Mega Doses Vit C for Pain

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia and ME & Chronic Fatigue Syndrome' started by jaminhealth, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    I was just sent some info relating to reducing back pain, stenosis, spondy and pain in general to taking mega doses of Vit C....10,000mg and up.

    In some cases of severe pain, Vit C IV's are used.

    I'm seeing my integrative MD end of this month and they do IV's in their office and I'm bringing this up to her. I've already upped my Vit C intake to 5-7K per day, but will talk to her as they do IV's in their office.

    Anyone talk on this mega Vit C dosing? jam
  2. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    I have taken vitamin C since I was a 22 year old medical researcher working for the Welcome Research Institute. I started with 1000mg daily, in the 80's I increased this to 2000mg per day. When I was diagnosed with FM I tried an intravenous perfusion of ascorbic acid combined with sodium/calcium ascorbate. I was on this for four weeks. This treatment had no effect on my pain, in fact I think it made it worse but I cannot attest to this. It was for this reason the unit in which I was working decided not to pursue the treatment. However thay did continue to use the treatment for some forms of cancer. Regretably one of our famous scientists recently died of cancer, having not been helped by IV mega-ascorbate treatment.
  3. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    and noted:

    VITAMIN C

    A lack of vitamin C is specifically involved in the cause and progression of chronic back problems such as sciatica and spinal stenosis. The premise is basic: long-term inadequacy of vitamin C causes weak spinal disks.

    Without enough vitamin C, the body is unable to make collagen, the protein glue that holds cells together. When the cells of a cartilaginous intervertebral disk are not holding together, the disk will degenerate, rupture, herniate, or “slip.” There is a lot of body weight on the bones of your lower back. When you flex and move, and the disks are weak or worn down, the bones can compress nerves emerging from the sides. If only one or two disks are involved, it may result in the characteristic back and leg pain called sciatica.

    STENOSIS

    It is worse if multiple vertebrae are involved. Without healthy disks to prevent it, the center spinal channel can gradually stenose, or narrow. This channel is very important: it is the hollow through which your nerve superhighway, the spinal cord, runs. While spinal stenosis is sometimes congenital or caused by a tumor, by far the most common form is acquired stenosis. The usual way one “acquires” it is through injury, or osteoarthritis, or both of these conditions.


    So much info out there and so much doesn't help people!!!!! I think some may have an allergic reaction to Vit C....I've been using Ascorbyl Palmitate in recent years. I probably took 7K yesterday and don't feel any better today...


    Mornings are HORRIBLE anyway, body is highly ACIDIC after sleeping all night and not taking in alkaline foods/water, etc....
    [This Message was Edited on 08/11/2012]
  4. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    I'll have to check that out....anyone know?

    Oranges are 6.5 pH as I recall....
  5. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    board reminded me of this mega Vit C dosing...I haven't been doing it....

    Perhaps it's time to get serious on trying the mega dosing of Vit C in powder form....
  6. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    People with Ostearthritis should not take mega doses of vit C. Particularly if they are smokers.

    The maximum you should take is 500mg, preferably to be with magnesium, zinc and vitamin D. 500mg is actually 7X the RDA. Research has shown that doses above 500mg can induce bone spur growth in Osteo-arthritis.

    The cause appears to be a cytokine called TGFbeta (transforming growth factor) which is activated by high levels of ascorbate. TGFbeta probably mediates this spur growth.

    The very thing which causes pain. This can be mitigated to a small degree by taking Glucosamine and Chondroitin Sulphate. Not that short term pain can't be reduced by high levels of ascorbate but in the long term damage will be being done. Where the spur growth occurs is idiopathic. If you have spinal stenosis be careful with vit C. Better to use anti-inflammatory protocol of vitamin D, curcuminoids and EPA/DHA.

    The opposite is true for Rheumatoid arthritis where people who are deficient/insufficient for Vit C are helped by high doses of vit C to reduce pain. Also that people who are deficient in vit C are more likely to develop RA. So low vit C is a risk factor for RA, as it is for all "auto-immune" diseases.

    The difference is that in RA some of the pain is immunological.

    [This Message was Edited on 11/09/2012]
  7. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    everyone has different information and advice!!!!!!!!!

    Ian, is this from a specific site. thanks...jam
  8. LadyCarol

    LadyCarol Member

    You are literally killing yourself with those mega doses of vit C. Were you to increase your dose of vit C I doubt we'll be seeing you on this forum for much longer.

    Your body is in toxic overload, the pain is telling you so.

    Again and again I am treating people who have overloaded themselves with supplements, and again and again I'm telling them to come of them.
    Once they come off the supplement(s) and their body has had a chance to eliminate the toxic reaction they usually recover, although in some cases they have damaged their body and further medical intervention is required.

    We are seeing people with ME & FM who have been taking supplements for a long time in the belief the supplements are helping them, when we wean them off their addiction to supplements they are recovering and are then able to lead a normal life once again.

    As long as you are getting enough vit C from fruit and veg there is no need for a vit C supplement, unless they are suffering with malabsorption of food nutrients, a blood test will soon confirm if this is the case.
  9. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    and not the mega Vit C, just looking at this info....

    Are you an MD? What about all those overloaded on pharma drugs? They are not doing toxic damage?
  10. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    I have put this information together based on my knowledge and old lecture notes. However there are some online sources you can follow up on:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15188359

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/art.20291/pdf).

    Also I totally disagree with the other poster here who says that people will get well if they stop supplementation. You always get those people who are totally anti food supplementation. They work for pharmaceutical companies or are in their pocket or they just live in the ark.

    The only information to rely on is that from properly conducted scientific studies. There are so many opinions - most, even those from so-called medical or paramedical experts, are just that - OPINIONS.
    [This Message was Edited on 11/10/2012]
  11. LadyCarol

    LadyCarol Member

    IanH, you are totally wrong in your judgements. I am not associated with any pharmaceutical company nor do I live in their pocket nor live in the ark, how stupid a statement to make of someone you don't even know.

    As a professional I come with a lot of experience from treating people who are addicted to supplements and medications. jam admits she takes a lot of supplements. When someone is taking a number of supplements and/or medications there are many many interactions and numerous implications for the human body.

    I am not against anyone taking supplements nor medications as long as they do so for sound medical reasons. Again and again I am dealing with people who abuse supplements and/or medications. I would not be behaving responsibly if I did not speak out when I see or read about someone who is struggling and this is one such case.

    As for the two links IanH references they concern a Guinea Pig Model, they are not a human model. Never should any correlation nor comparisons be made between a non-human model and humans until a human model has been rigorously researched and conclusive evidence examined, concluded and reported, to do otherwise is completely irresponsible and stupid.

    jamin, please seek professional advice for your health issues, tell your doctor exactly what health concerns are facing, which supplements and medications you are taking and together you can both decide your best options. It is not possible to do this on a forum like this, you need a face to face consultation, if necessary seek a second opinion.
  12. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    and no interest in drugs or "another" messy surgery, one was too much....so I'm left with supps to help me along...I don't take many meds believe me...I see an integrative MD and she knows all the supps I take, she recommends some on occasion....

    I like ProHealth's program and believe in all the supps they promote....they've helped many. jam
    [This Message was Edited on 11/11/2012]
  13. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    "I am not associated with any pharmaceutical company nor do I live in their pocket nor live in the ark, how stupid a statement to make of someone you don't even know."

    Fair enough. I apologize. I should not have categorized. I am glad you are not in these categories.

    However I do have some problems with your statements:


    "Your body is in toxic overload, the pain is telling you so".

    What is your evidence that Jam is in toxic overload?
    What is your evidence that Jam's pain is caused by vitamin C?

    "Again and again I am treating people who have overloaded themselves with supplements".

    How do you treat people? What is your occupation? and qualifications? Where do you work?

    "We are seeing people with ME & FM who have been taking supplements for a long time in the belief the supplements are helping them, when we wean them off their addiction to supplements they are recovering and are then able to lead a normal life once again."

    Where is the evidence that you have treated people with ME or FM and that they recovered to lead a normal life?

    Who is "we"?

    "As long as you are getting enough vit C from fruit and veg there is no need for a vit C supplement"

    Vitamin C is the most commonly taken food supplement around the world. If you think this as a problem point me and jam to research that shows the damage done.

    Almost all clinicians who work with people who have ME recommend a daily multivitamin.
    The ICC on ME/CFS also recommend such supplementation and additional supplementation as appropriate.

    How much do you know about mitochondrial dysfunction? or mitochondrial myopathy? And the treatments used for such conditions. It is fairly well accepted that ME involves mitochondrial dysfunction as well as glutathione depletion, at least partly and safely treated using vitamin B12, folate and NAC. (All supplements)

    "Never should any correlation nor comparisons be made between a non-human model and humans until a human model has been rigorously researched and conclusive evidence examined, concluded and reported, to do otherwise is completely irresponsible and stupid."

    Never? Stupid?

    If people with ME or FM applied this they would be totally in the hands of their doctor. Now if you read the literature on ME you will see that this in itself is a problem - because so many of them are treated with disdain, ridiculed and told they have a psychological problem or referred to a psychiatrist. All of the people I know professionally, personally and on forums such as this try to help themselves intelligently and with discourse between themselves, many have given up on the medical profession - sadly.

    While studies on animals are not the same as on humans they do mostly reliably point to what will happen in humans. One would be foolish to ignore such results in research and clinically. While they should not necessarily be acted on they can be a very important check. In the study the authors state:

    "This worsening of OA with ascorbic acid supplementation suggests that ascorbic acid intake should not be supplemented above the currently recommended dietary allowance (90 mg/day for men and 75 mg/day for women)."

    Surely this is supporting your position so how can you have a problem with it?
    Secondly show me some studies of high dose ascorbate which cause damage in humans. There are some in vitro studies of course and lots of opinions but I am interested in the data from reliable studies.

    I would appreciate your answers and I am sure many on this forum will be interested too.

    [This Message was Edited on 11/11/2012]
  14. kjfms

    kjfms Member

    Sounds interesting, I'll speak to my physician. I am so tired of taking narcotic pain reliever.

    Thanks,

    Karen
  15. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    considered higher dosing of MSM powder, for me it helps "calms" pain. MSM is a sulphur and it's written some are deficient in sulphur.....just a thought.

    To live on narcotics is a hard way to go, I do take hydrocodone but take 1/2 tabs maybe 2-3 times per day in between iburprofen and the Pain Rx herbal I've been taking recently.
  16. victoria

    victoria New Member

    long time, not on here... but I just wanted to say, my DH has taken high doses of C off and on, maintains on about 4-6G/day normally for other reasons (takes care of high eye pressure so no rx'd eye drops are needed, plus helps his gums).

    But, he had severe stenosis in his neck on MRIs in 1994 plus other problems including RSD.... over the next 10 years approximately, he had 2 more MRIs taken at about 5 year intervals, and his stenosis improved to the amazement of his doctors, they were not expecting that, stated that hadn't seen anybody's stenosis actually improve.

    I can't verify it was just the C of course because he takes about 30 different supplements/day, and it's very likely he has Lyme (facial palsy etc + our son has it and so do I), but he has gotten better whereas originally they were predicting surgery within a few years would be absolutely necessary (ie, he'd probably be falling down).

    If anybody's interested in MSM, the late James Coburn the actor was the posterboy for its use... he had crippling arthritis which is why he didn't act for so long. He saw Dr. Stanley Jacobs finally (who wrote THE book on MSM, I highly recommend it), ended up taking 40 G (yes, 40 grams) per day; he said the pain went away at that point and he was able to go back to work and make a couple of movies. The only problem is it causes GI upset for many.

    all the best,
    Victoria
  17. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    long time, no see you here..

    I've been taking probably 25 grams daily of MSM powder in 3 divided doses daily and it does definitely "calm" pain...can't wait to take my first dose in the AM after sleeping all night and waking up with stiffness and pain...I can kinda feel the pain lifting.....it does NOT upset my stomach.....Probiotics, digestive enzymes and DGL could be saving me in that area.

    I have not jumped on the mega doses of C, but probably take 1000mg per day.
    [This Message was Edited on 11/28/2012]
  18. victoria

    victoria New Member

    I'm glad the MSM helps so much. I never could take more than 2 grams, and that was in divided doses; but that was a long time ago. I still have my headaches, have had them come back and need to redo the MP which is what cut the frequency by 1/2 and gave me back a lot of energy/less brain fog. I am going to try again the MSM made into a nasal spray, it has helped in the past, until I do start again and get through at least 2nd phase.

    It's amazing how just taking the 5-6 G of C/day helps lower eye pressure; sadly, the eye doctors that our friends have seen while doing this, after being told their pressure was too high/ instead of using the rx'd eye drops/ have not told other patients about it. You'd think they'd want to help save pts the cost? but maybe they're really afraid to step out of the box an get into trouble. I think it takes a special kind of person/MD to stand up to the boards.

    I think also of course divided doses are best with the C since it's absorbed so fast. I've always found with sore throat/colds the chewable C work best for me in particular, tho I only use the chewables for that.

    V
  19. jaminhealth

    jaminhealth Well-Known Member

    a lot of info on eye problems and using canola oils and veggie oils....I'm going to make a separate post on the dangers of canola oil.
  20. victoria

    victoria New Member

    That's interesting, but one friend that was helped with eye pressure via C is Sicilian and only uses the best olive oils/eats a Mediterranean diet since that's what he grew up on... we don't use canola either...

    some of this is just genetics, I think. We may all need different things. And some do fine regardless- a friend's aunt was diabetic, close to morbid obesity, etc, yet lived to almost 101 and still thought clearly, could still walk, etc. & I think Abram Hoffer's work using certain B vitamin(s) with schizophrenia was a great example that showed how needs differ... but I digress... lol

    V