Jump Starting Mitochondria with MMS ? [DCA Notes]

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Waynesrhythm, Jun 1, 2008.

  1. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi All,

    I’ve been experimenting with Chlorine Dioxide (MMS) for the past few weeks and have reached the point where I feel I’ve now tuned into it’s effects enough to post a few notes. Some of the main benefits I’ve noticed are: a subtle but consistent increase in energy (especially the first hour or so after ingesting it), a sense of improved oxygen utilization, a noticeable improvement in neurally mediated hypotension (NMH) and a sense of calm starting to pervade my body (which has led to somewhat improved sleep).

    I was also beginning to notice an improvement in my cognitive abilities. Then this past week I got an additional boost for my mental energies when I began taking a supplement that Karen (username barrowinnovations) has been recommending. Karen first mentioned it in her excellent thread entitled <a href="http://www.immunesupport.com/chat/forums/message.cfm?id=1222143&B=FM#1222143/">Mitochondria‘s role in PEM (crash) and how you can reduce it</a>. The product she mentioned was “Extra Energy Enzymes” by Biotec. I bought the Biotec product called “Cell Guard Plus” which is almost identical, but seems to be a slightly better value. For anybody who has not read Karen’s thread, I highly recommend you do so.

    This is a brief introduction to this post. I wanted to give a brief preview for those who have limited abilities to read much at one time, and/or who may only just want to know the main points. The rest below is expounding on my above points. My main intent here is to recommend you consider doing some research into MMS.

    [For anybody considering doing some research on MMS, it would be good to know (as far as I know) that there have been virtually no studies done on it; online reports are primarily anecdotal.]

    I created five sections outlining some of my experiences with MMS. They are:

    I. --- Jump Starting Mitochondrial Function ? - [DCA Notes]
    II. -- Oxidizing Pathogens with MMS / Rate of Dosage Increase
    III. - Improved Oxygen Utilization / NMH Improved
    IV. - Combination of Other Factors Have Helped --- Partial Fasting; Raw Goat Products; Being in Nature; Biocircuits; L-Pyroglutamic Acid.
    V. -- Perspectives -- Summation

    Regards to All, Wayne

    I. Jump Starting Mitochondrial Function ? - [DCA Notes]

    --- Associated Symptom Improvements (Best Guess) - Consistent Subtle Increase in Energy; Improved Oxygen Utilization; Neurally Mediated Hypotension (NMH) improved. [NMH also known as Orthostatic Intolerance (OI), Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome (POTS) and Dysautonomia.]

    [[NOTE: Richvank below posted how he thinks MMS and DCA act much differently in the body. I feel he is correct with his explanations, which would make much of this segment on DCA irrelevent to the modus operendi of MMS, the general purpose of this thread.]]

    After I began noticing a pretty consistent increase in energy and cognitive function, I began to do more research into MMS. At one point I discovered that MMS has a similar chemical composition to Dichloroacetate (DCA) [which consists of two oxygens, two chlorines, and two carbons]. DCA, a safe, unpatentable and inexpensive drug, is currently being researched at the University of Alberta where they are successfully treating various types of cancers with virtually no side effects.

    It turns out [DCA has been used for years to treat people with mitochondrial disease. The drug boosts the ability of mitochondria to generate energy. When given to cancer cells it did the same: the cells switched from glycolysis to mitochondrial energy production. Functional mitochondria in turn helps cells recognize functional abnormalities and trigger cell death.]

    After reading how DCA affects mitochondrial function, I immediately began to suspect that this was the mechanism for my improved energy, ability to better utilize oxygen, and my NMH improvement. If these improvements had been the result of eliminating part of my pathogen load, it seems my improvement would have been slow and steady (over a period of weeks or longer). Instead, these symptoms seem to improve significantly immediately after ingesting my dosages of MMS, and then gradually begin to fade over the next few hours.

    This <a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=TZNMDDdZybk">DCA video</a> shows a Canadian news report on DCA.

    This <a href="http://www.natmedtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1524/">DCA link</a> will get you get you a bit more acquainted with DCA.

    <a href="http://www.thedcasite.com/?gclid=CODXwpaFvo8CFRsIWAodFiYCYQ/">The DCA Site</a> is also a good website to check out.

    <a href="http://www.healingcancernaturally.com/dca-dichloroacetate-treatment.html">HealingCancerNaturally</a> also has a section on DCA.

    II. Oxidizing Pathogens with MMS / Rate of Dosage Increase

    --- Associated Improvements (Best Guess) - Sense of Calm; Better Sleep.

    The main reason I began to experiment with MMS was because of its reputed ability to oxidize (kill) many pathogens, including those responsible for Malaria, Lyme, HIV, Hepatitis, etc. And many pathogens, whether viral, bacterial, fungal, etc. seem to be implicated in many cases of ME/CFS/FM.

    I’ve long suspected I have Lyme, and began to see an even clearer clinical picture for myself after reading many of the Lyme posts on this board (Thank you to all the Lymies!) After reading online reports of people improving Lyme and other pathogenic symptoms with MMS, I thought perhaps it might help me as well.

    I can’t say for sure I have Lyme, and I can’t say for sure that MMS is oxidizing it or any other pathogen in my body, but I feel this is the case. It just feels that I’ve been battling some type of infection that has created much of my “agitated exhaustion”, and whatever pathogen(s) it may be, it now feels it is beginning to be eradicated, and leaving behind a sense of calm in my body.

    The reason I say “beginning” is because I’ve been very cautious about proceeding with this MMS experiment. While they recommend starting out rather aggressively (by my standards) and working up to 15-30 drops/day, I started slowly, and have not yet progressed to their recommended levels.

    I started out at a single drop a day, and while noticing some subtle improvements, I also noticed a certain sensitivity in my sinuses. It may have been from a low grade sinus infection working itself out; I just don’t know. But I decided to back off until I no longer noticed this sensitivity. This entailed eventually cutting back to 1/3 drop every other day. From there I went to ½ drop every day, then a 2/3 drop, and finally a drop every other day.

    I finally got back to a whole drop every day, then starting slowing adding incrementally (2-3 times a day). It was still slow going for a while, until this past week, when I went (comfortably) to a drop twice daily, then a drop three times daily, then gradually adding until I am now at two drops three times daily. I’m mentioning this because it took me 4-6 weeks to reach this level.

    It was much slower going for me in the beginning, and I now feel I’m beginning to gain a certain momentum as I go forward. It also seems now that the more I take the better I feel. It’s gotten to the point where I can walk better and have noticeably improved cognitive abilities.

    If you’re interested, this <a href="http://www.healthsalon.org/376/mms-discussion-forums/">MMS link</a> is a good place to get started on MMS research.

    I first posted on this MMS topic on a thread entitled <a href="http://www.immunesupport.com/chat/forums/message.cfm?id=1218719&B=FM#1218719/">Lyme Disease / Chlorine Dioxide / MMS/ Reiki</a>.

    III. Improved Oxygen Utilization / NMH Improved

    I have for years felt that my body cannot properly use oxygen. It’s been frustrating to take a deep breath because it has felt like I’m breathing into a plastic balloon, with precious little oxygen able to go out and penetrate my body and cells. I live at approx. 2,000 ft elevation here in southern Oregon, and when I would start going up into the mountains in the surrounding area, I would immediately notice the low oxygen affecting me in many ways.

    Within a few short days of starting the MMS, I noticed when taking a deep breath that my oxygen utilization seemed to be improving significantly. Yesterday I did a test and made a trip up to about 4,500 feet and stayed all day (in my cute little 15-foot self-contained camper, with a great picture window). I didn’t notice the negative effects of that very high elevation until evening. That is really quite remarkable for me.

    This seems to tie in with my noticeable improvements in my NMH. I don’t really know whether these two areas of benefit are the result of improved mitochondrial function (my best guess), pathogen dieoff, or some kind of combination of the two. It may be a totally different dynamic than any of these possibilities, but what I do know is that feels really significant. I suspect a lot of our problems/symptoms can be attributed to not having enough oxygen available for normal biologic functions.

    IV. Combination of Other Factors Have Helped --- Partial Fasting; Raw Goat Products; Being in Nature; Biocircuits; L-Pyroglutamic Acid...

    I should add that I continue to do other things that I feel are helping me. I’m able to get out into the mountains and a nearby lake several times a week, often staying all day long. It feels like being away from city energy and all that it entails is a big plus for my “get well” program. I believe electromagnetic frequencies (EMFs) in particular can be problematic for many of us, possibly because our body’s electrical system has been impacted so much. To help address this, I’ve also returned to using my <a href="http://www.biocircuits.info/index_files/biocircuits2.htm">Biocircuits</a> much more frequently, and am always amazed to rediscover how helpful they are.

    I’ve also been further restricting my diet to see how it may help. I’ve been on somewhat of a partial fast for a couple weeks now, with my diet consisting primarily of organic raw goat whey and cheese (homemade). I believe the goat products give me a steady supply of high quality, highly absorbable protein. To this I add raw avocadoes, lots of alfalfa, red clover and mung bean sprouts (which I sprout myself in gallon jugs), occasional raw seeds and nuts, and an occasional piece of fruit or vegetable like organic baby carrots. This eliminates gluten in case I have celiac’s disease, and other foods that are common allergens for people with gut dysbiosis problems. It feels like this partial fasting is allowing my whole digestive and immune systems to rest more deeply than they’ve been able to.

    Of note: I’ve tried various types of partial fasting regimens for many years, always feeling it could do some good things for me if I could tolerate it. I could never get past a day or so without feeling incredibly weak and my NMH becoming very pronounced. It’s interesting that the MMS has now given me the ability to get beyond these limitations, giving me elements of strength and energy instead of weakness, and my NMH becoming less of a problem than normal. It seems the MMS has some type of ability to bring a certain sense of harmony and vitality to some of my internal regulating mechanisms. I’m guessing most of it starts with improved mitochondrial function.

    I should add also that I do not believe I would be getting the kind of results with MMS that I am had I not “set the stage” for myself by doing many other things, both past and present. I’ve had my amalgams removed, had an asymptomatic infected root-canaled tooth extracted, had the <a href="http://www.immunesupport.com/chat/forums/message.cfm?id=1120581&B=FM/">Atlas Profilax</a> procedure done to properly align my atlas and relieve serious cranial nerve compression, had a specialized “balloon treatment” to clear up my sinus passages and restore flexibility to my locked cranials; I’m sure there’s more. And I’m currently doing the methylation cycle block supplements (Thanks Rich); taking various mitochondrial fuels (supplements) and various probiotic supplements; doing various detoxification measures, including <clay foot baths> and an oral chelation program; and much more.

    As much benefit as I’m currently getting from the MMS, I’m under no illusion that it is going to be some kind of magic bullet for me. There are not guarantees my improvements will continue, and if they do, there will be much more to do, including attempting to rebuild my body after decades of chronic illness.

    V. Perspectives -- Summation

    I’ve long looked at oxygenation/oxidative therapies as having a lot of potential for helping me with my health issues, especially those related to various pathogens. They always seemed to me to be safer than various regimens of antibiotics and/or anti-virals. I did a stint of food grade hydrogen peroxide drops about 15 years ago, tried photophoresis (type of ozone therapy), drank ozonated water and currently take drops which create ozone in the body. I’ve had fairly limited success with these therapies, but they did give me a good yardstick with which to evaluate my current experience with MMS. And based on this past experience, MMS seems to be in a league of its own, being far more effective than any of the other oxidative therapies I’ve tried.

    For perspective, it still hurts for me to think, is still painful for me to read, and is still almost torturous for me to organize; just a little less so. I have to say though, that I’m able to find more and more times when it is much less so, and can enjoy doing all of the above, such as creating this thread. It feels like my very recent additional supplementation of <a href="http://www.thehealthierlife.co.uk/natural-health-articles/mental-health/pyroglutamic-acid-improve-mental-fatigue-00926.html/">L-Pyroglutamic Acid</a> may be helping me with my mental functions as well.

    As far as overall functionality, I would say I’ve gone from hovering around 15-20% for the past 6 months or so, up to between 25-30%, in just 4-6 weeks. This may seem minimal, but when you’re dealing with health conditions that generally get progressively worse, sometimes just staying even is progress. And to increase functionality 25-40% from previous levels feels pretty significant.

    My own ME/CFS symptoms started with a head injury about 40 years ago, and began seriously deteriorating about 25 years ago, eventually sending me down to a functionality of around 4% (felt barely alive). Given my history and my age (56), to improve as I have in just a few weeks, with an expectation of being able to improve further, feels pretty miraculous to me.

    Thanks for reading, Wayne
    [This Message was Edited on 06/30/2008]
  2. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    A number of manganese activated enzymes play important roles in the metabolism of cabohydrates, amino acids, and cholesterol. Pyruvate carboxylase, a manganese containing enzyme, and phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase (PEPCK), a manganese activated enzyme, are crucial in gluconeogenesis-the production of glucose from non-carbohydrate precursors
  3. kevinguibara

    kevinguibara New Member


    Please briefly describe the severity of your head injury, was it massive or minor?


  4. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Kevin -- My head injury at the time was called a severe concussion bordering on skull fracture (whatever that means). When I went to a cranial sacral therapist recently, he knew exactly where I had hit the back of my head (over 40 years ago) and noted that he had never seen a case where the cranials were so locked up.

    I believe this head injury with severe whiplash seriously misaligned my atlas and pinched many of the cranial nerves exiting the brainstem. This nerve compression (recently relieved by Atlas Profilax), in addition to other unknown aspects of the injury, initiated my whole body going into varying degrees of distress and dysfunction eventually leading to multi-system failure.

    Many of the ME/CFS symptoms I deal with are very similar to those associated with post-concussion syndrome.

    Regards, Wayne[This Message was Edited on 12/28/2008]
  5. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Wayne.

    I find your experimental treatment very interesting, and am glad to hear that it is bringing improvement.

    With regard to MMS and DCA, I would expect them to operate differently from a biochemical standpoint. As has been noted, DCA inhibits the enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase, which has the effect of causing an increased rate of flow of pyruvate from the glycolysis pathway (metabolizing carbohydrates) to the formation of acetyl CoA, to be fed into the Krebs cycle. It therefore feeds more carbohydrate fuel into the mitochondria to undergo oxidative phosphorylation and produce ATP.

    MMS on the other hand involves chlorine dioxide. I suspect that it is able to diffuse into cells and produce reactive oxygen species. Cells that are not able to tolerate the additional oxidative stress this produces would be most vulnerable. As you probably know MMS has been claimed to be effective against malaria. The malaria parasite invades red blood cells and breaks down hemoglobin, releasing iron ions and producing oxidative stress, which the parasite must protect itself against. If MMS does indeed work against malaria, I suspect that the reason is that the malaria parasites are already in a condition of oxidative stress, and the additional oxidative stress is too much for them to handle.

    If MMS does indeed work in cancer, I suspect that the reason would be that the cancer cells are less able to tolerate the oxidative stress caused by chlorine dioxide.

    If MMS works against other pathogens, then I suspect that the reason would again be that they are more vulnerable to oxidative stress than are the normal cells, which would also be receiving chlorine dioxide.

    I don't know why MMS would be helping your energy status. Perhaps it is killing off some pathogens, such as some bacteria, and thus relieving the immune system from having to combat them. This may lower the demand for glutathione and allow it to rise. Depletion of glutathione is what I believe causes the physical fatigue in CFS, so this would be consistent with that.

    As I say, I'm not sure of this mechanism. It's only a hypothesis at this point.

    I can imagine that this mechanism might work together with the methylation cycle block treatment you are doing, since both would have the effect of helping glutathione levels to rise.

    One of the big unanswered questions with the methylation cycle block treatment in CFS, as far as I'm concerned, is whether it is necessary to do something additional to combat some of the various pathogens that are present in many people who have CFS. Can the immune system handle them, once it is restored to normal operation by lifting the methylation cycle block and raising glutathione, or have the pathogens become so entrenched while the immune system has been dysfunctional that they are able to frustrate its efforts when it comes back on line? It is known that pathogens have a variety of tricks they can use to fool and frustrate the immune system, so it may be that they will need special attention. I don't have much information on this yet, but it sounds as though Borrelia burgdorferi, the bacteria that produce Lyme disease, may need to be treated directly in people who have CFS and chronic Borrelia infection, while they receive the methylation cycle block treatment in addition. I'm hopeful that the methylatin cycle block treatment will make the Borrelia more vulnerable to antibiotic treatment, such as by causing Borrelia to revert back from the cyst form to the spirochete form, and that the immune system will be in a better position to take over, once the antibiotics have knocked the bacteria down some.

    Time will tell, but I appreciate reading of your experience, and hope you will keep us posted.

  6. victoria

    victoria New Member

    I found this website very interesting, would love to hear Rich's input on this MD's website about how/why MMS works...


  7. jenbooks13

    jenbooks13 New Member

    Congratulations on persistence and balance in your healing program. I feel better in nature too:) though its harder for me to get to it than for you I suspect. I also feel better in sun, it seems to improve my entire immune system (contrary to Marshall Protocol ideas). May I ask, how do you take 1/3 of a drop? Did you put one drop in water and then only drink a third of the dose?

    Also I did buy MMS some months ago but it came in plastic. Considering all that I know about plastic now and how it leaches endocrine disrupters, I worried about dhlorine dioxide leaching chemicals out of the plastic. Nobody else has seemed to worry about this.

    I find that small inputs have big responses in me, so I understand that small amounts could work for you. I can do one hyperbaric chamber session every 10 days--but it makes a huge difference in my overall function. A glutathione IV has a big effect too.

    I think your reaction to altitude and tolerance of it indicates better oxygenation, for whatever reason. It couldn't just be pathogen load you are affecting.

    Also, myself, I got rid of my bed and am waiting for a woolfill futon style bed, in the meantime, I am using self inflating camping mats (three piled on top of each other for comfort. These are expensive, $80 each, from thermarest, but they have a unique foam cell technology, and the toxic foam stays inside the mat so I don't have a chemical reaction to it. I followed Lisa Petrison's posts closely and concluded I too have a major mold problem in my household, and I found that sleeping on my mattresses or couch cushions was a big contributor to my ongoing congestion. I think mattresses can easily harbor dust mites and fungi and mold spores from the environment, esp if it is high in mold spores from contaminated drywall etc. Now on the camping mats, with washable linens, I have significantly less congestion and seem more energetic though it's not a 100% change.
    [This Message was Edited on 06/02/2008]
  8. victoria

    victoria New Member

    we got ours in glass... I think it was thru Jim Humble's site...

  9. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Jenbooks,

    Thanks much for your reply. Regarding how I take 1/3 drop of MMS... I first mix a single drop of MMS with 5 drops of citric acid solution, let it set for 3 minutes, then pour it into a measuring cup and add about 1/2 cup of water. Drinking a 1/3 of this water gave me my 1/3 drop dosage.

    Regarding the MMS coming in a plastic container. I share your concern about plastic containers, but one thing to keep in mind is that the MMS container actually contains sodium chlorite. It's only when you add the citric acid that it becomes chlorine dioxide, a compound I would suspect would be of much more concern if it touched plastic.

    I must confess, I feel a tad envious about you're being able to do HBOT sessions. I've wanted to do these for quite some time, always feeling they would be a good adjunct for my regimens. Do you own one and use it at home, or do you go to a medical facility to have it done? If so, does your insurance pay for it? Was also wondering if your doctor is prescribing it as an off label treatment. --- I'd love to do some glutathione IV treatments as well. Good for you that you have both. I've actually had the thought that my improved oxygen utilization could reduce my need for oxygen supplemention such as HBOT or oxygen concentrators.

    Thanks much also for mentioning how you're addressing your bed situation. I'm intrigued about the thermarest camping mats you mention. I would like to have a better bed for my little camper, another one for my van, and a good suitable one for the house. I hope I'm not asking too much for my comfort needs. :) If you have the time, was wondering how you decided on a woolfill futon style bed.

    Victoria -- Thanks so much for the great &lt;a href="http://bioredox.mysite.com/CLOXhtml/CLOXhome.htm/"&gt;MMS website&lt;/a&gt; you posted here. I haven't had a chance to look at it much yet but it does seem to be a very informative site. Thanks also for the tip of glass containers of MMS. I would feel better about glass myself.

    Regards, Wayne[This Message was Edited on 12/28/2008]
  10. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Rich,

    Thanks so much for your reply. I was actually hoping you might see this thread and weigh in with some of your good insights. Though I don't have technical biochemical knowledge to draw on, your explanation about how MMS and DCA likely act much differently makes sense to me.

    As to why I'm feeling extra energy from the MMS... I think your hypothesis makes a lot of sense. I've just noticed today that I seem to especially have more energy in my solar plexus area. And this has made me wonder if the MMS is somehow having a direct impact on my nervous system, whether stimulating it, or more likely, calming it down and allowing it to function better. This would fit into my experience of going from "agitated exhaustion" to a sense of calm settling inside my body. Lots of wondering as new developments occur.

    I feel I am proceeding slowly and cautiously, and am on the lookout for any signs of negative side effects. I think this is what Banya might have been cautioning about in her post. I tend to think that the MMS-induced oxidative stress you refer to is primarily, if not soley, relevent to pathogenic or unhealthy cells, and that healthy cells with healthy membranes would not be affected. However, if you can think of anything I might want to watch out for as far as possibly getting too much of the MMS induced oxidative stress, I would be interested in your thoughts.
    Thanks again for your reply.

    Regards, Wayne
    [This Message was Edited on 06/02/2008]
  11. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Victoria.

    Thanks very much for posting this link. Dr. Hesselink has certainly done his homework! As far as I can tell, he's right on. I have no independent evidence that MMS works for malaria, but if it does, I think that Dr. Hesselink's explanation is probably correct about how it does. I liked how he got into the nitty gritty of the reactions that occur.

    He didn't discuss how chlorine dioxide gets into the cells. I think the important thing is that it is a small, uncharged molecule, and thus should be able to diffuse passively through phospholipid membranes without need for a channel or a carrier protein. Getting it inside the cells, including the cells of the parasite, would be vital to its success.

    He also didn't spend much time talking about why the chlorine dioxide doesn't kill normal human cells, but I think he implies that they have enough antioxidant capacity to resist the oxidative stress, while the parasites and bacteria do not, and I think that has to be the explanation.

    I was particularly interested in his suggestion toward the end of the printer-friendly version that chlorine dioxide might work on Babesia. I've been thinking the same thing, given its similarity to the malaria parasite and its action against red blood cells.

    I'm glad that Wayne is taking it slowly on raising the dosage, because excessive dosages of this strong oxidant would be toxic. I think that could be especially true in a person with CFS, because of the state of oxidative stress that exists in CFS.

    I'm wondering how long it will be before the FDA comes down on MMS. I expect that there will be a move in that direction. Call me cynical if you want, but this is an unpatentable substance, and if it works, it could really cut into sales of a lot of drugs. You may know that the FDA shut down the company in Sonora, CA, that was producing DCA "for veterinary purposes." I suspect that DCA does work pretty well for cancer, based on the work published by the University of Alberta group, and it also is unpatentable. The problem in trying to stop use of MMS is that sodium chlorite and citric acid are just too widely used and easy to get. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.

  12. jenbooks13

    jenbooks13 New Member

    You asked about my hyperbaric chamber, which is my lifesaver. Honestly, if I skip about 10 days, I start to feel a kind of toxic-unto-death feeling that is just horrible. One hour session keeps that at bay for about 10 days and makes me feel more whole, energetic, and has done good things for my digestion, and I think somewhat saved my brain :))))).

    I have my own home chamber. This is extremely convenient but its also an expensive item. However many chiropractors and holistic docs carry them these days. To find someone in your area you might google around or you can call oxyhealth, the firm that makes them, in California and ask for a referral.

    I would highly recommend it. I went to look at your profile, which I remember reading a while back (I admire your spiritual overview and that pic near Moab is beautiful). I can tell you hyperbaric has really had a tremendously beneficial effect on the wired/tired/toxic feeling and on headaches. It sounds like you suffer from this and I think you are on the right track thinking it might help you.

    Re: the woolfill bed. Well I did a ton of research. I am very sensitive to molds, they have an adverse effect on me, and I think I probably have a significant mold issue in my apartment. I suspect my mattresses were contaminated, as most bedding--mattresses and pillows in particular--have an ecosystem of fungi and dust mites that thrive together. The fungi eat the feces of the dust mites and thrive on humidity, and the mites eat our skin flakes and like living in bedding. You can wash your pillows and put them in the dryer and "sterilize" them but you can't do that with a mattress. Assuming I have spores of some unpleasant (and maybe toxic) molds in my place, they would proliferate in my mattresses too. Anyway, I won't go into the whole long story, but at this point I'm sleeping on 3 inflatable air mats as I said. This is not the same as an aerobed, which is just air. These are thermarest and have some kind of sophisticated foam technology with many cells of foam. The mat self inflates over a 24 hour period, to about 1.5 inches or so, the foam sort of absorbs air slowly like a sponge. You can also blow air in yourself to puff it up more but I like them a bit softer. When I let air out, out of curiosity, to see if I could smell the foam, I definitely smelled that sweet, toxic smell of foam, which I am sensitive to and which is a health hazard imo. But with the valve tightened nothing gets out and the covers are inert and probably waterproof nylon or something.

    I found that three was enough to give me the cushioning I require. Its comfortable and because its better for my immune system I've grown attached to my weird floorbed :). As it was for about 18 months I was so congested and stuffed up I couldn't breathe thru my nose at all at night and would wake up as stuffed up as if I had a cold. I would also wake up very thirsty, and my eyes would feel sticky. I think it was all a reaction to mold.

    Wool is dust mite resistant supposedly and therefore would not be as likely to be a problem. Wool is coated with lanolin, an interesting substance with medicinal properties. Although they wash the wool to get most of it off, some remains. Wool also resists moisture and is temperature responsive (ie think about sheep--they can stay warm in winter and cool in summmer; unlike ducks who have to build up downy feathers in winter and shed them in summer. IE down insulates.)

    I got these mats at a camping store but they are also online. I got the extra large. Even so it makes a narrow bed. I think they make them even wider, for two. If my woolbed doesn't really work for me I'll buy the wider ones and create my own mattress for myself and then probably buy one of those beautiful frames I saw at white lotus futon.

    Cotton futons--I don't like them. The "green" ones that are not organic smell awful. I don't think they're healthy. The organic ones are okay, but remember, cotton is a plant and wants to absorb water, so, it will mold eventually (fungi and dust mites again).

    Regular mattresses are full of flame retardants that are very toxic, foam that is toxic and offgasses, and basically totally unhealthy.

    Latex mattresses are supposed to be much healthier, even though they tend to be synthetic and also a petroleum product like foam. But they are much less toxic.

    Anyway I'm happy with my mats. I don't think one or even two is enough for really comfortable sleeping, for a female anyway (side sleeping, your hip needs cushion).

    Sorry for this long rambling answer I'm a little tired.
    [This Message was Edited on 06/02/2008]
  13. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Wayne.

    "However, if you can think of anything I might want to watch out for as far as possibly getting too much of the MMS induced oxidative stress, I would be interested in your thoughts."

    I think you would be able to tell by how you felt. Worsening oxidative stress would cause a lot of the symptoms of CFS to get worse, because (in my hypothesis, at least) many of them result directly from glutathione depletion, and worsening oxidative stress would deplete glutathione further. So I would say, "Listen to your body."

    I need to add a little disclaimer here: I'm not recommending MMS as a treatment, because I can't offer individual treatment advice unless a physician is directly involved. However, if someone decides to try it on their own volition, such as you are doing, I am very interested to know how it goes. This may seem a little hypocritical, but I would like to stay out of trouble while learning as much as I can, hopefully for the benefit of the CFS community in the long run.

  14. JenniferAnn539

    JenniferAnn539 New Member


    Thanks for the post and all the information.

  15. victoria

    victoria New Member

    I can absolutely guarantee that if one goes too fast it can be quite toxic. I read the lyme-andrife list, many can't go beyond a drop or so for a long time without getting a strong reaction...

    For an update on my family (normally put this on the lyme board):

    My 20 yo son is trying it as he still has lingering problems from lyme and suspected bartonella & babesia (was 2X positive on all 5 bands on WB), is on hiatus from oral abx after 3 years, seems to have gone backwards a bit while trying to stay on a maintenance dose; he was supposed to give his immune system a rest basically, but it's hard to just leave it alone when you still feel some symptoms. He is stalled at about 8 drops. Initially it made him feel better (more energetic), however.

    My daughter and her BF are also using it - she had Rocky mtn and anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if also lyme &/or other tick infections by now as we've all been bitten repeatedly by ticks anyway... she is stalled at about 8-9 drops, any more and she gets totally nauseated.

    Her BF likely had/has lyme, vision blurred 2 months or so after having a 'summer flu' and was treated by an astute doctor but with only 2 weeks of doxy, altho it did clear his vision up at least... he since has had major problems with food allergies, usually has a list of about 10 foods only that he can eat at any one time. He tried to go up too quickly on the MMS, reached 12 drops and started vomiting... so is also taking a break and will drop back likely to 8.

    So far, for the 3 of them, about 8 seems to be the magic number.

    My DH is able to take 15 drops with no problem and the 'fragrance' doesn't even bother him.......... go figure, he's got so many weird symptoms I figured he had to have one of these infections, but --?? But what it did do for him that was absolutely major was it stopped the spasming on the right side of his face/head due to atypical bell's palsy... as good as botox, and likely a lot safer - plus he actually has muscle control of his eyebrow, which he didn't have with botox of course.

    Again, thanks for your input. My son's been the only one actually tested for lyme, as we're financially strained. For the record, tho, I've worked thru phase 2 of the marshall protocol... my herxing on that is what made me realize that my son had lyme as his symptoms were so close to mine.

    all the best,

    [This Message was Edited on 06/02/2008]
  16. jenbooks13

    jenbooks13 New Member

    Victoria I would be grateful if you would email me at jenbooks13 at hotmail dot com, and tell me where to go for a glass bottle of MMS. I'd prefer it to plastic but searched around and don't know where you found it.
  17. victoria

    victoria New Member

    We had one bottle that was glass, one that was plastic.

    I wrote to 2 different suppliers, both wrote that the plastic was not reactive, but one was willing to supply in glass bottles. But it will cost more, as it will cost more to insure etc. Here's the reply:

    "The plastic containers the mms comes in is perfectly safe...
    I could prepare a special order with glass bottles. The only problem is that there are no spout caps for the glass containers, so I would need to find caps that are the same size for the drops. There is also the problem of insuring that the bottle arrives at its destination unbroken. It would cost 10-15 dollars more per bottle because of the shipping involved."

    Their site was buymiraclemineral,
    Phone Hours are: M-F, 9AM - 5PM PST
    Toll Free: (888) 552-1110 Phone/Fax: (480) 522-1019

  18. jenbooks13

    jenbooks13 New Member

    Some of the polymers in plastic have estrogenic properties and will leach into plain old water, much less something like MMS. Thanks for your info. I try not to drink or eat much that is stored in plastic, period. Now the amount of MMS is relatively small (that one takes) even so, it sounds like the kind of chemical that could indeed cause leaching.
  19. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    A few notes this morning on my MMS experimentation…

    I was doing 3-4 drops twice daily, and yesterday started out at 4 drops in the morning, and then got an impulse to do another 4 drops only a couple hours later. I was curious what it might do.

    Well, it was quite a surprise (albeit still subtle). Whereas I usually felt a pickup in energy, this particular dose felt like it jolted my brain a bit with a subtle shift toward clarity. (I was happy about that!). When I woke up from my afternoon nap, I noticed it didn’t take me nearly so long to “come around” as it usually does.
    Then I took my normal late afternoon dose of another 4 drops and did quite well with it. So yesterday was my first 12-drop day. One thing I did notice was a couple of very brief (a second or two) sharp pains, one by my sternum and another near my colon. Don’t know what it’s about, but will be monitoring these types of pains as I continue.

    This morning, I decided to start with 5 drops, and see what happened. It gave me an even bigger uplift in energy than with my lower doses. I’m really curious as to what may be causing this pickup in energy, but for now will appreciate that it seems to be doing something very good for my neurological symptoms (brain fog, neurally mediated hypotension, vertigo, etc.).

    I usually notice a bigger increase in my energy with my morning doses than my late afternoon doses. It’s gotten to the point where I look forward to taking it as soon as I get up to help me work through my normal morning brain fog.

    I’m continuing to research this, and am intrigued by reports that MMS is supposed to have the capability to clear arterial plaque. That report can be accessed <a href="http://www.healthsalon.org/367/mms-testimonial-no-14-a-cautionary-note">here</a>. Makes me wonder if it might be able to also clear out amyloid plaques in the brains of Alzheimer's patients.

    Regards, Wayne
    [This Message was Edited on 06/09/2008]
  20. cct

    cct Member


    You are such an inspiration!

    Thanks for using yourself a a guinea pig and then sharing all of the self-test results with us.

    I really appreciate all of your efforts. I really really really appreciate ALL of your efforts. Thanks.

    Keep on truckin', dude!

    Love ya,


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