of their treatment for ME/CFS.
  13. freida

    freida Active Member

    Steve, thanks for your interesting ideas, and nice to meet you.

    Ian and Steve, that is all very interesting. Thanks for the input.

    Sunflower, and other MCSers, or others who want to know,
    I forgot to say that I always do ask for, and I do get,
    the flu shot that is in the single-dose vial that is themerosal -free,so no preservative, NO mercury.
    I feel better about it, and have found with a few phone calls, it is pretty available.
    If I wasn't able to get it preservative-free, I would personally probably still get the flu shot. I understand the amount of mercury in the preservative for one dose, is far less than the amount of mercury in a tuna sandwich, which I do not eat, but IF I wanted one, I would feel okay about having a tuna sandwich, once or twice a year. :)

    I would NOT get the nasal spray flu vaccine, because that is a live vaccine, not recommended for anyone with possibly comprimised immune function.

    To answer your question, Sunflower, they don't put all of the flu virus strains in the flu shot vaccine,
    because there are too many, and it takes some time to make the vaccine,
    so they need to decide which ones are most likely to be prevalent NEXT flu season, quite a while beforehand, ahead of time, to start making it, in order to have it ready in time for the next season.

    Some years, their educated guesses are better or worse.
    This year's is actually a pretty good match, containing ones that are prevalent this year.
    But they didn't know they should have included that one other strain, and perhaps it has become more prevalent partly due to that reason, that no one received a vaccine for that strain.

    Anyway, for myself, I prefer to at least lower my chances of getting, at least some of those flu's, even though it isn't 100% prevented , and does not cover all of them.

    Hope that answers some of your questions, and that you feel okay about whatever decision you make.

    We have to guess about so many things...gather info, ask questions, and decide what fits for our own bodies, illnesses and conditions, and each of our own beliefs, the most possible.
    Then, try not to worry. ;)

    Oh, I do get a pain reaction, for some time after my flu shot...either type of flu shot (I had the preservative one from the 10-dose vials a few times in past years, and since then have had the non-mercury ones) ....from the muscles and nerves, radiating from the muscle that gets the shot, so I do plan which arm I want to sleep on for a while after it. I don't get other problems from it, and to me, it's hard but worth that.
    I worry less, having had the flu shot. If one worries more after having it, it may not be worth it.


    [This Message was Edited on 01/12/2013]
  14. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    Dr. Oz last night, and I posted about it in the other flu post going now, the vaccine is so safe....

    Oz has never been a favorite of mine, but whatever works for others and what they want to do is their choice...

    I prefer the immune system being strengthened and all my supps....and so far so good....and I'm not out in the world being stressed and exposed to so many.....I'll be with my bridge ladies today, 8 of us and don't feel worried about the exposure....it's the movie theatre and crowds and I don't do them anyway. jam
  15. kbak

    kbak Member

    My daughter is a cardiac nurse in a hospital, and she was just telling me today that 90% of the people coming in to be hospitalized for the flu had the flu shot. So it's really up to you weather you want the shot. The bug causing the nasty flu is not in the shot.

    They want you to get the shot hoping that it might be of some help. So it's up to you.
    take care,
  16. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    those being hospitalized for flu, had the flu shot...ummmm

    I was with 7 ladies yesterday for bridge, we meet 2 saturdays a month and no one has had the flu and no colds that i could detect...

    Out of the 8 of us 5 are taking grape seed ex....

    So what a lot of your info says, all those people coming in hospital have weak immune systems....that's my thought anyway.

    Now we're in So. Cal, and perhaps it's not been as bad here...

    Bottom line, get that immune system strong.

    [This Message was Edited on 01/13/2013]