Klutzo ---Benzodiazepines Stage 4 Sleep

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by karen2002, Nov 27, 2002.

  1. karen2002

    karen2002 New Member

    Klutzo---I typed in "Benzodiazepines Stage 4 Sleep" into Search engines.....Got tons of hits. The general concensus is that yes---stage 4 sleep is decreased. I did find one, and listed it (first excerpt below)...that said Xanax was the exception to the rule...but only one I saw stating this. I just looked at about 15 hits though.

    Benzodiazepines increase the length of Stage I sleep at the expense of Stage IV sleep, i.e., none or little Stage IV sleep is obtained. Xanax apparently is the exception because it doesn't disturb Stage IV.

    These are a few examples of the nays----

    In general, benzodiazepines:

    shorten slow wave sleep, especially stage 4 and also shorten each REM cycle;
    but increase total sleep time by increasing the time spent in stage 2;
    increase the number of REM cycles, i.e. total REM time increases even though time per REM cycle decreases;
    impart a sense of deep, refreshing sleep;
    decrease sleep latency

    Many people have a misperception of sleep-wake cycles which influences their drug use. Benzodiazepines tend to increase stage 2 sleep but reduce stage 3 and 4 sleep which is considered to be the most restorative.

    This one interesting...haven't heard of zopiclone....

    The effect of zopiclone on stage 3 and 4 sleep differs from that of the benzodiazepines which suppress slow wave sleep.
    Karen
  2. karen2002

    karen2002 New Member

    Klutzo---I typed in "Benzodiazepines Stage 4 Sleep" into Search engines.....Got tons of hits. The general concensus is that yes---stage 4 sleep is decreased. I did find one, and listed it (first excerpt below)...that said Xanax was the exception to the rule...but only one I saw stating this. I just looked at about 15 hits though.

    Benzodiazepines increase the length of Stage I sleep at the expense of Stage IV sleep, i.e., none or little Stage IV sleep is obtained. Xanax apparently is the exception because it doesn't disturb Stage IV.

    These are a few examples of the nays----

    In general, benzodiazepines:

    shorten slow wave sleep, especially stage 4 and also shorten each REM cycle;
    but increase total sleep time by increasing the time spent in stage 2;
    increase the number of REM cycles, i.e. total REM time increases even though time per REM cycle decreases;
    impart a sense of deep, refreshing sleep;
    decrease sleep latency

    Many people have a misperception of sleep-wake cycles which influences their drug use. Benzodiazepines tend to increase stage 2 sleep but reduce stage 3 and 4 sleep which is considered to be the most restorative.

    This one interesting...haven't heard of zopiclone....

    The effect of zopiclone on stage 3 and 4 sleep differs from that of the benzodiazepines which suppress slow wave sleep.
    Karen
  3. Shirl

    Shirl New Member

    Its Shirl, not Klutzo!(big difference here, Klutzo is the smarter by far!).

    I can vouch for the Xanax, I have taken 0.25 milligrams of Xanax at 6pm on and off for 15 years. It calms me down and then I take the ZMA at 10pm and sleep a deep sleep for at least 7-8 hours without all that waking up every hour on the hour like I used to before I started the ZMA.

    But Klutzo will explain the pros and cons of Xanax for you, as I only know it works for me, and I only take it once a day, unless I feel a panic attack coming on, then I take half the .25 dose.

    That was an interesting post.

    Shalom, Shirl
  4. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    I appreciate this info. I do take Klonopin and since being on it, have gotten such restful sleep and feel so much more refreshed upon awakening that I am having a hard time thinking that I am not getting more Stage IV sleep, yet I don't doubt this inof.

    Before Klonopin, I was awake all hours of the night and often had a hard time getting back to sleep. Now, I sleep 8 hours, get up feeling energetic, and have no drug hangover. I only wonder how I would be feeling if I were getting more Stage IV sleep.

    Love, Mikie
  5. karen2002

    karen2002 New Member

    Hey you two :)
    Hope you both had great Thanksgivings!
    Klutzo was saying that she had been removed from Xanax--her doc had said it disrupted stage 4 sleep....I was just plucking away at the info, I could find that may or may not support that. Sleep is a big issue for me, so thought I would do a bit more research.
    After hearing Mikie's success with Klonipin--I asked my doc about a month ago, to give it a try. (Had tried elavil, and flexeril, prior). I am sold Mikie---this stuff is working great! I agree...I think I am hitting deep levels of sleep, whereas I wasn't before. Much less stiffness, and soreness upon awakening (yes the Mac Truck is gone :)
    Less awakening....less racy mind, so falling asleep is easier---plus the added benefit of no more RLS, and sensory overload/anxiety. Klonopin gets a thumbs up from me!
    Karen
  6. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    Hope you all had a great Turkey Day!
    I am glad to see Xanax is the exception, since I am hooked on it.
    New doctor's always want to take me off, but I go to a doctor who won't do that. My current doc says I am taking miniscule doses and getting a huge benefit, so there is no problem. The only problem would be if I were stranded on a desert island without it! Then it would be curtains.
    I wish I could take Klonopin, since it also has the Neuroeleptic effect that I need, but am not getting from Xanax. Example: my bruxism has gotten so bad that the left side of my face swelled up the other day, with shooting pains too, and I ran to the ENT doc, who told me it was the bruxism causing the swelling, and the FMS causing the intense pain. He suggested....you guessed it...Klonopin. Oh well.
    I'm so glad most of you are able to take it.
    Klutzo
  7. Suze

    Suze New Member

    Has benzodiazepine withdrawal been discussed here? It's a serious issue. When my daughter was hospitalized with pneumonia, the doctor stupidly took her off the benzo she was taking (abruptly, not gradually), and the result was a seizure and a small stroke.

    There are entire websites devoted to proper benzo withdrawal, and the consequences of going off them too quickly.

    While it's unlikely that any of us will be stranded on a desert island, hospitalization is not out of the question...


    Suze
  8. karen2002

    karen2002 New Member

    I have never been bodily searched before hospital admission *wink* I will take the meds I need, and never let anyone, carelessly throw me into withdrawal--seizures don't appeal.

    Seriously, if I were hospitalized, they would be provided with a list of my meds. If I were in poor enough shape not to be able to speak for myself---my primary knows I am on Klonopin, and so does hubby--and knows it shouldn't be quickly removed. Any Doc--who knows you are on one of these meds and then goes the cold turkey route...is a bafoon.

    Klutzo...I had terrible bruxism, too--the klonopin has solved that. You said you couldn't take klonopin, even tho one of your docs recommended it? I take just a small dose at bedtime--it couldn't be taken in a small dose w/ the xanax?
    Just wondering?
    Karen
  9. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    How gratifying to read how well you are doing on the Klonopin. I'm very happy for you.

    Withdrawal from many drugs can be a problem. I believe that if our meds are producing good results, that the withdrawal problem can be resolved should we ever need to stop our meds. I have gone to sleep on several occasions forgetting to take my Klonopin and have suffered nothing more than a bad night's sleep.

    Love, Mikie
  10. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    To answer your question, Klonopin made me stop breathing. Apparently it is somehow related to quinine, because the doctor told me that since it did that to me, I should never take any quinine derivitives, like Q-Vel, or any other over-the-counter medicine for restless legs.
    Since Klonopin and Xanax are both benzos, taking them both together would be redundant. If a person can tolerate Klonopin, I believe it is the better drug. Xanax is out of the body within about 5 hrs. but you aren't supposed to take it more than once every 8 hrs., so you end up with withdrawl symptoms and panic attacks, or at least I did. I now break it into quarters, and take a quarter tab every 6 hrs.
    Klutzo

    P.S. Welcome back, Suze!
  11. lucky

    lucky New Member

    what is the difference between Klonopin, Kutapressin and Neurontin? Lucky
  12. twjen

    twjen New Member

    What is zma? I have been on 6mg's of valium a day for last 8 years, have never increased dose, to dr.s surprise. I havent had a panic attack like I used to years ago for several years. Reading this makes me wonder about my sleep though. I would like improved sleep without increasing to any more addictive meds. I am interested to know about what this is you use to help sleep. THank you, Jen