Methylation Block treatment from basic to advanced

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia and ME & Chronic Fatigue Syndrome' started by richvank, May 22, 2007.

  1. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Lisa.

    Good point about the charcoal adsorbing drugs. Sorry I didn't mention that. If someone is taking drugs, they should space taking the activated charcoal in time away from when they take the drugs.

    Activated charcoal is the main substance used at poison control centers for people who overdose on drugs.

    Rich
  2. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

  3. australiacelsiana

    australiacelsiana New Member

    dear mr. Van Konynenburg,
    I have been reading an article in LiveScience about "Understanding of Human Body Clock Reworked" by Ker Than - Live Science staff writer - July 06. Would you say that cfs,fms(?) is a disorder that involves a malfunctioning of our internal body clock? the author claims that PER speeds up our internal body clock causing mammals to have shorter days..and if you think we are affected..

    Interested to know your idea on this.
    A question from melbourne
  4. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, a.c.

    Published research suggests that the biological clock in the suprachiasmic nucleus of the brain is operating normally in CFS. However, quite a few PWCs have the experience of having lost synchronization with their body clock, so that their sleep-wake cycle keeps drifting forward with respect to the day-night cycle based on the earth's rotation and the sun. I don't think this phenomenon is understood at this point.

    Normally, there are certain photoreceptors in the retinas that sense external light and send a synch signal to the suprachiasmic nucleus that locks in its oscillation with the day-night cycle of the earth-sun system. This will even work with the eyes shut, because the eyelids are thin and allow enough light to pass through to send the signal. So that's what normally keeps us in synch.

    There have been experiments in which people have stayed in total darkness, such as in a deep cave, so that there is no triggering signal from external light. In this situation, there is no synch signal, so that the biological clock becomes a free-running oscillator at its natural frequency, which is slightly longer than 24 hours. So these people experience a forward drift of their sleep-wake cycle, too. But my understanding at present is that this is not the same as what's happening in CFS, because measurements of temperature cycling have shown that the biological clock itself is not drifting relative to the day-night cycle in CFS, but that the response to it is unsynched. This response involves cortisol and the serotonin-melatonin system.

    I think we have more to learn about this, but I expect that fixing the methylation cycle block will fix this problem along with all the others in CFS, because the methylation block and the resulting glutathione depleiton are what causes the problems with both the HPA axis (cortisol) and the production and metabolism of serotonin and melatonin.

    Rich
  5. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

  6. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

  7. australiacelsiana

    australiacelsiana New Member

    thank you for your well thought out message. sleep-wake = pain for many people with cfs i know. they seem to be close neighbors. Many with cfs also show great signs of co-existing psychiatric conditions. Sad for many. Difficult to help when people exhibit aggression. Take care, cheers.
  8. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

  9. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

  10. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

  11. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

  12. Jerryinelpaso

    Jerryinelpaso New Member

    Rich,

    I have some observations on CoA and I would appreciate it if you could tell me if I have the facts straight...with CFS muddle brain I am not sure of much anymore, although I am doing better since starting the Methylation protocol.

    You have said that 'secretory proteins' that requires cysteine in its formation is liable to be reduced as a downstream effect of reduced cellular glutathione:

    ..."my more fundamental suggestion that secretory proteins that contain cysteine double bonds are not being made well in CFS because of glutathione depletion in the cells in which they are made."
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    I looked up 'Cysteine metabolism' on wikipedia, and found:

    "...L-cysteine is also consumed in methionine and glutathione metabolism as well as pantothenate/CoA biosynthesis." I then found that CoA is synthesized in a five-step process from pantothenate...and that step 2 involves the addition of 'a cysteine'.

    I also learned that CoA is involved with fatty acid 'synthesis and oxidization'. I have also noticed that in reviewing some folks organic acid test results you see problems in burning fatty acid:


    "Often I see that neither the fatty acids nor the carbohydrates are being burned properly, and that suggests more strongly that there is a partial blockade in the citric acid cycle."

    "I am not surprised that autistic children are not able to burn fatty
    acids well. I think this results from a partial blockade in the
    Krebs cycle, which results from glutathione depletion... I think this is also true in many cases of CFS."

    ..."fatty acids are not going into the Krebs cycle as readily as they should...are a result of the partial blockade that still exists at
    aconitase, because of the glutathione depletion."
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Because of the above, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to include the Coenzyme A supplement into our methylation treatment.

    It seems that this is a substance that is directly related to well documented problem of CFS, and one that fits into your depleted glut scenario. I realize that if the meth cycle is restored and glut is raised then CoA will be restored also, but I was wondering if supplementation of this may help during the detox process.

    There is only one brand a supplementation out there, and I don't know of any independent studies on either its efficacy or side effects. I was thinking of trying it using the good ole method of 'start low and go slow' dosing.

    So, do I have any of the above right?? Don't be gentle...this is only the mid term, I'll do better on the final...

    Jerry

  13. Diva55

    Diva55 New Member

  14. SUE001

    SUE001 New Member

    Hi Rich,

    I'm pretty new to this site and have been reading with interest your work on the GD-MCB Hypothesis along with the simplified treatment approach. I would be most grateful if you could answer my following questions:

    1.I am currently taking antibiotics for Borreliosis (had ME/CFS for >15 yrs, CFS/ME doctor diagnosed Borreliosis 4 years ago)and wondered if your protocol could be run along side abx? My thinking is to use the abx for the actual infection and to use the methylation protocol aswell to get at the underlying problem so that the immune system starts to work properly again.

    2.I also take supplements for Mitrochondrial dysfunction(d-ribose, co-enzyme Q10, vit B3, magnesium malate, N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine). Would I need to continue with these whilst on the methylation protocol and if I were to continue with them would they interfere with the actions of any of the supplements from the protocol?

    3.I am also taking NAC to deal with the elementary forms of Chlamydia Pneumoniae infection. Again, continue or discontinue? I'm presuming the NAC will also help in raising my glutathione levels so maybe worthwhile continuing with it?

    4. I am also taking VegEPA. Do you know if there are any interactions between this and any of the 5 supplements on the Methylation protocol?

    Many thanks in advance
    Sue
  15. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Sue.

    I'm pretty new to this site and have been reading with interest your work on the GD-MCB Hypothesis along with the simplified treatment approach. I would be most grateful if you could answer my following questions:

    ***O.K. My responses are at the asterisks.

    1.I am currently taking antibiotics for Borreliosis (had ME/CFS for >15 yrs, CFS/ME doctor diagnosed Borreliosis 4 years ago)and wondered if your protocol could be run along side abx? My thinking is to use the abx for the actual infection and to use the methylation protocol aswell to get at the underlying problem so that the immune system starts to work properly again.

    ***I think this is a good plan, so long as the die-off and detox you are experiencing from the abx are not too severe, because this treatment will add more of same, and it's important that it not be so intense in terms of detox symptoms that you will not want to tolerate it. If you are already experiencing considerable die-off and detox, I would suggest waiting until the abx treatment is completed before starting the GD-MCB treatment. If not, then I think you could do them concurrently.

    2.I also take supplements for Mitrochondrial dysfunction(d-ribose, co-enzyme Q10, vit B3, magnesium malate, N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine). Would I need to continue with these whilst on the methylation protocol and if I were to continue with them would they interfere with the actions of any of the supplements from the protocol?

    ***I would suggest continuing them at first, but as time goes by on the GD-MCB treatment, your methylation cycle should start functioning better. I believe that the reason why Co Q-10 and carnitine are low in CFS is that methylation is required to synthesize them, so that when the methylation block is lifted, you will be able to make your own. I believe that intracellular magnesium is low because glutathione is depleted, so that when glutathione comes up, your cells will retain magnesium better. Once the blocks in your mitochondria have been removed by raising glutathione, you probably won't need supplemental D-ribose. There are small amounts of magnesium, niacin, and L-carnitine in the multi that is part of the treatment, at the dosage suggested. Here is its overall composition:

    Serving Size: 6 Tablets (I'm actually suggesting going up to 2 tablets per day, starting lower, in order to start the methylation cycle slowly, so divide the numbers below by three).

    Amount per serving

    Vitamin A (as palmitate)
    5000 IU

    Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)
    500 mg

    Vitamin D (as cholecaliciferol)
    400 IU

    Vitamin E (as d-alpha tocopheryl succinate)
    400 IU

    Vitamin K (as phytonadione)
    40 mcg

    Vitamin B-1 (as benfotiamine)
    25 mg

    Vitamin B-2 (as riboflavin)
    12.5 mg

    Niacin (as niacinamide)
    37.5 mg

    Vitamin B-6 (as pyridoxal-5-phosphate)
    12.5 mg

    Folic Acid
    100 mcg

    Vitamin B-12 (cyanocobalamin)
    250 mcg

    Biotin
    150 mcg

    Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium pantothenate)
    50 mg

    Calcium (as calcium d-glucarate)
    25 mg

    Magnesium (as citrate, oxide)
    100 mg

    Zinc (as monomethionine)
    5 mg

    Selenium (as L-selenomethionine)
    100 mcg

    Manganese (as arginate)
    1 mg

    Chromium (as polynicotinate)
    100 mcg

    Molybdenum (as amino acid chelate)
    75 mcg

    Potassium (as citrate)
    5 mg

    Broccoli florets powder
    160 mg

    Citrus bioflavonoids
    50 mg

    Choline (as bitartrate)
    25 mg

    Inositol
    25 mg

    PABA (para-amino benzoic acid)
    5 mg

    Garlic (Allium sativum) bulb powder
    200 mg

    L-methionine
    150 mg

    Milk thistle (Silybum marianum) seed extract
    100 mg

    N-acetyl-cysteine
    75 mg

    Pine (Pinus maritimus) bark extract
    25 mg

    Taurine
    250 mg

    Turmeric (Curcuma longa) root extract
    50 mg

    Intrinsic Factor
    5 mg

    Trimethylglycine (TMG)
    50 mg

    5 Free Form Nucleotide Complex
    100 mg

    Boron
    1 mg

    L-Carnitine (Tartrate)
    100 mg


    3.I am also taking NAC to deal with the elementary forms of Chlamydia Pneumoniae infection. Again, continue or discontinue? I'm presuming the NAC will also help in raising my glutathione levels so maybe worthwhile continuing with it?

    ***If you are tolerating NAC well, I would suggest continuing it. I don't know what dosage you are using, and I don't know what your body burden of mercury is like. There is evidence from animal experiments that NAC can move mercury into the brain, and Dr. David Quig of Doctor's Data Lab has recommended keeping the dosage at 300 mg per day or less, together with high quality dietary protein, if there are large body burdens of heavy metals, including mercury.

    4. I am also taking VegEPA. Do you know if there are any interactions between this and any of the 5 supplements on the Methylation protocol?

    ***That should be fine.


    ***Rich
  16. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Jerry.

    In my experience, most PWCs don't have a problem making coenzyme A, so long as they are supplementing pantothenic acid (vitamin B5), which is in the complete vitamin supplement that is part of this treatment. To be sure about this in a given case, one can run a Metabolic Analysis Profile (or another urine organic acids test) to see where the blocks in the metabolism are. Usually I haven't seen a problem with Co A in the test results I've seen.

    However, at least one person on the board has reported that they benefit from taking supplemental Co A. I certainly don't think it would interfere with the treatment, and it may help in some cases, so if you want to take it, I think it would be fine. I don't think I'll include it as one of the basic supplements in the simplified treatment, though, based on the test results I've seen so far.

    Rich
  17. SUE001

    SUE001 New Member

    Hi Rich,

    Many thanks for your reply.
    On the point of NAC, I am taking 1200mg. As I understand it, this dose and higher is necessary for the treatment of Cpn. I recently increased this to 1800mg but my symptoms worsened. Not sure if this was a coincidence or possible Cpn die-off or something else.
    I do seem to be tolerating 1200mg NAC, so I am not sure what to do in terms of dosage. Would being on the GD-MCB treatment exacerbate the possible movement of mercury into the brain whilst taking 1200mg NAC or would the risk be the same?
    I have never had my mercury levels tested so this is something I will look into.
    Sue
  18. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

  19. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Sue101.

    I think that 1200 mg per day is about the highest one should go with NAC, even if they don't have much mercury or other heavy metals on board. There is one study in the literature in which it was found that NAC causes pro-oxidant effects rather than antioxidant effects at doses higher than this. Perhaps that's what happened to you when you went to 1800 mg.

    Have you had amalgam fillings in your teeth during the time you've had CFS? If so, I am surprised that you could tolerate 1200 mg of NAC per day without having some neurological symptoms. If not, I can understand it.

    As far as I know, if you are tolerating 1200 mg of NAC alright, it should be O.K. to continue it while doing the MCB simplified treatment.

    Rich
  20. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator