Marshall Protocol

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Mugrat, Apr 16, 2006.

  1. Mugrat

    Mugrat New Member

    Hi all. I've had CFS for over 20 years but luckily have had a great doctor for 17 of them. I have watched him journey through the various treatments and researches into the illness and he is virtually a specialist in chronic "hidden" type illnesses now. Over the past few years many of his CFS patients tested positive and responded to treatment for rickettsia bacteria. Now he is having wider success with another antibiotic treatment called the Marshall Protocol. I've just started the antibiotics. David Marshall is Australin like me but I believe lots of his research etc is done overseas so maybe the treatment is becoming widely known. Too complicated to explain here but I'm wondering if anyone has been / is on the treatment and how they've been affected. Would appreciate any feedback. Meanwhile, here's to good days and better health!
  2. Banka8

    Banka8 New Member

    Hi Mugrat,

    You are so lucky to have found a doctor using the Marshall Protocol.

    I am on the Marshall Protocol and am having ongoing success. It takes time and determinatin but it works. The science behind the MP makes sense. Everthing Dr. Marshall says is going to happen on the MP happens.

    Not many people from the Marshall Protocol post here much anymore but believe me we are healing. Dr. Marshall is having another conference in June in LA, CA. I wish I could attend but I'm still herxing.

    I know by this time next year my CFS will be a thing of the past.

    NO amount of supplements will cure CFS or FM. Some things may make you feel better temporarily but your disease is still there and will return.

    Hope to read your progress report on the MP website.

    You are on the right path to recovery.

    Take care
    Judy
  3. Mugrat

    Mugrat New Member

    Really appreciated your reply. Going through the stage of not knowing what symptoms will pop up with the next antibiotic. Today it's a red,rashy and itchy face with a bit of a fever to top it off. BUT I feel really strong underneath it, like a "normal" person who's got some infection. Hope you continue to improve.
    Cheers,
    Marg
  4. greatgran

    greatgran Member

    I am wondering if the supplements really work. For me seems rest and more rest is the only thing that helps.

    Ouch, I sure can relate to the pill Fear, I have it too, not sure what is wrong with us..If you find out let me know..

    After seeing the homeopathic and getting all the supplements I was so hopeful but today I feel so bad and I am so disappointed..

    I started out slowly with the supplements still haven't added them all but have seen no improvement..If anything feel worse..So not sure where to go from here..

    God Bless,
    greatgran
  5. Mugrat

    Mugrat New Member

    Hi,
    I'm not brave, just desperate for a cure. Have been on Zithromax for the past 3 weeks but only half a tablet every 3 days. Minomycin knocked me around too musch. Have had reactions, but different symptoms each time. This time red itchy rash down the centre of my face plus a vague fluish feeling. Doc says the treatment will derdge up all knods of old symptoms as my immune system now starts to deal with them!!
    Good health. Be brave.
    Marg
  6. Banka8

    Banka8 New Member

    I just noticed that you said David Marshall. Are we talking about the same person? Dr.Trevor Marshall developed the Marshall Protocol. He is an Australian.

    Have you been to the Marshall Protocol website? It's very important to follow the protocol as directed. Are you wearing the proper sunglasses and protecting your skin from the sun and eliminating vitamin D from your diet?

    The medications are very specific and must be ramped very gradually.

    Some doctors all though they are well meaning have tried to put their own spin on the Marshall Protocol.

    Please come to the Marshall Protocol website if you have not already done so and start reading and asking questions of the moderators. That is what they are there for.

    We want you to have success using the MP.

    Take care
    Judy

    Dear Ouch,

    Please visit the MP website. Don't be afraid to ask questions. There are plenty of people there to help you with your fears. I was afraid to take that first pill. My hand was shaking. But I'm so happy I did. Pretty soon I'll be in Phase 3 of the protocol. The beginning of the protocol brought me relief of my sore feet an achilles tendons, then my sore knee and my sore thumb. My bleeding gums are a thing of the past. My hair is in great shape and hardly falls out anymore.. My swollen lymph nodes are shrinking after 30 years. I know it will be another year on the MP before all my problems are addressed but the MP is working.

    The great thing about the MP is that you can read people's progress reports everyday. It really gives you an idea of what to expect.

    Supplements cannot get rid of the cell wall bacteria. Antibiotics alone cannot get rid of the cell wall bacteria. Cell wall bacteria is what is making us sick and messing up our immune system.

    Take care
    Judy


    [This Message was Edited on 04/18/2006]
  7. victoria

    victoria New Member

    it doesn't sound like Trevor Marshall's protocol at all.

    Altho the same abx are being used, it's not being used the way he indicates it should be. And no mention of light avoidance, NoIR glasses, etc... I am on the MP as well.

    So is there a David Marshall doing the (Trevor Marshall) protocol but differently for some reason -- or something vaguely similar with the same last name applied to it?? I hope not, this could get really confusing for others who don't/won't know the difference...

    Please let us know, mugrat, and clear up our confusion.

    Thanks,
    Victoria
  8. Banka8

    Banka8 New Member

    Yes I'm concerned that Mugrat is not going to benefit from Trevor's knowledge.

    How are you doing on the MP Victoria? What Phase are you in? I am doing great. I'll be ready for Phase 3 pretty soon. I can hardly wait so see what symptoms are relieved with the third antibiotic.

    Take Care
    Judy
    [This Message was Edited on 04/18/2006]
  9. Mugrat

    Mugrat New Member

    Apologies everyone. Definitely Trevor. My doctor is David Mitchell and is very careful about using the MP and very up with all the important details and latest research.

    I'm being good and following directions carefully. I've found it was ok during the past few weeks as I was on sick leave from work anyway. I know it will be harder to cope with the reactions when I return to teaching in a couple of weeks.

    Seems like a lucky (or unlucky) dip as to what symptoms emerge following an antibiotic dose. Wierd, but all the reactions are like symptoms I have had at some stage over the ill years so I'm hoping each reaction is killing off a few more of the little horribles in me.

    Thanks for your replies. All the best to you all.
    Marg
  10. Mugrat

    Mugrat New Member

    OOOps, missed this bit out before. There are so many MP sites. I have info from one that my doc recommended but it sounds like you guys know another one that's interactive.
    Can someone let me know, please? Ta.

    Also great to hear that some of you are doing well. All the best as you get on with it. For those of you like me who were anti - antibiotics or afraid of the effects, give it a try. My doc has been up there trying to fix people like me for so many years now, and this is the first time I've seen him really excited about the results he's seeing in some of his long term patients. That's why I'm biting the bullet and doing the MP properly now without cutting corners and trying to avoid letting people know I shouldn't be in sun etc.

    Thanks.
    Marg
  11. Banka8

    Banka8 New Member

    Hi Mugrat,

    Glad to hear you are on the right track. You need to come join us at the Marshall Protocol website and register. It's nice to have a record of your progress. It's very helpful to everyone that's on the protocol to read progress reports and offer support.

    I don't know if I'm allowed to give the website address here at immunesupport. But if you google Marshall Protocol it will be the first two website's that appear.

    Dr. Marshall is having a conference in LA, California this June so you might want to read about that. I would love to attend but can't. Exciting things are happening reguarding the MP and the website keeps you up to date.

    I'm so glad you have a smart doctor who is willing to help you.

    Hang in there we are all going to recover and get on with our lives.

    Take care
    Judy
    [This Message was Edited on 04/19/2006]
  12. Mugrat

    Mugrat New Member

    Hi, Judy,

    Will find that site ASAP. Thanks for your encouragement.

    It's good to hear you are improving. After a term off sick, I'm starting back at work teaching very soon. Had a visit with my doc today to strengthen my resolve not to be a wimp when the going gets tougher. Had a great conversation with him. He answered lots of my questions and we always manage to have a bit of a laugh even on my bad days. So I feel very positive today, Every time I feel lousy, whatever the symptoms, I think I'll try to celebrate that some of the little buggers have bitten the dust!!!

    Here's to continued resolve and a return to health ASAP!!

    Marg (Mugrat)
  13. Banka8

    Banka8 New Member

    Yes in the beginning I was more heart shakey and tired amd sleepy. I don't have the heart palpatations anymore and my fatigue is getting better. Lot's of symptoms are resolving. I have noticed in the last month I have seen a definate improvement in the fatigue.

    You might experience an improvement in some symptoms in the first few months maybe even weeks other problems will take longer. I think it depends on how sick you are to begin with.

    The fatigue is my main problem now and that seems to be getting better. It's a different kind of fatigue feeling anyway. Not a toxic sick feeling anymore. However I am going to start the third antibiotic and that is going to cause increased herx so I don't know what's coming. This third antibiotic is supposed to help clear the bacteria that cause our brain fog. I have plenty of that.

    I'm really excited to be this far along on the MP.

    My 1-25D levels were high at 53 and my 25D was 12. That was in January of 2005. I haven't tested recently. I had been cutting out vitamin D from my diet for 8 months before I had the tests done and I was feeling so much better.

    Take care everyone and hang in there.

    Judy
  14. Mugrat

    Mugrat New Member

    Hi and thanks for your responses.

    Hi,Ouch.
    I'm currently walking round with a face like a blotchy apple and feeling like I've got fleas all over! On Zithromax because Minomycin was too rough on me. Had a bad relapse of lots of CFS symptoms so was off work for 10 weeks. Now I am getting the Herx reactions but feel quite strong underneath.Does that make sense to you? It wouldn't to anyone who hasn't had this stufpid thing. Seem to get different reactions and they come and go too. I get a few hours sometimes when I feel quite good. Then for no apparent reason the itch or the aches or the rash ot the foggy head come back. Odd, but my doctor told me yesterday it's pretty normal and he is delighted for me!!!

    So looks like red faces are part of it for some of us. I've never been a blushing type but I seem to be getting really good at it recently!

    All the best.
    Marg

  15. Mugrat

    Mugrat New Member

    Hi, Judy,

    It's wonderful to hear you're so far along the MP and bviously appreciating good effects.

    Knw what you mean about different types of fatigue. I am usually able to work and do things but feel intermittent symptoms like aches, sweats, foggy brain, all that stuff, but the tiredness I get is not crushing. I can get through it. BUT occasionally, like the past 10 weeks,I think Iget what you call the "toxic sick feeling". I'm looking forward to that being a distant memory!

    Registered on the MP site. Thanks for your help with that. Looks interesting.

    Take care and I'm wishing you lots of success as you get on with the next stage.

    Cheers,
    Marg
  16. Banka8

    Banka8 New Member

    Keep up the good work. But expect to feel the herx and hormonal adjustments creep up on you.

    I hope you are reading the Marshall Protocol website and are registered there. It's important to read other people's experiences.

    Light and sun avoidance is very important to keep symptoms tolerable. Stay on your vitamin D avoidance diet. Rest as much as possible. Your body is trying to heal and it's going through a lot dealing with the toxins from the bacteria.

    The MP is a journey to recovery and it takes time. But we'll get there.

    Take care

    Judy
  17. victoria

    victoria New Member

    if you have skipped the minocycline completely, it seems like you should go back and do a lot of reading at the marshallprotocol site...

    Also, your doctor can also call Trevor Marshall personally or email him to talk to him., there is a special section at that website for physicians...

    And, you did not say whether or not you are avoiding light and have the NoIR glasses? & you did not mention if you are taking benicar? and if you have quit supplements?

    I am just hoping you are doing it properly to get the real benefits... and I hope anyone who is interested in this protocol or is supposed to be doing it has taken the time to read Trevor Marshall's site, not someone else's, and to take the time to understand it thoroughly...

    Judy/banka, HI, I had to take a break due to complications here at home, turned out to be much longer than I expected altho I haven't had many symptoms return that were resolved, other than the fog and fatigue :(

    I am going to start Phase 2 soon... if things can quiet down just for a few days here, sigh...

    I do KNOW, I am going to MAKE them quiet down!!! lolol

    glad to hear you are doing so well!
    Victoria


    [This Message was Edited on 04/22/2006]
  18. UnicornK

    UnicornK New Member

    Would someone explain what is involved here? It sounds interesting.

    Thanks.
  19. victoria

    victoria New Member

    It is fairly involved, as you can probably already tell... you can go to the marshallprotocol site to get an introduction,

    And there are several articles in the library here on the marshall protocol, this is the interview with Trevor Marshall in 2004 that piqued my interest:
    ------------

    http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/ID/5784/T/CFIDS_FM/
    searchtext/marshall%20protocol


    The Marshall Protocol for Treating Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Interview with Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.
    ImmuneSupport.com

    07-06-2004

    Editor's note: Many CFS patients are buzzing about the marshall protocol, originally developed for Sarcoidosis patients, for relieving their symptoms. Here is an exclusive interview with Trevor Marshall, Ph.D., who devised the protocol and explains why he believes it works for CFS patients.

    ImmuneSupport.com: Please introduce yourself to our readers by giving some background on your medical training and practice

    Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.: I graduated Bachelor of Engineering (w/w statistics) from the University of Adelaide in 1974. I spent a year in Papua New Guinea teaching at the University of Technology in Lae, and then spent 6 years teaching at Curtin University in Western Australia. During that tenure I received my Masters Degree and commenced my PhD Research at the University of Western Australia, in Biomedical Engineering. It was an exciting time. Another UWA student, Dr Barry Marshall (no relation) had just discovered that the bacterium Helicobacter Pylori was the cause of stomach ulcers, and the teaching hospital where we did our clinical research ('Sir Charles Gairdner') was full of 'new ideas'. My mentors were convinced that we needed to develop a totally different approach to medicine.

    I researched Infertility and Cryptochidism with Ted Keough and Diabetes in Tim Welborn's group. Ted found a way to treat infertility by pulsatile infusion of a hormone called GnRH, and resolved Cryptorchidism without surgery, using pulsatile infusions of the hormone LHRH. Tim's group explored the continuous infusion of insulin in Diabetes.

    After moving to the USA in 1982 I took some time off to study with Mike Albisser's group at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto. 'Sick Kids' was a world leader in diabetes research at the time, and our research team included MDs and PhDs from all over the world. It was an amazing experience, and my doctoral thesis, "Mathematical Modeling of the Insulin Glucose Homeostasis in Healthy and Diabetic Individuals", was accepted in 1985.

    Soon after that, I came to the realization that sunlight was a factor in immune disease, but it took many years for all the elements of the Th1 immune reaction to gel together in my mind. Late in 1999 I noticed that a new class of drugs, "Angiotensin Receptor Blockers' (ARBs), were affecting the psyche of Sarcoidosis patients. Since I knew that ARBs should not have any such effect I commenced a full-time sabbatical in early 2001 to try and figure out exactly what was happening. The result of that research was a pathogenesis for Sarcoidosis, published in 2002. Since then we have conducted an Internet-based study of ARB and antibiotic therapy in Sarcoidosis, and are now exploring how our success can be generalized to all the Th1 immune diseases. The Autoimmunity Research Foundation is acting as a focus for our current efforts (AutoimmunityResearch.org)

    ImmuneSupport.com: I recently learned that a number of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) patients are finding success with following your sarcoidosis treatment protocol. Could you explain what CFS and sarcoidosis patients might have in common that could explain this?

    Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.: Sarcoidosis is a Th1 inflammatory disease which can damage the lungs, heart, eyes, brain, liver, kidneys and soul. Patients are still being told it has no known cause and no known cure.

    Tiny 'pleomorphic' bacteria have been photographed living within the cells of the immune system of sarcoidosis patients. Emil and Barbara Wirostko produced stunning electron microscope photographs of immune phagocytes each containing hundreds of tiny bacterial forms, around 0.01 - 0.025 microns in diameter, living in colonies within the very cells (phagocytes) which are supposed to kill these bacterial parasites. One of the Wirostko photographs can be found at URL http://www.autoimmunityresearch.org/wirostko-fig3.jpg

    It is important to understand that these bacteria are 'coccoid' (round, and very, very, small), 10 to 100 times smaller than the shapes these same pleomorphic bacteria will take when they enter the bloodstream.

    We found that you can measure a hormone (in the blood) resulting from the Th1 inflammation produced by these tiny bacteria, and that it is elevated in Sarcoidosis patients. It is also often elevated in CFS patients, indicating that the inflammation of CFS is often very similar to that of Sarcoidosis.

    ImmuneSupport.com: Some researchers (including Garth Nicolson, Ph.D.) and physicians believe that multiple co-infections including bacterial and mycoplasmal infections, play a key role in the onset and pathology of CFS and FM. To what extent are bacterial and mycoplasmal infections involved in sarcoidosis, and do you believe your methods for treating those infections in sarcoidosis apply to CFS and FM patients?

    Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.: Multiple co-infections of antibiotic-resistant bacteria can act in unison because many of the species have evolved a similar technique for evading the immune system.

    These bacteria live in the cytoplasm of phagocyte cells, and directly stimulate a protein called NuclearFactor-kappaB to cause the continuous release of inflammatory chemicals, a Th1 cytokine cascade. This is the source of the inflammation driving the CFS symptoms.

    Where our work diverges from that of Dr. Nicolson is the manner in which we control the hormones Angiotensin II and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin-D so as to weaken the defense mechanism of these tiny bacteria, and allow the immune system itself to start to recognize and kill them. We then use common (oral) antibiotics, at a very low dosage, to help the immune system deal with the parasites. It is the immune system which kills these tiny resistant microbes, helped along by low-dose antibiotics.

    ImmuneSupport.com: What is your treatment protocol for bacterial and mycoplasmal infections?

    Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.: Our treatment protocol is split into two phases. The first phase lasts for about three months and is focused on getting the bacterial load down to a point where the endotoxins are no longer life-threatening. Then, in phase 2, we use additional (low-dose) antibiotics, making it almost impossible for the resistant bacteria to evade the immune system.

    Phase 1 is available online at http://SarcInfo.com/phase1.pdf

    We focus on blocking genetic protein transcription, the process whereby the tiny bacteria use the bacterial 30S and 50S Ribosomal Nucleic Acid subunits to produce the proteins they need to hide from the immune system. In phase 2 we block multiple pathways for 50S RNA synthesis, which allows the immune system to recognize (and kill) even the strains which have evolved a resistance to standard antibiotics.

    ImmuneSupport.com: How do you go about improving immune function in your patients what is your protocol for that objective, that could crossover from sarcoidosis to CFS patients?

    Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.: The two hormones critical to this inflammatory process are Angiotensin II and the seco-steroid 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin-D.

    Blockade of Angiotensin II weakens these bacteria to the point where they can be more easily killed, and reducing the 1,25-D makes it harder for the bacteria to slip in and out of the cells they have infected.

    We use the Angiotensin Receptor Blocker 'Olmesartan Medoxomil' (Benicar/Olmetec/Votum), dosed approx. every 6 hours, to blockade the Angiotensin II receptors in the inflamed tissue.

    The seco-steroid 1,25-D is the active hormone resulting from sunlight on our skin, and the Vitamin D we ingest. Both these sources of 1,25-D have to be attenuated if these bacteria are to be killed.

    ImmuneSupport.com: Are you currently treating any patients with CFS and/or FM, or have you in the past? If so, what is your strategy for treating these patients?

    Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.: I am a researcher with a PhD, not an MD, and I cannot treat patients directly. I help their physicians understand the disease process, so that those physicians can work with the patients to cure the disease. We are also working with several LLMDs.

    I, and my colleagues, have published a number of papers describing all the elements of our discoveries, and, during 2002, we set up a clinical trial at the Internet site SarcInfo.com so that we could track the progress of the first patients using our protocol.

    Recently Dr. Scott Taylor and Penny Houle have started a message board at Yahoo Groups called "MarshallProtocol", and CFS patients have used the info from that site to work with their physicians to implement the protocol. It is still early days, but it seems the protocol is working just as well for these CFS sufferers as it did for the Sarcoidosis patients, most of whom have progressed to 'cure' over the last 2 years.

    ImmuneSupport.com: In one of your recent research articles, you discuss Lessons from Lyme Disease. Many chronic Lyme patients experience symptoms very similar to CFS and FM, and in fact, it is not unusual for someone with Lyme Disease to be mis-diagnosed with CFS or FM. Could you discuss this issue, and talk a bit about how you diagnose and treat patients with Lyme and other spirochetal diseases?

    Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.: Whether the inflammation (which gives rise to the CFS symptoms) is caused by Borrelia, Bartonella, Chlamydia, or any other bacterium with the ability to change into these tiny pleomorphic shapes (also called 'L-forms', 'Cell Wall Deficient', 'Cystic', 'Mycoplasma'), the inflammation needs to be treated the same way. The microbes seem to be resistant to standard antibiotics, even IV antibiotics, and have to be killed by our immune system itself. We have defined what is necessary to achieve that.

    Diagnosis can often be done from bloodwork assay. If the level of 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D in the blood is elevated (above 38-45pg/ml), or the 25-hydroxyvitamin-D depressed (below 20 ng/ml) then it is pretty certain that a Th1 process is in play (note: all blood must be frozen during transit to the labs for these tests to be accurate).

    Sometimes it is quicker and cheaper to apply the angiotensin blockade as a 'therapeutic probe.' If there are profound psychic and systemic effects from using Benicar, a drug which usually only changes the blood pressure, then that is a pretty good indication of the presence of Th1 inflammation, and an indication it is worth starting on our protocol.

    ImmuneSupport.com: For those patients out there struggling with dubious diagnoses, do you recommend any specific laboratory tests to determine what infections they might have?

    Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.: Unfortunately today's laboratory tests are of little use until the immune system starts to recognize these intracellular invaders. Hundreds of these tiny bacteria can live inside a single cell. They are too small to be seen with conventional optical microscopes. The host cells live for a relatively long time. There is little apoptosis (cell death), so very few bacteria are released into the bloodstream, and they are hard to detect with lab equipment.

    Because they live in stable symbiosis with our immune system, there are no antibodies created. The bacteria live within the cells in stable colonies which cannot be attacked by the body's normal defenses. Lab tests will not find antibodies to these bacteria.

    PCR is capable of sensing the occasional cell apoptosis, but the resulting low DNA concentrations would be regarded as insignificant by most labs.

    The biochemical symbiosis is so delicate that it is virtually impossible to culture these bacteria outside the body. Just as the bacteria causing Leprosy (mycobacterium leprae) and the bacteria causing Syphilis (treponema pallidum) are nearly impossible to culture, I expect it is unlikely we will be able to culture these Th1 pleomorphs until we fully understand the biochemistry needed to sustain them. No lab has been able culture these bacteria up to this point in time (with the possible exception of Lida Mattman's research at Wayne State University).

    So I guess the next task for us is to start working with labs to help devise tests which can produce a reliable diagnosis.

    ImmuneSupport.com: Do you have any parting advice for CFS and FM patients seeking appropriate, effective treatment?

    Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.: I would just say "don't take 'no' for an answer." For the last 100 years Sarcoidosis patients have been told that there is no known cause and no known cure for their disease (much the same prognosis being given to CFS and FM patients). The diagnosis of chronic sarcoidosis is regarded by pulmonologists as irreversible, they know their patient is dying, and that it is just a matter of time.

    Yet the Sarcoidosis folks who have been helping us develop our protocol, are becoming healthy again. Not just 10%, or 25%, but close to 100% are recovering their lives and their families. They have variously reported regaining cognitive focus, stamina, and stable gait, and resolving chronic pain, paresthesias and visual disturbances. Some have been able to discard wheelchairs, braces and supplementary oxygen.

    "It is not the antibacterial therapy" that is helping these patients, say 'the experts', "it is just spontaneous remission."

    Well, personally, I don't care what they call it, most of us will take this antibiotic-induced "spontaneous remission" any day, as long as it gives us back our health, our lives and our families. Don't take 'no' for an answer.
    ----------------------------------------

    I would really encourage you to look up the marshall protocol site if you are still interested!

    All the best,
    Victoria

  20. UnicornK

    UnicornK New Member

    This was very informative. I'll have to look deeper into it.