Measuring your degree of dysfunction by testing Killer Cells

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Katy47, Jan 10, 2008.

  1. Katy47

    Katy47 New Member

    This is SO important for validation of your dysfunction. You must know how low your killer cell count is. It's correlated with degree of dysfunction: the lower the count, the sicker you are. It was proven in a study and sure makes sense to me, as my count is only 14. It should be 30-170 according to my doctor. He also said I'm vulnerable to cancer with a low count.

    To read the whole study, go to

    "Decreased Natural Killer Cell Activity Is Associated with Severity of Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome
    Emmanuel A. Ojo Amaize, Edward J. Conley, and James B. Peter
    From Specialty Laboratories, Incorporated, Santa Monica, California.
    and the Fatigue Clinic of Michigan, Flint, Michigan."

    For my personal example of low immune markers correlating with my infections, read my post!

    Hugs to all,

  2. bigmama2

    bigmama2 New Member

    hi katy!

    do you mean the test of nk cell function? also known as (nk cell LU30)?

    if you do - mine is 12. not good. a year ago it was 27.

    not sure if many people on here have had this important test.

    the whole cancer thing freaks me out, so i try not to think about it.

  3. bigmama2

    bigmama2 New Member

  4. munch1958

    munch1958 Member

    I'd like to get a CD57 count too.

    The Quest Natural Killer cell test that I had showed a 30 but it's not the same test as the CD57 or Stricker panel.
  5. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    I think this is absolutely right. When I finally found an infectious disease doc who had a clue .. (joe brewer in Mo.. Fantastic doc!..Huge waiting list!) he tested this.

    My NKcell activity was FIVE on a scale of 8-170. Yeah, it was a bad day when I got those results.

    Need to retest.

    He also told me that was a big cancer risk. He put me on transfer factor..I know he's also recommeneding VegEPA and globs of vitamisn, includign Mg, adn Vit D.

    Havent' seen him in a while. ON yasko now.

    Thanks Katy!

  6. Katy47

    Katy47 New Member

    I'd like to know more about the CD57 and Stricker Panel. You don't have to go into great detail, I was just curious.

    I've been struggling for years but this past fall I really crapped out, and had to quit work end of Oct. The low NK count I got around the time I quit, and I would assume it's not much better as the study says the low count correlates with the degree of impairment.

    I'm waiting to see what my Doxy and antiviral regimen does, as wel as whatever I can afford in the way of supplements and thyroid, etc.,

    I'm a bit leary of the claims that one product can get the NK cell count up all by itself. I would think it takes a combination of treatments to get better. My doctor has me on Epicor, a yeast discovered to be beneficial for immune function.

    Deliarose and Bigmama, since your counts were way down there where I am, I'd like to know if you'er as dysfunctional as I am . . . on the couch 3/4 of the time or more?

    [This Message was Edited on 01/11/2008]
  7. jess

    jess New Member

    HI Katy, My last NK cell test about 3 years ago was in the normal range. It was near 100. However, it has not been repeated. My CD-57 test on the other hand was 48. Normal is 60-100. So now they think after 30+ years I may have Lyme disease. I am going to start some herbals soon. Jess
  8. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    It's all over the map. Waxes and wanes, esp. cognitive function, but probably better than what you describe.

    For a start, I sleep really well, without meds or supps, so that helps.

    The methylation protocol, or more like teh yasko protocol turned it around for me.

    It's pretty comprehensive.. and down the road I may do AVs or ABX.. but yasko says you have to be methylating to make viruses active.. and without that you're wasting your time with AVs.

    So first, I am workign on removing methylation block, improving immune function, neurotransmitters etc.. then I may add in Rxs to help kill off accumulated viruses, bugs.

    Rich Van K explains what I'm doing in his posts. It's a slog, but I feel like I am dealing with teh root cause and I can see light at the end of the tunnel.

    I also do TFs..

  9. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    Katy.. thinking about this some more, I realised that I spent most of 2005 & 2006 in bed or house-bound.. completely zombie-fied.

    I had forgotten how bad I was actually. Getting to a dr's apptmetn was a major event in my day.. adn usually the only one.

    I've come a long way since then.
  10. Katy47

    Katy47 New Member

    I'm taking Doxycycline for mycoplasma and chlamydia pneumonia titers, as well as that elusive Lyme which I might have gotten false negatives on.

    I have a prescription for Acyclovir which I really should finally pick up from the pharmacy, but I felt I needed to do the Doxy first and foremost. That's for high titers of EBV, HPV6, and CMV.

    Deliarose, it's interesting your doctor also felt free to scare you about the cancer thing linked to low NK cells! Personally, I'm more afraid of MRSA or something weird like that as a result of my low count. My family is so cancer free, it's scary.

    I'd like to know more about the methylation or Yasko protocol. It's just that I'm going through too much upheaval to be really disciplined about that sort of thing.

    [This Message was Edited on 01/11/2008]
  11. grace54

    grace54 New Member

    Below is an excerpt from an immunologist that shows we can raise our cell activity. In much of my research I kept finding factors such as stress, diet and behavior as factors as well. Even with my low count a year ago no Dr. seemed to think to address this situation and I'm not sure why.

    I was also interested as to how it relates to my auto-immune thyroiditis as My immune system is reved up in that respect. I also found it interesting that this Dr. could normalise NK cell activity but could not reverse the symtoms in CFS patients, This CFS has confounded Dr's for a long time but there is hope on the horizon.

    Dr. Vodjani Yes, in relation to low natural killer cell activity for many years, it was known that individuals taking antioxidants such as beta carotene, Vitamin E, Vitamin C improved the level of their natural killer cell activity and also for many years we knew that certain physicians giving IV intravenous Vitamin C to cancer patients, they survived longer.

    But they never could find what the mechanism of action of Vitamin C. For that reason, since for many years I was working on natural killer cell activity, decided to look into it more carefully and found that individuals who were taking Vitamin C, about one gram a day to three grams a day could enhance their natural killer cell activity and the way it was done, was that we took first healthy individuals.

    On Sunday morning, for example, first we took their blood, then Vitamin C was given to them and every two hours we drew their blood up to 24 hours. And then we performed the natural killer cell activity as well as the absorption of Vitamin C into their blood and their blood cells. We found that at 16 hours after taking Vitamin C in 80% of the individuals whose natural killer cell activity was low--and I mean by low,

    for example normal individuals should have between 20 to 50 units or lytic units of natural killer cells, these individuals had 3, 4, 5, 6 such as patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome--we could enhance the low natural killer cell activity by Vitamin C 16 hours from 3 - 5 units to 30, 40 and some of them 80 units. That was significant enhancement of the natural killer cell activity.

    Then we did exactly the same experiment in patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and that was published in the Immunopharmacology and Immunotoxicology 1997 and again we found several similar enhancements of natural killer cell activity in patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

    However, while we did enhance their natural killer cell activity, and T-cell function and B-cell function--these are three of the most important functions in patients with Chronic Fatigue--we could reverse those back to normal but we could not improve the symptomatology of fatigue and so forth, all those criteria based on CDC which make the classification of Chronic Fatigue.

    The argument was, "So what, if you enhance the natural killer cell activity but still they have their symptomatologies?" The answer to that was, "At least we are protecting the patient against future cancer developement."

  12. UsedtobePerkyTina

    UsedtobePerkyTina New Member

    Yes, I went to FFC and they use Quest. The Quest test is LU30

    Range is 8-170. Mine was 6.

    I took a supplement, immune system support. Olive leaf and some mushroom.

    Four months later. It was still 6, same level. I am now on Proboost Protein A, which is produced by thymus gland and helps nonspecific immune system cells turn into the ones you need.

    If you can't afford or can't find Proboost Protein A, you might can get actual thymus from your local herb shop. The Proboost is sublingual.

  13. bigmama2

    bigmama2 New Member

    NK cell (LU30) test from Quest = 12.

    my functionality really varies from day to day. i am split pretty evenly between good, bad, and medium days. good days i am out of bed for 12 hrs and can do normal(but not stressful and not overly physical)things most of the time. bad days I am out of bed only about 6 hours and not able to do much. it is ridiculous how much my energy levels fluctuate from day to day! and there's no predicting it in advance either.

    i am very glad dr klimas said they are doing a "cfs good days / bad days" study. maybe some things will turn up.

  14. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Hi, Katy,

    I had my NK Cell function tested a year ago by Immunosciences Labs. I wish they hadn't stopped offering testing, so I could get another one done to compare.

    Last year, mine was a 6, with normal being above 19.

    I am totally disabled and don't work at all.

    But since that test, I've been steadily taking anti-viral enzymes, methylation supplements, and now a supplement to reduce neurotoxins, so I'd be interested to see if my NK cells are doing better.

  15. tansy

    tansy New Member

    the best tx i've had over the years was a course of iv vit c. the dr who administered them was hoping it would help; my positive response to these ivs surpassed even his expectations.

  16. ladybugmandy

    ladybugmandy Member

    hi all. i was wondering what this means. this is from LabCorp:

    CD19+ lymphs...high (27.1 with normal being 3.3-25.4)
    CD8-CD57+ lymphs....low (42 with normal being 60-360)

    if anyone can help i'd appreciate it.

    thank you!

    ps....i read in articles by demeirleir that RNase L might indicate severity of immune dysfunction/damage, which is bad cuz mine was a whopping 1885 with normal <50!

    with RNase L like that, i would expect my lymphocyte values to be more abnormal!?

  17. Katy47

    Katy47 New Member

    Were you in this Michigan study on NK cell activity below? What was your role? Anyway, it's nice to have a first hand report on the efficacy of vitamin C. I always could tell a difference with it. It kept me going through most of 20+ years, although I should have gone on disability a long time ago. I've always taken 1-6 grams a day. When I was doing massage therapy I would sometimes take 1 gram every few hours.

    In conclusion from the responses on this board, I guess most of us feeling bad do have decreased NK cell function although one person had normal NK cells but high CD57. So, in any case, there is ample evidence for our fatigue but most doctors are clueless.

    Here's the link to the study on NK cells & functionality.
    -I think I read a different study which was similar but more conclusive about NK decrease correlating with severity of dysfunction.

    Results and Discussion

    The reference range of NK cell activity established for the 50 healthy controls was 20-250 LU. For 25 (25%), measurements were 20-50 LU; for 16 (32%), 51-100 LU; for 3 (6%), 101-130 LU; and for 6 (12%), >150 LU (figure 1). In contrast to that in 18% of the controls, in none of the 20 patients with CFIDS was NK cell activity > 100 LU. Those stratified as least severely affected (group C; 10 patients [50%]) had NK cell activity of 61.0 ± 21.7 LU; those with conditions of intermediate severity (group B: 7 patients [35%]) had measures of 18.3 ± 7.3 LU; and the most severely affected (group A: 3 patients [15%]) had measures of 8.0 ± 5.3 LU (figure 1). The NK cell activity of all three groups (A + B + C) was significantly lower than that of the control group (P < .05). Of the three CFIDS groups, only group B (intermediate severity) had NK cell activity that was significantly lower than that of the control group (P <.05). The NK cell activity of group C (least severity) was not significantly different from that of the control group (P = 1.0); this group compromised patients with complaints of the shortest duration and with the least severe affliction according to the global assessment. Although the mean LU of activity in group A (most severity) was lower than that in the control group, the difference between the means was not statistically significant (P = 0.1), a finding that possibly is a reflection of the small sample size of group A.

    [This Message was Edited on 01/12/2008]
    [This Message was Edited on 01/12/2008]
  18. Katy47

    Katy47 New Member

    I'm sorry, I don't know what that means other than a general immune dysfunction marker!

    Post to Munch herself, she'll know.

  19. Katy47

    Katy47 New Member

  20. grace54

    grace54 New Member

    No I was not in the study. The CD-57 is an indicator of possible Lyme disease and one should conside a good Lyme Dr. I just found my original NK cell test from 2006 and it was 11 which on the quest labs is a normal range. Reference range is 8-170. Maybe that is why Dr's never mentioned it. I want to get rechecked to see if it has gone up as all my other numbers have improved to a normal value.

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