Immune problems - seasonal viruses are a killer!

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia and ME & Chronic Fatigue Syndrome' started by Spinney Lainey, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. Hi, I was wondering what supplements people have found genuinely help with their immune system. My CFS gets so much worse in the Autumn to the extent that I'm in a wheelchair a lot of the time. I already take vitamin C, D and E, plus beta glucans for immune support, plus others for energy.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  2. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    I am not exactly sure about your question which is preheaded by "viruses are a killer". there is no doubt that the immune system is significantly involved in ME/CFS but there is no evidence that any viruses are causing the disease. It is known that various virus titres(amounts) are increased as a result of the disease.

    If you know you have increased viral titres then it depends on which ones and these would need to identified by a proper lab test. There is plenty of information on the internet and on PH about which viruses have been found to be associated with ME/CFS. A general support of the immune system will probably do little to remove them.

    Are you in wheelchair because exhaustion occurs when you walk?. If this is the case then your muscular strength is too low. Secondly if you persist in trying to walk under these circumstances do you then get pain or just more exhausion? If you start getting pain then is likely due to impaired lactate removal. I doubt this has much to do with viruses but more to do with mitochondrial function and glutathione depletion in your nerves and muscles.

    The supplements you mention are important but will do very little for your energy problem.
    The following will help this, they are well tried for ME/CFS :

    vitamin D3 5000IU daily
    magnesium citrate or glycinate 400mg daily
    vitamin B12 sublingual lozenge 1000mcg twice daily for two months then drop to 1000mcg daily.
    read up on folates these may be required depending on your diet. I would recommend methyltetrahydrofolate 400mcg twice daily for two months then drop to 400mcg daily. (If you have any form of cancer then you must consult your doctor before taking folates, otherwise they are safe)
    glutathione (you can either get sublingual lozenges or just take a high dose, such as 500mg once daily and put under your tongue and hold in your mouth for as long as possible before swallowing. It tastes terrible but does get into your system this way) We find that 500mg doses taken this way is very effective indeed.

    If you want to go further then the following will help too:
    vitamin PQQ (pyrollequinolinequinone) this induces mitochondrial production in cells and improves their function
    NAC (N-acetyl cysteine) especially if you don't take the glutathione.
    replace half of your sodium chloride with potassium chloride or take some potassium glycinate or gluconate (99mg twice daily)
    zinc 25 mg daily

    Some people have digestive tract problems with their ME/CFS and this must be corrected otherwise it can drain your energy and cause other symptoms. In which case the following help to rid you of this problem:

    bovine colostrum: 1 teaspoon twice daily
    probiotic 10 strains

    There are many other supplements that can help but these are the well tested basics.
    Of course many of these, if not all, support immune function.
  3. Thanks for your reply. What I meant was that seasonal viruses make my CFS symptoms and exhaustion much worse! Therefore, I'm looking for ideas to help with immune support. Yes, I am in a wheelchair due to exhaustion and muscle weakness but I don't have any pain. I already take supplements for energy support.
  4. mbofov

    mbofov Member

    A product called Moducare has helped my immune system a lot. It's a combination of plant sterols and sterolins. It's the first thing I have found that truly has boosted my immune system. I had tried a supplement which only had plant sterols a few years ago and it did nothing for me. You can buy Moducare on-line lots of places, would probably be pretty pricey in your local health food store. (and I tried tons of different herbs and supplements to help, and Moducare is the only one to make a real difference)

    Also make sure your vitamin D levels are optimal. Also my doctor told me that vitamin A from fish oil (not beta carotene) is essential for the immune system and to take extra when sick.

    Have you had your adrenals checked? When mine were wiped out I was weak as a kitten and I could very well have ended up in a wheel chair. My chiropractor who does muscle testing found my weak adrenals and gave me Drenatrophin PMG by Standard Process. I had to take 3 or 4 times the recommended dose, but within a couple of days my energy started to come back. I had to take it for a couple of months. Many doctors don't "believe" in weak adrenals - it's absurd - it's very very real. I strongly recommend finding a chiro who does this. Customer service at the Standard Process website can give you the names of practitioners in your area who use their products. Pantothenic acid is crucial for adrenal health so a good B complex and extra pantothenic acid may be needed. There's lots of info available about helping the adrenals.

    My chiro also helped me with several different digestive issues, and with a much-needed liver detox, a host of different problems which the regular docs were helpless with.

    Folate (not folic acid) also helped my energy pick up. A very large percentage of people have difficulty converting folic acid, which is a synthetic form of folate, into a form useable by the body. Folic acid can actually cause a folate deficiency as it competes for absorption with folate. Ian recommends a good form above. It can go by another name - Metafolin (trade name) - Solgar makes a good one. I started taking 800 mcg. of metafolin about 2-1/2 years ago and hard a marked increase in energy within a couple of days, which was fabulous. And then after 2 or 3 days hit a brick wall - felt really awful, tired, lethargic, etc., and turns out that was my potassium levels tanking. The increased folate had caused cells to start to heal etc. which increased my need for potassium. This was crucial. If I had not known this, I would have stopped the folate, thinking it was making me feel bad. I added in potassium citrate initially, but it was hard on my urinary tract system, so switched to potassium gluconate which I tolerate just fine, and now take 400 mg. a day regularly.

    I also take 5,000 mcg. sublingual methylcobalamin daily, and a ton of other supplements.

    So these are some things you might want to look into, but I strongly recommend getting your adrenals checked out. Another woman had been bedridden for some 10 years until she discovered her adrenal problem.

    Good luck -

    Mary
  5. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    OK, I misunderstood.
    If your allergic responses in Autumn are affecting your fatigue then the most important thing to do is MODULATE your immune response not boost your immune response.
    The most effective supplement to do this is vitamin D3 5000IU to 10,000IU
    Look up vitamin D wiki and read up on the following
    Seasonal affective disorder
    Allergic Rhinitis
    Respiratory infections.

    If you are talking about influenza and colds then the combination of vitamin C and vitamin D are reasonably effective.

    While vitamin A is important for immune function NEVER take more than 3000IU daily as it is toxic above that level and will reduce the conversion of your vitamin D to its active components 1,25-dihydroxyvitaminD and 24,25-dihydroxyvitaminD.
  6. Yes - it's all about colds etc. I already take vitamin D but not vitamin A - actually, I got my vitamin levels tested but was low in alpha carotene but my nutritionist said she didn't think I needed to bother supplementing it, as my beta carotene level was ok..........maybe worth looking into though...?
    Abdulrahman likes this.
  7. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    I have NOT had a cold, flu, etc. in mega years....I KNOW it's due to taking powerful antioxidant, grape seed extract....and/or pycnogenol or both and recently added resveratrol to take now and then.
    Abdulrahman likes this.
  8. Thanks Mary - some very interesting stuff here! First off - I'm gonna try Moducare - I've found I can buy it in the UK, too :)

    I already take vitamin D and not vitamin A - even though when I tested my vitamin levels - my alpha carotene level was low but nutritionist said not to bother supplementing, as my beta carotene level was OK but the fish oils sound interesting. What kind exactly?

    I already take B vitamins but not pantothenic acid. I wonder how I can find out if I need this...might need to get a blood test.

    I think my folate levels may have been tested and were ok, so am going to look back over my vitamin level tests to check......

    What is methylcobalamin for? Did you find out from muscle testing that you needed to use this?

    It's particuarly interesting that you've talked about doing a liver detox and adrenal problems - as these are two things I'm thinking about looking into at the moment.......I had my adrenals tested back in 2009 and my cortisol was slightly low at noon and before sleep. So I plan to get them tested again. As for the liver detox - how did you go about this? I was looking into doing a liver flush: http://www.amazon.com/The-Amazing-Liver-Gallbladder-Flush/dp/0976571501 but have come to the conclusion it would probably be too taxing on my system, also Dr Moritz, who wrote the book says it's not a good idea to do this if you take pharmaceutical drugs.....

    I live in the UK and don't think chiropractors over here cover these things unfortunately but will have to try and find a suitable private doctor who covers some of this stuff.

    Edit: just seen your post in my thread about liver/gallbladder flushes.......
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  9. mbofov

    mbofov Member

    Hi Spinney - I'm glad you can get the Moducare in the UK! I hope it helps.

    Re the vitamin A - it says on the bottle that it's from fish liver oil, instead of beta carotene. So you just have to read the label and find one from fish liver oil.

    Re folate levels - I found out I needed folate in two different ways. I don't know if blood tests in the UK are the equivalent of what we have here, but this is what I found here. Most doctors here do a CBC (complete blood count) once a year and one of the things measured is MCV - mean corpuscular volume. If this number is high, it indicates a B12 AND/OR folate deficiency. My number for many years was in the "normal" range, but just about at the top of the normal range so no doctor ever pointed out I might have a problem. Finally one doctor did mention it but I'd been taking B12 for years and years and took a good B complex, so just assumed there was nothing to do.

    And then I read about a B12 protocol on another health board (see http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/active-b12-protocol-basics.10138/) where I learned about the importance of folate, and how damaging folic acid can be. So I started taking 800 mcg. of folate (see above post) and I explained above what happened, and how I had to add in potassium. Methylcobalamin is a form of B12 that is highly recommended, I cannot give you the chemistry for this.

    So if you have the equivalent of "mean corpuscular volume" on your blood work, check it out. Don't rely on your doctors. In my experience doctors only look to see if a value is within the "normal" range, and if it's skewed to the top or bottom, they ignore it. Taking folate made a huge difference for my energy. It has not solved my CFS problem of crashing (post-exertional malaise) but it does help me feel almost normal sometimes. And my MCV number is no longer at the top of the normal range.

    Re adrenals: I had blood work as well to test cortisol, but I don't think that's enough. My cortisol was high at night and I think okay in the morning. Anyways, it was the adrenal glandular (Drenatrophin PMG) given to me by my chiro that really helped me. It wasn't covered by insurance (most things that help me aren't).

    You might try contacting Standard Process - Their supplements are highly regarded and I would not be surprised if they were available in the UK. And if so, they might be able to point you towards someone who does muscle testing.

    There are things you can do to support your liver that are much milder than doing a flush or detox - add lemon juice to your water, it helps with digestion and helps cleanse the liver and kidneys and gallbladder. Milk thistle helps repair and protect the liver. Then do some reading about what foods are helpful, or not. e.g., fried foods are very hard on digestion and on the gallbladder and liver and should be avoided. Go easy on fats, again hard to digest. Though you do need good fats like olive oil. But stay away from French fries etc. It's the usual, eat lots of vegies, get enough protein, avoid sugar and white flour.

    You might check out Sarah Myhill's site - she's a doctor in the UK and has a website with tons of info about CFS/ME.

    Good luck -

    Mary
    Spinney Lainey likes this.
  10. mbofov

    mbofov Member

    Spinney - I just googled "kinesiology UK" and there are several hits. Applied kinesiology is another name for muscle testing. Anyways, there are people in the UK who do it -

    Best wishes,

    Mary
  11. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    Spinney, You said that you already take vitamin D.
    What dose?
    Do you know what your blood level of 25(OH)vitamin D is? because some people, even though they take 2000IU daily still have low blood levels.
    And do you take the following with it?
    Magnesium 400mg daily
    Zinc 25 mg daily
    vitamin K2 100 -500 mcg daily
    These co-factors are quite important for the reduction of respiratory infections by vitamin D.
  12. I just ordered Moducare and was wondering what dose you take? Thanks

    EDIT: Also wondering what dose of vitamin A you take?
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
  13. What form should I buy it in to put under my tongue?

    What dose?

    How did you test for this?
  14. Nanie46

    Nanie46 Moderator

    Interesting info on Immune Modulators:

    http://www.naturalnews.com/032121_immune_modulators_disorders.html

    In addition, it really helps to be very diligent about NEVER touching your eyes, nose, mouth or food with unwashed hands.

    You can have millions of viruses and other germs on your hands but you will not get a cold, flu or stomach virus unless those germs get inside your body. They get in through your eyes, nose and mouth. Of course, those germs can also be airborne and inhaled, etc, but often we infect ourselves with our hands.

    Touching even one germ-laden surface and then touching your eyes, nose, mouth or food could mean being infected. They key is diligence.
  15. mbofov

    mbofov Member

    Hi Linney - I take 4 capsules of Moducare daily (2 caps twice a day). I think it works better on an empty stomach, though don't know for sure.

    I also take 10,000 IU vitamin A, on the recommendation of my doctor.

    I also take something called Chem Defense by Source Naturals. It contains 50 mg. of reduced glutathione in sublingual form (also has 1.7 mg. riboflavin and 120 mcg. molybdenum). It does not taste bad at all and is very reasonably priced, I think around $12 for 90 tablets. I take one a day so a bottle lasts for 3 months. Ian has a very interesting suggestion about taking 500 mg. sublingually, supposed to taste terrible, but I don't really care about taste. If something will help me, I have endured all sorts of horrible tasting things! and things that made me detox, I don't care, as long it helps me. I may give his suggestion a try, never thought of that before.

    I did just start taking PQQ as Ian has suggested, just a couple of days ago, 20 mg. a day (Swanson brand, $20 for 30 caps). It's too soon to tell if it will help, but will see.

    Best wishes,

    Mary
  16. Just got my Moducare, so will see how that works. Will do some more research on the vitamin A. I can't find sublingual glutathione anywhere..........did Ian mean using a normal 500mg capsule and putting it under your tongue?? And yeah, I don't care about taste.

    Please keep me posted about the PQQ.

    Thanks,

    Lainey

    EDIT: About the vitamin A - I just found this: http://www.powerbody.co.uk/product-...10000-iu-fish-liver-oil-100-softgel,6558.html

    Does this contain alpha carotene, do you know? Apparently I was low in that......
  17. I just received the pycogenol and trans-reservatol and am waiting for the grape-seed extract. What doses do you take? Thanks :)
  18. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    Oral glutathione must be taken sublingually to be effective (ie raise blood levels). You do not need to use the commercially produced sublingual lozenges because just having it in your mouth for several minutes will cause absorption via the cheeks, gums and under the tongue. Any dose above 100mg will be fine. I suggest 500mg. Empty the capsule onto teaspoon and put under tongue. slosh it around now and then but don't swallow for as long as is comfortable. You can either swallow after 5 mins or spit it out.

    PQQ comes in 10mg or 20mg caps. I suggest 20mg as Mary has said.

    However we seem to got a little off your original question about seasonal viruses.
  19. IanH

    IanH Active Member

  20. Hi Ian, thanks for that. Hopefully they'll help with my energy. To help with my immune system, I am also trying moducare, grape seed extract, pycogenol and reservatol as recommended by others on here. Just wondering - what the symptoms of gut problems are and how you test for this......?

    EDIT: is L-glutathione ok to buy as well?