Madwolf: Why so much Armour?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by klutzo, Aug 14, 2003.

  1. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    These questions have been bugging me for awhile. If you get hyperthyroid symptoms from the high dose of Armour you take, as you mentioned you did in one post, then why do you take that much?
    In that same post, you said Cortef stops the hyperthyroid symptoms you'd otherwise have. How does Cortef stop hyperthyroid symptoms, and why do you want to cover them up?
    Are you not worried about losing your bones or having a heart attack?
    If you were a devotee of Dr. Lowe, who thinks fibro is hypothyroid and the meds should be pushed to the max no matter what, then I could see why you'd be doing this, but you are more a fan of Dr. Teitlebaum, are you not? I don't remember anywhere in Dr. Teitlebaum's book where he says to take a dose that is high enough to cause hyper symptoms.
    Both my holistic docs say that to get the correct dose you raise it until you first get hyperthyroid symptoms, and then back off one dose. I'd be interested in your reasoning for doing otherwise.
    I am also very concerned for you!
    Hope you are having a good day today,
    Klutzo
  2. judywhit

    judywhit New Member

    just a question for you...were your thryoid test normal? and when you say go to the highest dose of armour until you feel hyper, what are the symptoms of hyper. I am thinking about adding armour to the glandulars that I take and have a script for 150mg of armour here at the house. I thought that this was to high of a dose to take right off the bat and put it away. I tested negative for throyid problems but doc said here take this anyway???? He has thrown me under the bus on several occassions with meds so I am leary.
    thanks,
    Judy
  3. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    I'd say he's just thrown you under a bus again. Armour should be started at 30 mgs. (some even start at 15 mgs.) and slowly raised. I tried to raise the dose once a week and found out the hard way not to do that. Madwolf is right to say to raise it about every three weeks.
    I am now on 60 mgs. but may have to go back to 45 mgs. due to the hyper feelings I have at 60 mgs. The symptoms are that you can't sleep, and feel like you drank 5 cups of strong coffee. Your pulse may be too fast too, and your eyes feel like they are bugging out of your head.
    Yes, my tests were so-called normal by the OLD normals. The new normal range for TSH is less than 3.0 and less than 2.0 if thyroid or depression problems run in your family. Depression runs in my family (and I suspect undiagnosed thyroid , since the depressed side are all obese). My TSH before treatment was 3.44. It is now down to 2.69, which is still too high, but may not matter anyway.
    Madwolf can explain better than I why the TSH is not reliable. It's how you feel that matters. Do you think you need thyroid? If you are not sure, I would suggest going to the web site of Dr. Bruce Rind, click on the Thyroid box at the top,and then select the table of symptoms of adrenal and thyroid insufficiency, and see how you match up.
    I would also get a different doc, if I were you. One basic fact all Fibro docs should know is how very dose sensitive we are to meds. They can kill us otherwise. While Madwolf is taking a much higher dose than 150 mgs., I know he would not have you start at that dose, which, by the way, is higher than the top dose my doctor will give anyone! I believe starting that high could cause a heart attack if it is too much and you have any heart problem you may not know about .
    take care,
    Klutzo
  4. ssMarilyn

    ssMarilyn New Member

    The new acceptable levels for TSH are .30 - 3.00 Females want to be as close to 1.0 as possible.

    Marilyn :)
  5. judywhit

    judywhit New Member

    I hear ya about the doc. But, there is always a but, huh! He is very wonderful about helping me to manage my pain. So I think I will keep him and go look for another doc for the other stuff. Thank you for the post it was very informative. My tsh level was 1.33.
    Judy
  6. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    I was put on Thyrolar at 60mg..can you tell me where that falls as far as strength level? I know that I need to increase it, as I don't have any hyperthyroid symptoms at this point, but can I double that dose?

    ..have seen a good response with a little more attentive ability (as compared to my prior bout with Synthroid, where no good symptom improvement)..Unlike some people I did test out with hypothroidism on the TSH..I don't have a good doc, right now (mine retired), so would you advise a doubling or what of that dose?

    Thanks for any help,
    Plantscaper
  7. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    Madwolf - Are you saying that because my TSH is not super low at 2.69, that this means I do not have hypothalmic dysfunction? That's what it sounded like you said. I guess I need a clarification.
    Yes, I have every heart disease risk factor except smoking, and my dad had a heart attack when he was 6 months older than I am now. I cannot get them under control because I cannot tolerate any of the drugs to lower the high stuff, and I am already doing everything to raise the good stuff with no results. Same with having thyroid lower the cholesterol. At menopause, mine jumped from 163 to 273. It was at 240 right before I started Armour and has now gone up to 269, and my LDL jumped to 188!

    Plantscaper - I believe 60 mgs. is equal to one grain. Don't double it. Break them in half and raise it by 30mgs. first and stay there for 3 weeks or so before going up again.
  8. JaciBart

    JaciBart Member

    I don't know why but this whole thyroid stuff is so hard for me to grasp, I just don't get it. I hear this talk of how feel feel on the thyroid and I think maybe I can identify in myself the association but I really man not sure. I have tried several different thryoid meds and the only definitive thing for me that is black & white is the fact that I either sweat 600 gallons per day or 20,000 gallons.

    Is there an article or website or somewhere I can find some info that is written to explain it to me in terms a kindergartner would understand???

    I do not always put together the symptom with the source, for instance lately I have been doing the semi-concious sleep thing and here I see where it may be related to my thyroid med, cytomel or my cortisol, but I don't know if that mean up down or sideways on a, b, or add c. I am all confused.

    Jaci
  9. NanceZ

    NanceZ New Member

    I'm with Jaci and am confused about all this thyroid stuff. I did go to Dr Rind's web site and find it full of info. (too full for my brain today apaprently).

    I am in the process of doing the basal temp test every morning for my holistic doc and am not sure what will happen after I report the results. Right now the pattern is very low temps first thing and I think this will show hyperthyroid issues.

    Any easily understood advice as I enter this process?
  10. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    Did not realize it would correspond to Grains/mg..Do you think that the Armour is better?
  11. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    nancez - just let your doctor direct the treatment, if you can't understand it right now. If he is holistic, and knows about taking the am. temps,then he probably knows what he is doing.

    Plantscaper - Yes, I think Armour is far superior because it supplies T1, T2, T3 and T4, wheras Synthroid only supplies T4. Since most of us have our problem in the area of converting T4 to T3, taking something with T3 in it is the only way we will get the help we need.

    BTW, I am now successfully up to taking 60 mgs. (1 grain) and I now have ZERO morning pain and stiffness, even when I don't sleep well. Yahoo!

    Klutzo
  12. ssMarilyn

    ssMarilyn New Member

    You can email me and I can direct you to some pages that will explain this whole complicated TSH, T4 and T3 mess! It's easier than it sounds actually... If you don't know my email addy, you can get it from Shirl or Mikie.

    Marilyn :)
  13. alec

    alec New Member

    I'm am taking Armour Thyroid 1 gr per day, but my doctor has me taking 1/2 gr in the morning and 1/2 gr at 3 to 4 in the afternoon. I didn't notice that anyone else was using it this way and it is difficult to take it on this schedule and still work in the other supplements and medicines I'm supposed to be taking. Is there a reason to split the dose?
  14. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    I have never heard of splitting the dose that way, and I agree it is hard to work with the supps. we need while doing that.
    I take mine at 4 am. when I wake up to take my Blood Pressure pill. That way it is several hours from any minerals I take that may interfere with it's absorption.
    If I were you, I would call my Pharmacist and ask him/her about this. Pharmacists know far more about drugs than docs do, and should be able to tell you if this provides more even coverage, or if there is some other reason for it.
    If you do find there is a good reason for breaking the dose up, will you please post about it, so we can all benefit?
    Klutzo
  15. ssMarilyn

    ssMarilyn New Member

    I've read about this before and it's because taking the whole dose at one time gives some people a real rush, a high...etc... so when it's split into two parts during the day, the Armour is more evenly distributed through the body and not all one big jolt.

    Marilyn :)
  16. CelticLadee

    CelticLadee New Member

    I have been studying at Dr. Bruce Rind's website and here is what he says about splitting doses:

    "If the thyroid condition is more severe, one may require prescription medication. Giving only T4 (e.g. Levothyroxine, Synthroid, Unithroid, Levoxyl etc) is a good choice if T4 is the only missing component. In individuals with poor conversion of T4 to T3, a desiccated thyroid preparation (e.g. Armour Thyroid) often works best because it contains the needed T3 as well. Breaking up the dose into two or three doses daily provides a more stable blood level of T3 and generally produces better results. Taking the daily dose all at once in the morning tends to be stressful on the adrenals and often leaves one feeling depleted by afternoon."

    I have a prescription to fill for Armour Thyroid so I have been studying up so I know something about it before I start taking it. There is lots to learn! I have been reading a lot of your posts Klutzo and they have cleared up some of my questions. My N.D. is on vacation so I have a few for you or anyone that wants to input:

    The last couple of days I have been having a feeling of something stuck in my throat at the base of my neck. Do you know if that is thyroid related? It is really bugging me! Feels like a pill is stuck in there! But I know that is not so.

    Once I begin thyroid treatment does it mean I will have to take these pills for the rest of my life?

    My prescription is for 1 grain - I'm thinking I should start with 1/2 grain in the morning for a week than take 1/2 grain in the morning and then in the afternoon of the following week if the first week goes okay. Does that sound like a good plan to you? Suggestions are valued highly. (I'm nervous about taking anything because I tend to have unheard of reactions to everything I take... lucky me! LOL)

    Thanks in advance. Sure do appreciate all the past posts from Madwolf, Klutzo and others who explained the T3 T4 business and suggestions, etc. Really helped me out.
    My best to you,
    CelticLadee

    [This Message was Edited on 08/15/2003]
  17. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    and like the prior poster did not experience any symptom improvement nor side effects whatsoever..after reading on this board, I have had it changed to Thyrolar, which contains the T/3 and T/4, but don't know if it contains all the other Ts, as indicated by Klutzo about Armour..According to the docs I have encountered, you will have to stay on if for life..

    I have noticed an increased attention span with Thyrolar, but don't think I am on that optimal level, yet, and have not had any negative side effects..Spacing it apart sounds good, if it will help maintaining a more consistent level..Since, you have not been on the Thyroid, taking a smaller amount to begin with at 1/2 grain is probably a good idea..

    Plantscaper
    [This Message was Edited on 08/15/2003]
  18. ssMarilyn

    ssMarilyn New Member

    You said: "The last couple of days I have been having a feeling of something stuck in my throat at the base of my neck. Do you know if that is thyroid related? It is really bugging me! Feels like a pill is stuck in there! But I know that is not so."

    Yes, this is part of thyroid problems and is a real annoyance, sometimes bad enough to keep me up all night long.

    And yes, normally when you start taking thyroid supplements, it will be forever, especially if you take the synthetic forms of thyroid hormone because they tend to mess up the balance of our thyroids even more.

    Here's some info I found just a little bit ago on the net:

    Treating Hypothyroidism
    There are basically two methods of improving a hypothyroid condition. One method involves the use of supplemental thyroid hormones. These hormones can be either synthetic, such as Synthroid, or natural hormones extracted from pigs, such as Armour.

    Another method involves supplying the thyroid gland with all the raw materials necessary for an increase in hormone production. These raw materials include specific iodine and non-hormone glandular supplements.

    I prefer the second method as long as the thyroid gland is still at least partially working. Hormones are very powerful substances that must work in conjunction with each other. Because of this fact, the body has a very sophisticated system of checks and balances to help regulate hormone levels throughout the tissues. When a hormone (such as Synthroid or Armour) is artificially introduced into the body, this delicate balance can be upset. Further, when you supply a hormone that a given gland would normally make on its own, you risk causing the gland to quit making that hormone. If that occurs, you will be forced to supplement the hormone daily for the rest of your life. On the other hand, if you can revitalize a depressed gland through the use of glandular
    supplements, the gland will naturally resume hormone production and you won't need indefinite treatment.

    One of the most effective ways to rebalance the thyroid gland is to take a liquid iodine product called losol. Take four drops of losol in water each day for the first two weeks, and then reduce the dosage to two drops per day. (Note: Under no circumstances should you ingest antiseptic or topical iodine. losol is the only form of iodine recommend for internal usage.) You can often find losol, in larger health food stores.

    If the losol alone does not seem to alleviate the symptoms of hypothyroidism, take three tablets of a glandular product called Thytrophin along with just one drop of losol per day. You can often take Thytrophin in place of prescription thyroid medications. Three tablets of Thytrophin are roughly equivalent to one grain of hormone.

    In addition to using losol and Thytrophin, make sure that you're also using a good multi-vitamin and mineral product. Doing so will ensure that you're getting important trace minerals such as selenium (200 mcg per day) and other components necessary for the production and conversion of thyroid hormones.

    Finally, take steps to reduce your exposure to estrogen-like compounds. Use organic cleansers, pesticides and other household products. And make the switch once and for all to distilled water.

    The length of time needed to obtain results from treating hypothyroidism will vary from individual to individual. Most people begin to see a marked difference in their energy levels and mood within just a few days, but other problems may take longer to resolve. And while correcting an underactive thyroid won't reverse heart disease, it will stop its progression and most likely prevent a future heart
    attack or heart failure. Once you've stopped the progress, you can begin reversing the problem through the use of high quality cardiovascular supplements, lecithin, fresh unsaturated fatty acids, and diet.

    I don't know who wrote the above info, but I've seen it on other sites too...the particular site was an alternative medicine site.

    Marilyn :)
  19. stillafreemind

    stillafreemind New Member

    The holistic nurse I am going to has me on something similar to the second method. She is trying to get the adrenals and thyroid to start working together. My adrenals were really exhausted and my thyroid was trying to make up for it.

    Too soon to tell yet..but I have noticed a feeling of wellness..and so much less anxiety. Do you think that that is a sign that something she has me on is working? Thanks for posting this cause I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one getting treated in this manner! ...Sherry
  20. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    Thanks for answering everyone's questions so thoroughly!
    Aren't you taking Synthroid?
    I am wondering about this natural treatment described above, since I had been told repeatedly that the quality control and dosage standardization are terrible on glandular products (by both of my holistic docs, which is why they use Armour).
    I also wonder if there are any studies proving that glandulars don't also supress the gland from making it's own hormone.
    I did not want to be stuck with taking a med for life, since I believe that the thing that causes Fibro, whatever it may turn out to be, is what supresses the thyroid ( and other glands), and once that was fixed, the thyroid would be OK again.
    Thank you for the explanation about splitting the dose. I will definitely not split mine, since I already have a problem with too much energy in the evenings and at night. My nights and days are reversed and have been ever since I went through puberty. it has caused many problems in my life. I should have been a vampire! I will split it only if my next fasting Cortisol test shows a problem with my adrenals. I eat a lot of high calcium foods during the day, and it would be tough to fit it in. Are you splitting your dose? Are you taking any Cortef as Madwolf says we all should?
    Klutzo