ME/CFS, toxins, and lymphatic drainage

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by tansy, Aug 3, 2005.

  1. tansy

    tansy New Member

    Doctor takes stigma out of 'yuppie flu'

    By Deborah Haile

    Dr Raymond Perrin

    LEADING scientist Raymond Perrin believes he has proof that chronic fatigue syndrome - once dubbed yuppie flu - has a physical cause.

    For years sufferers of CFS - which includes ME - have lived under the stigma of being diagnosed with a condition that many dismissed as being in the mind.

    But Manchester osteopath Dr Perrin believes he has proved that the debilitating syndrome is the physical result of the way the body deals with toxins.

    He believes a picture of varicose lymphatic vessels taken during a research project at Salford University shows for the first time the "backflow" of lymphatic drainage that he believes is the cause of toxin build-up.

    And it is this accumulation of toxins in the central nervous system, which Dr Perrin believes is the cause of conditions such as chronic fatigue syndrome and ME.

    Valves

    Dr Perrin, who runs clinics in Prestwich, central Manchester and London, said: "Normally these vessels are the size of the thinnest pencil line and you can't usually see them without a magnifying glass, but the fact they are swollen like this is significant. There is a backflow against the valves.

    "Very rarely can you see these, but with every person I have seen in the last 16 years with chronic fatigue syndrome you can feel them under the surface. It means this person has had ME for a number of years."

    Until now experts have believed that valves in the lymphatic vessels only allowed the flow of fluids in one direction. But Dr Perrin says these varicose lymphatic vessels - which resemble varicose veins but are the same colour of the skin instead of a bluish colour - are the proof that the backflow exists, when vessels are damaged, allowing toxins to concentrate in the central nervous system.

    He revealed the picture at a seminar at Salford University.
    He hopes to publish it in a respected medical journal later in the year.

    Margaret Cannon, who had to give up work because of the condition, said: "After about three months of Raymond's treatment my concentration was restored and the symptoms improved greatly."

    Source Manchester Evening News August 3rd, 2005

    [This Message was Edited on 08/06/2005]
  2. Rosiebud

    Rosiebud New Member

    hopefully he'll publish that along with his findings.

    Thanks again, you keep bringing hope to us.

    love
    Rosie
  3. neen85

    neen85 New Member

    This is unlike anything I have ever read before. I would be interested to know what his treatment consists of also. Great post! Daneen
  4. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    I look forward to hearing more about this. It seems at least once a week now, we are hearing more evidence of the severity of CFIDS/ME. Just the fact that when docs look, there are symptoms which can be seen or tested for is a major breakthrough.

    Now, the questions become, does this lymphatic backflow cause our illnesses or do our illnesses damage the lymphatic system and cause it to malfunction. Hopefully, either way, there is a treatment for this.

    Thanks, Tansy.

    Love, Mikie
  5. tansy

    tansy New Member

    has been helping PWME in the UK for some years now.

    Many of us are aware of our own poor lymphatic flow and the problems through a build up of toxins; I have no doubt this is why so many of us herx severely when taking antomicrobials and/or struggle with traditional detox protocols.

    Tansy
  6. victoria

    victoria New Member

    this is an osteopathic technique? Interesting, wonder if anyone in US offers it? -- didn't see any links about it in this country on google search.

    also Tansy, didn't see where he had any studies on it either - do you know if he's had any done?

    Thanks as always,
    Victoria
  7. tansy

    tansy New Member

    was done a while ago but a quick google search has not brought it up. Like most treatments it was not suitable for everyone, I suspect for many it needs to be as an adjunct rather than just on it's own.

    Dr Wright included Raymond Perrin's work in a long article he wrote a few years ago. Here's an extract from the article, I have included the part on FM because it may also be relevant to others reading this thread.

    **Raymond Perrin, has shown in a controlled study, that Lymphatic massage techniques significantly improved symptoms in sufferers by 40% above that of a control group. He feels that the explanation for this lies in the increased afferent sympathetic tone from the body to the brain. This causes reversal of lymphatic flow, as the myofibrils in the major lymph vessels are directly innervated by the sympathetic nervous system. An excess of activity causes reversal of flow and re-bathing of the cells with cellular waste products and toxins, both endogenous and exogenous.

    The elevation of sympathetic activity may arise from mechanical problems around the cervico-thoracic spine, where the peri-neuronal lymphatic cuff around spinal nerve roots may be damaged. Accidental damage through nasal trauma or head injury may be important to the cribriform plate area, the other important drainage point for lymph from the neuro-axis.

    A history of trauma to the head, nose, or neck can often be found on history taking. Also, nasal blockage from allergy could impair lymphatic drainage, something you often find in patients. Congenital problems causing anatomical abnormalities are also a distinct possibility. Of course, elevation of sympathetic tone can arise from many causes. It may be central in the brain, or peripheral, e.g. when there is pain, stress, inflammatory conditions or glycaemic dysregulation.

    Raymond is currently working on a prospective controlled study with the Radiologists at the University of Manchester. They are using specialised MRI scan techniques to reveal these lymphatic problems radiologically. He hopes once again to show improvement with treatment, matched by radiological changes on MRI scans. Further clogging of the lymphatic system, I feel, could be due to immune hyperactivity, hypercoagulability, but more of that later. Direct measurement of lymph fluid abnormalities has as yet not been performed.

    There are reports that spinal surgery is helping some Fibromyalgia (FM) patients. The suggestion is that the TORG ratio is altered in the cervical spine. This is a comparison of the diameter of the bony spinal canal and the spinal cord, i.e. there is a mild degree of cervical stenosis. In five out of six of my patients who had MRI scans reported as normal, review using TORG ratio measurements revealed that they all have cervical stenosis.

    In the USA, Rosner reports that decompression laminoplasty and duroplasty resulted in 50% of 48 Fibromyalgia patients improving on symptom scoring. Certainly, spinal problems, such as radial disc tears and leaks, posterior spinal ligament irritation, and frank disc protrusions, seem commoner in Fibromyalgia patients, according to personal communication from Mr M Knight, Consultant Spinal surgeon.

    I wonder if the spinal stenosis is interfering with perineuronal lymphatic drainage from nerve roots. Further research is planned in this area. A high level of Substance P is found in their CSF compared with ME patients. This may account for the increase in pain levels. Neuroendocrine and imaging studies also suggest that in Fibromyalgia, hyperexcitability of the spinal NMDA receptors increases ascending sensory transmission to the brain resulting in increased pain perception. Also poor capillary blood flow, increases in glycolytic ATP production and lack of GH / IGF-1 levels resulting in poor tissue repair would contribute. Whilst on the subject of FM patients, there have been studies suggesting a genetic linkage.

    In a study which looked at forty families, where 2 or more first degree relatives were affected, a significant linkage of Fibromyalgia to the HLA region was found (p=0.028.)





  8. tansy

    tansy New Member

    of Raymond Perrin's work on his web site. It's a shame Ralph is away, I have mentioned Raymond Perrin's work before but he must have missed those posts.

    There are many with these DDs who have spinal issues. My thoracic spine was hypermobile during the early years of my illness, but even with yoga it became less so over time. Now I've learned for all my spinal problems yoga was the last thing I should have been doing, pilates would have been better.

    In my case first lower spine, pelvis and foot issues caused physical problems (heriditary); but it took neck trauma to trigger long term health problems two years before acute onset ME/CFS.

    Although I know toxins and pathogens make and keep me ill, I have always been tryiing to identify why, in part because detoxing and die offs have strong and adverse effects on me so I learned the hard way to proceed with care. A lot in my case appears to be a mix of genetics and then physical events which my body became progressively less able to cope with.

    Recently Nanjee posted about mechanical causes of sleep/breathing disruptions, more light bulb moments - more connections and more explanations. Now I just need to get luck with the lottery so I can fund what I need to do next.

    Tansy



  9. victoria

    victoria New Member

    I would love to try the lymphatic massage in particular, makes a lot of sense... but would also need to win the lottery, sigh!

    best,
    Victoria
  10. tansy

    tansy New Member

    I cannnot c & p it here but you can read it at
    http://www.salford.ac.uk/news/details/316

    T
  11. foggyfroggy

    foggyfroggy Guest

    Oh, this makes SO much sense for me! My onset was after some forceful chiro manipulation of my neck combined with ongoing stress and a chemical exposure. I have always felt that the neck was one of the keys!

    Cheney feels that Lymphatic movement is very important as do several other doctors and natural healing sort of authors such as Dr. Weil and Harvey Diamond just to name a couple. The toxin thing makes so much sense! A sort of closed feedback loop of poisoning.

    The Lymph system is an integral part of our intestinal detox system so that may explain some of the digestive problems that are so charqcteristic too.

    Very important stuff in my opinion and probably one reason some people find so much relief in the craniosacral therapy, and things that move increase Lymph flow like massage and the hydrotherapy and rebounder exercises that Cheney and Diamond reccommend.

    Plus, work on those stress handling techniques people!

    Love, Gretchen
  12. davebhoy

    davebhoy New Member

    this makes sense to me, although i m not sure if its a symptom or a cause.

    whenever i used to have a massage there were certain areas in my body that i would have to be careful to point out were not to be massaged. otherwise i would get a relapse. thinking about it now the areas seem to be places with lymph nodes - the neck, hips and groin. maybe by massaging these areas the blockages were momentarily removed and all the built up toxins were released in one go, triggering a relapse.

    i have always had a lot of trouble with my hips and neck since getting cfs.
  13. JenniferAnn539

    JenniferAnn539 New Member

    this was an interesting post.

    does anyone know if there has been any additional publication on this topic. (unfortunately, I am not up to doing searches myself...)

  14. Jen102

    Jen102 New Member

    It wasn't yet available when the post was first made, but apparently is now. Has anyone purchased it? Is it a how to, or just a teaser? Thanks. Jen102
  15. bpmwriter

    bpmwriter New Member

    hi all,

    interesting post. one of the oddities about my illness is that i get ill whenever i do heavy stretching. this seems odd to the doctors i mention it to, but they usually shrug it off in the end. to me though, this has always had great significance, and it all points to the sudden movement of toxins in the lymph system. here's the big question: is lymph drainage massage a good idea? in a normal, this would drain the lymph system and get things moving again. but aren't we fighting an uphill battle if our lymph systems are dysfunctional? it seems they'll back right up again.

    i believe this is why walking is so very, VERY important. i suppose rebounding has the same effect. bottom line, we could all benefit from light, daily exercise. it's easy to write off simple movement and say what's the point?, but given the decision between moving or lounging, i believe we're better off moving.

    eddie
  16. painandagony

    painandagony New Member

    I just read this post about lymphatic drainage for the first time tonight. What was the course of treatment that helped you?
    thanks
  17. LittleBluestem

    LittleBluestem New Member

    This is very interesting. When I was still working, I took a vacation to a spa for some serious R & R. I tried a variety of massage and detox treatments. I was surprised to find how relaxing the lymphatic drainage massage was.

    When I commented on this to the massage therapist, she said that was because it 'reset' the (fill in the blank) nervous system. Unfortunately I cannot now recall which part of the NS that she said. I have been wondering if it was autonimic, since the autonomic NS is up-regulated in CFS.

    I have been wondering if lymphatic drainage massage would help people with CFS for that reason. Since most of us could not afford it even if we had access to it, it is rather a moot point.
  18. Paracelsus

    Paracelsus New Member

    Lymphatic system dysfunction is just one part of the puzzle for many. The question to ask is: where is this burden of toxins coming from? Look to find the source.


    DIY

    Medical intervention with invasive surgery and expensive massage may be affordable to some. But the rest of us want healing techniques we can apply ourselves.

    Anyone know of safe lymphatic massage that can be learned and practiced at home?
  19. Tantallon

    Tantallon New Member

    I've wondered about this too.
    Great imfo here Tansy.
  20. Jen102

    Jen102 New Member

    about whether their video demonstrates the technique and would be helpful for me in self-treatment. I will let you know what they say. Jen102