Methylation MultiVitamins: why are they so special?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by cct, Jul 3, 2007.

  1. cct

    cct Member

    Does anyone know exactly what the special components are in the HolisticHeal General Mult-Vitamin that specifically help the methylation process?

    RichVanK has refered to the methylation block assistance offered by the HH General Multi-Vit as something that no other multi-vitamin can offer.

    I have reviewed the ingedients in the HH General Multi, and the only thing that I see that might make a difference in the methylation cycle are "nucleotides". When I researched "nucleotides", I came to the conclusion that d-ribose is one of the most basic nucleotides.

    I am already taking d-ribose (per Dr. Myhill's theory).

    Does anyone have any information on RichVanK's preference for the HH General Multi in relation to the Methylation Cycle?

  2. Diva55

    Diva55 New Member

    Rich describes the components of each supp in his Basic to Advanced thread.

    This is what he's written about the multi vit:

    Complete vitamin and ultra-antioxidant (now called the General Vitamin Neurological Health Formula)--This is Amy Yasko's basic high-potency general nutritional supplement. This is kind of a foundation for the biochemistry in general. However, I think it's better for PWCs than other general supplements, because it has particular things needed for dealing with a methylation cycle block, including some TMG and sulfur metabolism supplements as well as nucleotides. It is also high on magnesium and low on calcium, and has no iron or copper. So I don't think other general supplements do everything this one does, and I think it's important in the treatment.
    The TMG helps to get the shortcut pathway in the methylation cycle going, and that helps to build SAMe, which is needed to get the methionine synthase reaction going. The nucleotides will help to supply RNA and DNA for new cells until the folate cycle is working right again.
    Hope that helps

    Best wishes
  3. SnooZQ

    SnooZQ New Member

    rather than a nucleotide, which is a protein. Ribose is the "backbone " of RNA, to which nucleotides attach. Supposedly the nucleotides in the Gen Vit are ones to help the methylation cycle, rather than the sort of general assortment of nucleotides you get from eating sardines or lettuce.

    But I believe that in her RNA DVD, Yasko mentions ribose as a helpful supplement, esp. for CFS. However, it is not exactly the same as her proprietary nucleotides/RNA.

    Many vitamins contain amounts of certain nutrients that Amy Yasko feels are counterproductive for some people. Examples of this would be a lot of calcium, or mineral aspartates. Apparently for predisposed individuals, some nutrients can contribute to glutamate toxicity, or imbalance of glutamate & GABA in the brain.

    The above is my own understanding of why the General Multi is recommended. I'm sure others will weigh in.

    A researcher named Jill James has had pretty good success facilitating the methylation cycle in autistics, without using the HHGV, RNA, or even necessarily the specifically named brands of supplements. Both the James & Yasko protocols have had the autistic population as their primary proving ground. In the study cited below, autistic kids supplemented with some basic nutrients to promote the methylation cycle, did make improvements.

    Metabolic biomarkers of increased oxidative stress and impaired methylation capacity in children with autism

    James SJ, Cutler P, Melnyk S, et al. Am J Clin Nutr 2004;80:1611-1617.
  4. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi All,

    Since no one has answered this question on the board yet, I tried to figure out the answer from Yasko's "Puzzle" book. I will put a very simplified summary of my understanding here. Those who know more about the topic should correct me insofar as I am wrong (or add other info), of course.

    It seems there are two totally separate ways that we can get methylation going in people who have problems with it.

    1) "Long Way"

    This requires only the folates (e.g. FolaPro and Intrisi B12) and the B12. It's like the patient's "gears" are stuck, and we're pouring on just a little bit of motor oil. It may take a while before it seeps in and starts moving at an appropriate speed.

    2) "Short Way"

    This seems to require only TMG, phosphatidyl serine, and phosphatidyl choline. The TMG is in the multivitamin, and the phos serine and choline are in the phos serine complex. Using this method is like taking a Q-tip and carefully swabbing the insides of the gears with oil rather than just dripping some on, so they can start moving around immediately.

    In theory, you could get at least some methylation just through the "short way." However, this is not a good strategy for the long term. This is because the "long way" helps to make RNA (needed for tissue repair and immune system functioning) while the "short way" does not. Although Yasko's RNA Methylation Support (an optional item on Rich's protocol) supposedly supplies some RNA, and while the nucleotides in the multivitamin might help the body to make some RNA without the "long way" working, the RNA will be much more plentiful if the body's making it.

    I'm not absolutely sure that the "short way" would produce an optimal amount of methylation for the body to function either, though the "Puzzle" book does not state this one way or the other.

    (Insofar as I have noted, almost everyone here seems to be using the folates and B12 for methylation, meaning that they are for sure using the "long way." Since there are some important benefits that can never be obtained the "short way," this seems to be a good thing. Note that everybody who's not methylating correctly must have a problem either with folate conversion or B12 availability, since it seems that once the "long way" gets going, the "short way" is no longer absolutely needed in order for plentiful methylation to occur.)

    An obvious advantage of using the "short way" in addition to the "long way" is that the process seems likely to get started a lot faster and to continue speeding along. In some people whose gears are really frozen stuck, it seems conceivable that it will be a very long time (maybe never) before methylation starts working just with the "long way" supplements.

    One question that seems relevant to whether we absolutely need the "short way" supplements (included in the multivitamin and the phos serine complex) is whether the methylation process seems to get off to a good start with just the folates and B12. If so, adding more methylation through the "short way" seems like it might not be necessary (or even desirable).

    Those people who do not start to make good progress (e.g. experience what is clearly detox and/or start to feel better) after a short time on the folates/B12 certainly would seem to be well off considering the short-cut supplements before abandoning the program.

    An obvious question is why people might not want to use the "short-cut" supplements. Here are some potential reasons:

    * The multi contains substances to which the person knows s/he is allergic (or has not yet tested for sensitivity)

    * The person knows s/he responds badly to the substances in the phos serine complex (or find it out upon taking the supplement)

    * The person is sensitive to SAMe and/or TMG, and is afraid of a negative reaction

    * The person cannot afford the supplements

    If one or more of these things is the case, it could be reasonable to skip the multi and/or the phos serine complex at the beginning. If progress is not made in reasonable time on just the folates/B12, the strategy could be re-evaluated.


    Now, I'm a bit fuzzier on this part below, but think I will throw it in just as food for thought.

    First, there is no particular reason to think that all people with CFS have deficiencies in TMG, phosphatidyl serine or phosphatidyl choline. It seems that some people do have genetic mutations that keep them from producing enough of these. However, some people (such as those who respond badly to SAMe) might even have too much of the first item on the list already.

    It does seem to me that CFS patients might be short on the RNA, since it is produced especially efficiently through the "long way." (Note that nucleotides help make RNA. If indeed the Yasko RNA Methylation Support supplement works, using it would seem to make getting the nucleotide in the multivitamin less important or unnecessary.)

    I looked up "nucleotide" on Wikipedia, and here it gets a bit interesting. This is what it says:

    "Nucleotides are the structural units of RNA, DNA, and several cofactors - CoA, flavin adenine dinucleotide (FAD), flavin mononucleotide (FMN), adenosine triphosphate and nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate. In the cell they have important roles in metabolism, and signaling."

    Then I looked up all those mysterious "cofactors." This is what I found:

    CoA=coenzyme made from pantethine (a nutritional supplement), which is itself a metabolite of B5 (another nutritional supplement). Note that Co A is itself now available as a nutritional supplement.

    FAD=coenzyme made from B2 (a nutritional supplement)

    FMN=coenzyme made from B2; also involved in usage of NADH and CoQ10

    ATP=this is synthesized from ribose and other things. Note that ATP is also available as a nutritional supplement. (Google "Peak ATP" to find this. Peak is the brand name.)

    NADP=unfortunately I don't quite understand this one. Maybe someone else can figure it out.

    What strikes me about all these cofactors is that the components (when available and taken as nutritional supplements) all are said to help CFS.

    In the past, I always have wondered why CFS patients benefit from these supplements. It now seems to me that at least part of the reason that they help may be because excessive amounts of them are needed to produce RNA to replace that which is not produced as a result of the "long way" methylation not working properly. If so, adding them might either help the body to produce more RNA and/or supply some for other purposes (such as, I think, direct production of Krebs cycle energy).


    If indeed all this information is correct, it seems to me fairly simple to go about determining which of the supplements in the protocol might be appropriate. All things being equal it probably is safer to take them all "just in case," but for some of us, all things are not equal.

    I personally have (based on this analysis) decided to do the following.

    1) Continue with the folates and hydroxycobalmin. These seem to be working well for me, at a speed at which I feel comfortable. Adding on the "short way" does not seem absolutely necessary at this point, therefore.

    2) Not take the multivitamin, for several reasons. a. I am allergic to the milk thistle that it contains. b. I am uncertain that I want to expose myself to a bunch of untested items (which the supplement contains) at this point in my treatment, since I often have random sensitivities to things. c. I'm not at all convinced I need any more TMG anyway. (I have had very bad reactions to supplementing individually with TMG and with its metabolite SAMe in the past, and this suggests I may have more than enough of this stuff already.)

    3) Continue with a multivitamin that does not contain much if any iron, copper or calcium. (Plenty of these are available.) Also make sure I have enough magnesium and zinc. Even though I don't believe I have a CBS upregulation, I'm going to continue with molybdenum "just in case."

    4) Consider seriously buying Yasko's RNA Methylation Support product. The reason for this is that even though I'm not convinced I want to methylate faster (since I'm currently detoxing at a comfortable pace), more RNA seems like it could be valuable to me. Tissue repair is important if my organs are to function well, and my immune system needs all the help it can get. Moreover, I believe that the nutritional supplements listed above (Co A etc.) are helping me significantly. Perhaps the RNA support would do the same thing that they do (but perhaps even more effectively!). This could allow me to get additional benefits or to drop the supplements. (Since those supplements aren't cheap, replacing them with the RNA product could be cost-effective even if it doesn't work better. If indeed it works at all, of course.) The fact that I won't be getting the nucleotides since I'm not planning to buy the multivitamin makes this seem like a particularly good idea to consider.

    5) By all means, make sure I'm getting enough plain vitamin B complex, since that is not expensive and necessary to make all those cofactors. (It really should be included in the methylation protocol anyway, since B12 is generally thought to be better when used in conjunction with at least some of all the other B vitamins.)

    6) Consider supplementing with all the other nutritional supplements in high doses to see what happens. (In the past, I've done this only sporadically since I was under the impression that they just made short-term energy. Now that I think that they also might help with the tissue repair and immune system functioning needed to help me get "truly well", I'm much more interested.....especially since I'm not yet convinced for sure that the RNA formula that Amy Yasko cooked up actually works. It will be interesting to see how it feels to me intuitively if I get it.)

    7) Try the phos serine complex (I already have some on hand) carefully to see how it feels. If it doesn't have an effect or feels good, I will continue on it. If it feels bad (in a "bad way" rather than a CFS detox/die-off "good way"!), I will have no hesitations in dropping it.

    Incidentally, I'm not totally convinced at this point that I was having problems with the "short way" to begin with. If indeed the short way never can methylate enough no matter how hard it works and no matter how many raw ingredients it has, then it is conceivable that it's not a problem for me. That would explain why starting the "long way" would be yielding such fast results for me, since with the analogy above the gears actually _weren't_ stuck. (Again, this is conjecture since I'm not sure whether the "short way" can indeed not do all the methylating I might ever need even when my body is under stress.) I don't doubt that some people do have a genetic defect that keeps them from making enough TMG, but I don't think I'm one of them based on the info I have thus far.

    I feel like this has been a productive exercise for me, and I now have a strategy that makes me feel comfortable. While one general protocol may be good for the average CFS patient, I feel much better about any treatment if I can tailor it to my specific problems and issues.

    Again, it's quite possible that either my facts or my conclusions about some (or all!) of this are wrong. If so, please correct me!!!

    Best, Lisa

    [This Message was Edited on 07/03/2007]
  5. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Lisa.

    That was a real tour de force!

    I think most of what you said is correct.

    I think that the reason why starting the "shortcut" BHMT pathway first is helpful is that this will produce SAMe, and SAMe is needed to produce methylcobalamin, which is needed to drive methionine synthase, in the "long" way.

    It really is important to get the "long" way going, because it is linked to the folate metabolism, and converts 5-methyl THF to THF. THF is needed for other reactions, including making components of DNA and RNA.

    This is a fabulously integrated system. I'm amazed that the methylation cycle and the associated transsulfuration pathway and folate cycle can simultaneously do all the things they do, keeping the rates of each where it needs to be for health.

    Concerning the phosphatidylserine complex, I think that one of the roles it plays is to help repair membranes, including the cell's plasma membrane and mitochondrial membranes. I think the mito membranes have been damaged a lot by oxidative stress in CFS. Repairing membranes in the brain seems to be an important role for this, too, since it seems to have an effect on how cells respond to cortisol.

    I'm glad that you are getting some benefit from the parts of the treatment you are doing. It's sort of a common denominator combination of stuff, in order to mass produce cures of CFS without doing genetic and other testing to see which things each person needs and which they don't. If people do the kind of extensive testing done in the full Yasko treatment program, they can find out their own genetic makeup and tailor what they do to it. But I was trying to use a different philosophy with this treatment, because I found that so many PWCs did not have the money and/or the cognitive function to do all of that. There's a whole other group of people in the Yahoo cfs_yasko group who are doing the more complicated treatment, which I encouraged them to do starting about a year ago. I have nothing against that approach, but it isn't the right path for everybody, I think.


    [This Message was Edited on 07/03/2007]
  6. cct

    cct Member


    Everyone, thanks for addressing my question!

    I am going to have to print out your replies and study them more carefully.

  7. cct

    cct Member

    Rich do you agree with what SnooZQ and LisaPetrison have to say on this subject?
  8. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    This is interesting.

    I've been noticing myself that all the supplements which help the "short way" around the methylation cycle disagree with me, while the "long way" supplements have a big effect on me and seem to be doing a lot.

    I seem to need help with the long way around the methylation cycle.

    I've ordered the methylation RNA stuff.

  9. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi all.

    First, what Lisa was referring to by "short" and "long" are the two biochemical pathways that lead from homocysteine to methionine. This is Amy Yasko's terminology. This is not related to the distinction between the simplified treatment approach and the full Yasko treatment approach.

    By the "short" pathway, Dr. Amy means the BHMT (betaine homocysteine methytransferase) pathway. This one requires TMG (betaine) or choline, which can be converted to TMG in the body. Getting this pathway going is easier than getting the "long" pathway going.

    The "short" pathway is not connected to the folate metabolism. By getting it going, you can start producing more SAMe, and that will help to make methylcobalamin from other forms of B12.

    You need methylcobalamin as well as an active form of folate (5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, same as FolaPro) to get the "long" pathway going. Once the "short" pathway is going well, and you have built up the folates and the B12, then the "long" pathway will be easier to start.

    In some people, because of their genetics, it starts easily. In others, it is necessary to force the "short" pathway to slow down in order to divert flow to the "long" pathway. This can be done by cutting back on TMG and forms of choline, and/or adding DMG, which exerts back-pressure on this reaction, according to the Law of Mass Action in chemistry. DMG is a product of the "short" pathway, so adding it exerts what is called "product inhibition" on this reaction.

    In some cases, perhaps as in Lisa's case and in Forebearance's case, because of genetic makeup and past diet, the "short" pathway may already be doing fine and not need any help. TMG (betaine) is found in foods. For example, the reason its called betaine is that it is abundant in beets.

    As I've mentioned before, the simplified treatment is meant to be a lowest common denominator, mass production treatment for CFS that will help a large fraction of PWCs without having to do testing. For those who are interested in tailoring it to their cases, and who can afford the testing and have the cognitive ability to understand the issues, this is certainly an option. There is a whole other group of people on the Yahoo cfs-yasko group who are doing this sort of thing.

    I would also like to comment on what I think are some of the differences between treating autism in a young boy (typically) and CFS in a mature woman (typically). I realize that not everyone fits into these categories, but I want to make a general point.

    Women who are menstruating need to replace the iron they are losing, while little boys don't have this issue.

    Women, especially those who are approaching or who are in menopause, need to pay attention to their calcium intake to avoid osteopenia or osteoporosis.

    PWCs in general are operating to a large degree on protein as an energy (calorie) source, because they are not able to burn carbohydrates or fats well. I suspect that the autistic kids may not be as limited in this, but I'm not sure. At any rate, cutting down the protein intake as is recommended in the full Yasko treatment for people who have certain SNPs in their CBS (cystathionine beta synthase) enzyme is not a good idea for PWCs, in my opinion. I have seen a few PWCs go very low in amino acids and Krebs metabolites from doing this, and that is not a good thing to do.

    Finally, I think that there is a difference in the dominant sources of mercury between the autistic kids and the adults with CFS. The kids got most of their mercury from the vaccinations, as the organic form ethylmercury in thimerosol. Many of the adults with CFS got theirs from amalgam fillings in their teeth, which the little kids generally do not have. This makes a difference.

    The ethylmercury has already been able to enter the brain, so that giving the kids methylcobalamin does not move much more mercury into the brain.

    However, in the adults, a lot of the body burden is in the form of mercuric ions, I think, because it started as metallic mercury vapor inhaled from the amalgams, and was oxidized by catalase in the blood, eventually producing mercuric ions bound to sulfur in enzymes and other proteins. This form of mercury is vulnerable to methylation by methlcobalamin, and can then be moved into the brain.

    So I think it's best not to take a lot of methylcobalamin if you have had amalgams. So far, these are the major differences of which I am aware between treating autism and CFS.

  10. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Rich,

    Thanks for your last post. That was very useful.

    For a couple of years before I got sick, my husband and I went on a semi-vegetarian diet. We ate some fish, eggs and dairy, but no other meat.

    He did great on this diet (which is to be expected since he has liver problems).

    On the other hand, I think it weakened my system a lot. I have found since I've been sick that I'm allergic to both milk and eggs, and so relying on them for protein wasn't a very good idea (even though my food allergies likely weren't as bad before I got active CFS).

    I've always thought the problem went way beyond that though. I thus tend to agree with your comment that protein serves as a disproportionate energy source, at least for me.

    Best, Lisa
  11. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Yes, thanks for that post, Rich.

    I'm an example of your point about calcium. Osteoporosis runs in my family and there's no way I would give up the calcium I take. I seriously need it. I can't sleep without it.

  12. cct

    cct Member

    for the additional explanation.

  13. Daisys

    Daisys Member

    bump and save
  14. monalisa3

    monalisa3 New Member

  15. marti_zavala

    marti_zavala Member

    Thank you for your research. I will have to read it a couple of times.

    "NADP=unfortunately I don't quite understand this one. Maybe someone else can figure it out. "

    Could you have meant NADPH?

    "B3, which gets converted to NADH, then to NADPH, which with GSH-PX restores oxidised GSH to reduced GSH. so NADH is part of the b3 metabolism."

    GSH is glutathione.

  16. marti_zavala

    marti_zavala Member

    "5) By all means, make sure I'm getting enough plain vitamin B complex, since that is not expensive and necessary to make all those cofactors. (It really should be included in the methylation protocol anyway, since B12 is generally thought to be better when used in conjunction with at least some of all the other B vitamins.)"

    I am not sure this is the way to go. Typical B complexes have inactive B12 and B6. You are not sure yet how your body will respond to "active" B vitamins. The extra, inactive, versions may increase your detox.

    I am aware of the need for people to pick and choose but it makes me uncomfortable because then you really can't say that you "attempted" Yasko. The dietary restrictions are difficult for our population to adhere to so that is a factor as well, on whether it "worked" or not. But no one ever talks about that part.

    There are specific reasons for all including or excluding parts of the B complex. Unfortunately, I am not familiar enough to be able to tell you why very concisely.

    Congratulations on getting through the book. It is a difficult protocol to learn as the biochemistry is involved.

  17. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Thanks for your note. Forebearance was saying something like this the other day---that she stopped taking B complex because she didn't want the folic acid and (I think) forms of B12 other than hydroxy to interfere with the Perque and activated folates she's taking.

    That made it sound to me like she was afraid that she wouldn't get enough detox if she made those changes. She's taking such tiny doses of all of these that I kind of wondered why that was a concern, but perhaps it's the ratios rather than the total amounts.

    Anyway, I got a huge amount of detox (I mean HUGE!) when I first started on the methylation. It's since dwindled down to not being real noticeable. I added some things (increased the folates and B12, added some glycine and ALA, both per the MetaMetrix ION test recommendations.....yes, I know that's not Yasko-approved), but it still isn't overwhelming. If I take ProHealth's 50 mg B12 (several forms), I can push up detox a little bit, but otherwise it's pretty moderate no matter what I do.

    However, I am getting more detox than a person ever could want by addressing mycotoxins with cholestyramine and essential fatty acids (with a ton of Vitamin C thrown in), and I'm currently of the belief that my main remaining detox problems came from that. I've been doing the methylation for nine months now, and so maybe most of what can be methylated has been methylated. The biotoxins seem to take a different channel of elimination than the other stuff, according to Rich van K.

    Probably this makes no sense (I've been taking a lot of cholestyramine recently and am feeling the effects). I do get your point about why maybe infinite amounts of B complex might not be right though.

    Thanks much for posting on this board!
  18. marti_zavala

    marti_zavala Member

    Hi Slaydragon,
    I did not see your post and I am glad you bumped this because I was looking for a particular quote from Rich and it was on this thread.

    Can you tell me where Rich mentioned that biotoxins may come out through a different method.

    I believe that biotoxins is my biggest problem.

    I am glad that you are able to control detox. That is an important issue.

  19. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I can't remember if Rich wrote that biotoxins may come out through a different method than methylation. It may have been in a private e-mail to me.

    Thus far I have found that the combination of fish oil and cholestyramine gives me a big release of what seems to be mold poison. (I am pretty sure this is biotoxin rather than other toxins, since my mold sensitivity goes up, my visual contrast sensitivity goes down, and the symptoms are slightly different than when I push the methylation.)

    Udo's Oil (a combination of flax oil and some GLA's) gives me an even bigger detox when combined with the csm.

    I would not recommend taking those two things together if you're planning to get anything done for the next week or two! It does seem to work though.

    Fish oil by itself seems to have some detox ability if taken by people with acute mold toxicity. Starting with a capsule or two (rather than using the liquid in teaspoons) may be a conservative approach.

    Erik said that Dr. Shoemaker told him that fish oil indeed should have some detoxifying effects for biotoxins, but that you'd have to take enough of it to spawn. I don't know how much that is. The dosage likely would vary from person to person.

    CSM alone gives me somewhat of a detox, though not nearly as much as when I combine it with essential fatty acids.

    My totally unproven theory is that the fish oil makes the fat cell membranes (especially those in the brain) more permeable. Then when the csm exerts a "sucking" action, it all rushes out.

    (Shoemaker explains the intensification reaction that can occur with csm in "Desperation Medicine." He seems to think that it's more with lyme than mold. I'm not sure which it is, since I seem to have a moderate lyme problem as well as mold. I suspect most CFS sufferers with mold also have lyme yeast or certain viruses or certain bacteria, it's hard to avoid.)

    Noni juice is said by some to encourage detox. I used some and thought that it made my muscles more stiff. I'm not sure if it helped.

    By far the hands-down winner for me in terms of detox is IV's of Vitamin C, 25 cc. This makes me feel basically like a normal person for about three days. I don't know that it digs the biotoxins out of the fat cells, but it does a bang-up job of getting the "loose stuff" off the top.

    My doctor basically insisted that I try these IV's, and he sure was right. He said that after about a dozen, I should start to feel a more long-lasting improvement. So far I've had 6. So far, so good.

    Note that I had a bad experience with a higher dosage of Vitamin C. (This was through a slow push IV rather than drip, but the dosage was more like 50+ cc of the drip.) This actually gave me a herx, similar to the ones I got with antibiotics (though not as bad).

    Apparently at very high doses Vitamin C exercises a pro-oxidant effect, killing off bugs. I think this could be useful for me later on when I have less mold toxicity and my system is stronger. For now, I'm working on detox and leaving the bugs alone.

    I take about 30 mg of oral Vitamin C per day as well. I'm not sure how effective that is with the biotoxins, but my body seems to use it all up since my urine has not had any color for years.

    Other than that, the only thing I've been doing for the biotoxins is drinking large amounts of fresh vegetable juice mixed with (per my doctor's instructions) some greens powder. I don't know how well that works, but it seems worth a try.

    More biotoxin detoxifying ideas would be great!
  20. acer2000

    acer2000 New Member


    It could be that fish oil capsules stimulate the production of bile, which increases the amount of biotoxins dumped by the liver into the intestines. Thus, you need CSM to bind them or else it might make you feel worse...