Methylation Protocol, Rich

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Sceptical, Jul 21, 2011.

  1. Sceptical

    Sceptical New Member

    Hi Rich,

    We have talked about the issue of overstimulation as something that may prevent patients from using the simple m. protocol. I made a discovery. I take a quoter of humapronol (10 mg propranolol) and so I can take the supplemets. As a result, I take now Actifolate, Folapro, b12 hydroxo 10mg IM (2xweek) and methylcobalamine 1 mg every day. 2 weeks have elapsed, no problem. However, I have trouble to fit in phosphatidylserine. It causes strong anxiety and diarrhea. I am still experimenting with the suggested vitamin supplement.

    Question 1: May I benefit from my own protocol without PS, and possibly neurological health formula? Am I able to restart methylation by this way as well? I drink organic milk (2 glasses per day, I cannot tolerate whey protein).

    Question 2: What do you think about a small quantity of creatinine (5mg per day, caps, Twinlab)? I took it when I was healthy (sport). Due to the fact that I took it over an extended period of time (5g but for 6 months) my blood tests were frightening (high creatinine, highly elevated liver enzymes, haemogolobin, haematocrit). During this disease I have lost muscle mass. What if I include creatine just for a month (one month on one month off). Does this disturb detox due to the concomittant dehydration? My doc in Sport Hospital told me that my blood was very thick but probaby I screwed it up by having taken it for 6 months. It also has a role in methylation (I saw it on a chart).

    Thanks in advance,
    Adam
  2. richvank

    richvank New Member


    Hi Rich,

    ***Hi, Adam.

    We have talked about the issue of overstimulation as something that may prevent patients from using the simple m. protocol.

    ***Yes, excitotoxicity has been a problem for quite a few people who have tried this protocol.

    I made a discovery. I take a quoter of humapronol (10 mg propranolol) and so I can take the supplemets.

    ***As a non-physician, I don't get directly involved with recommending drugs, but I can understand that propranolol could help with excitotoxicity. It is primarily considered a beta adrenergic receptor blocker, but it does have some activity against calcium channels. I hope you are being careful with it, since as you probably know, it can have some adverse effects.
    It sounds as though you are taking a relatively small dosage, though.

    As a result, I take now Actifolate, Folapro, b12 hydroxo 10mg IM (2xweek) and methylcobalamine 1 mg every day. 2 weeks have elapsed, no problem. However, I have trouble to fit in phosphatidylserine. It causes strong anxiety and diarrhea. I am still experimenting with the suggested vitamin supplement.

    Question 1: May I benefit from my own protocol without PS, and possibly neurological health formula? Am I able to restart methylation by this way as well? I drink organic milk (2 glasses per day, I cannot tolerate whey protein).

    ***Quite a few people have chosen not to take the phosphatidyl serine complex, especially those whose cortisol is very low. In the most recent revision of the protocol (see below), I have put in the choice of taking lecithin instead of phos. serine complex. It will supply phospholipids to support the repair of cell membranes, without the high phosphatidyl serine. A good quality lecithin should be used. For those allergic to soy, there are other lecithins now available.

    ***The revised protocol is essentially the same as the version you have been using. One difference is that I have decreased the total amount of folic acid in favor of more of the active forms of folate. Some people are not able to use folic acid very well, and it also competes for absorption with the active forms. I've also converted some of the supplements from tablets to liquid forms to make them more convenient. And I have put in the lecithin option for people who don't tolerate the PS complex well.

    ***Some people have also had problems with the neurological health supplement because of sensitivity to one or more of its ingredients. Some have substituted another multivitamin-multimineral. While this will not replace all the active ingredients in the neuro. health formula, it will provide the cofactor vitamins and minerals that are needed. I think this is likely to be adequate.

    Question 2: What do you think about a small quantity of creatinine (5mg per day, caps, Twinlab)? I took it when I was healthy (sport). Due to the fact that I took it over an extended period of time (5g but for 6 months) my blood tests were frightening (high creatinine, highly elevated liver enzymes, haemogolobin, haematocrit). During this disease I have lost muscle mass. What if I include creatine just for a month (one month on one month off). Does this disturb detox due to the concomittant dehydration? My doc in Sport Hospital told me that my blood was very thick but probaby I screwed it up by having taken it for 6 months. It also has a role in methylation (I saw it on a chart).

    ***A small dosage of creatine would probably be fine. The synthesis of creatine is normally the biggest user of methylation in the body, so taking some creatine as a supplement will likely take some of the demand off of SAMe, so that it can be used more for other methylation reactions. There are more than 50 enzymes in the body that carry out a variety of methylation reactions, and they all require SAMe, which is produced by the methylation cycle. As you may know, the role of creatine is to act as a buffer (primarily in the muscles and the brain) to transfer and temporarily store energetic phosphate groups from ATP. It has a good safety record, with studies showing only minor adverse effects for dosages and durations higher than you reported, but every person is unique. It seems to me that it would be a good idea to maintain a proper balance between creatine and ATP in order for the cells to be able to have a healthy energy metabolism.

    Thanks in advance,
    Adam

    ***You're welcome, Adam, and I hope this treatment helps you.

    ***Best regards,

    ***Rich
  3. Sceptical

    Sceptical New Member

    Hello,

    thanks for your quick answer.

    Please let me raise a specific qiestion again.

    Starting point: I cannot tolerate PS. I develope diarrhea and foggy brain (increasingly worse). I suppose that the result would be the same with lecitin. I might avoid diarrhea but for some reason I develop foggy brain from PS (and from Omega 3 and 6 like cod liver oil)

    Question: With a very low (modest) dosage of propranolol I tolerate well Folapro, Actifolate, IM b12 shots (hydroxo) twice a week, methylcobalamine every day, an half of the vitamin pill.
    Consequently, I am able to stimulate methionin synthetase. What about BHMT? Will methionine synthetase pathway stimulate BHMT as well with time? Do I need to stimulate BHMT? I do not tolerate PS (PC). Why is TMG necessary if I take so many methyl donors?

    The upshot is that does it make any sense to follow the simplified protocol w/t PS? Many docs (e.g. Neil Natham) allege that PS and the vitamine supplement are helpful but not indispensably necessary. Should I try to raise the dosage of Folapro, Actifolate, B12 to offset the lack of PS? I fear it would lead to a crash. I cannot measure H2S and Ammonia, thus the safest way is to follow the minimum guidelines. Am I right?

    I'll try to include creatine as well. However, I fear it interferes with detox bc it dehydrates and creatinine is an additional burden to the liver. My sport doc said it raises all the test values by definition (creatinine, haemoglobin, haematocrit, Gamma GT) but he said I should keep in mind that I am no more healthy and my tolerance threshold is much lower. In turn, it might be beneficial for oxygen deprived brain cells although they will receive less blood (dehydration)

    Thanks for your nswer again,

    Adam
  4. richvank

    richvank New Member


    Hello,

    ***Hi, Adam.

    thanks for your quick answer.

    ***You're welcome.

    Please let me raise a specific qiestion again.

    ***O.K.

    Starting point: I cannot tolerate PS. I develope diarrhea and foggy brain (increasingly worse). I suppose that the result would be the same with lecitin. I might avoid diarrhea but for some reason I develop foggy brain from PS (and from Omega 3 and 6 like cod liver oil)

    Question: With a very low (modest) dosage of propranolol I tolerate well Folapro, Actifolate, IM b12 shots (hydroxo) twice a week, methylcobalamine every day, an half of the vitamin pill.
    Consequently, I am able to stimulate methionin synthetase. What about BHMT? Will methionine synthetase pathway stimulate BHMT as well with time? Do I need to stimulate BHMT? I do not tolerate PS (PC). Why is TMG necessary if I take so many methyl donors?

    ***No, methionine synthase will not stimulate BHMT. The benefit of stimulating it is that it will produce SAMe, which can be used to regenerate methylcobalamin for methionine synthase. I don't know if you will need to do this or not. If you need to stimulate BHMT to produce enough SAMe to support methionine synthase, then TMG will do that. It is the reactant for the BHMT reaction, together with homocysteine. If you cannot tolerate PS or lecithin, then I think you should avoid it.

    The upshot is that does it make any sense to follow the simplified protocol w/t PS? Many docs (e.g. Neil Natham) allege that PS and the vitamine supplement are helpful but not indispensably necessary. Should I try to raise the dosage of Folapro, Actifolate, B12 to offset the lack of PS? I fear it would lead to a crash. I cannot measure H2S and Ammonia, thus the safest way is to follow the minimum guidelines. Am I right?

    ***I suggest taking the other supplements in the protocol, starting with dosages you can tolerate, and working up to the suggested dosages, or more if you seem to need more eventually. Avoid taking PS or lecithin. Eventually maybe you will be able to tolerate some support for your lipid membranes. These are damaged by oxidative stress in ME/CFS, and they need to be repaired. But I would suggest just taking the other supplements to see how it goes.

    I'll try to include creatine as well. However, I fear it interferes with detox bc it dehydrates and creatinine is an additional burden to the liver. My sport doc said it raises all the test values by definition (creatinine, haemoglobin, haematocrit, Gamma GT) but he said I should keep in mind that I am no more healthy and my tolerance threshold is much lower. In turn, it might be beneficial for oxygen deprived brain cells although they will receive less blood (dehydration)

    ***I don't have a strong position on creatine. It is not part of the basic protocol, but taking some as a supplement may relieve some of the demand on SAMe.

    Thanks for your answer again,

    ***You're welcome.

    Adam

    ***Rich
  5. Sceptical

    Sceptical New Member

    Hello Rich,

    Thanks for your quick answer again.

    Really final question:

    If I do not tolerate PS in either form BUT my SAMe value is low (it is safe to say in CFS) then I needed to support somehow BHMT. What about taking TMG? There is some TMG in the proposed vitamin supplement and I seem to tolerate that to some degree. I assume more would be necessary (cca. 8mg). Do you suggest taking TMG? What is the recommended dosage? You also mentioned lecithin but failed to mention any dosage (spoon?)?

    Many thanks. I hope I will see some results. If so, I am gonna share the news.

    Best,
    Adam

  6. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Adam.

    I would like to be able to answer your questions, but I don't have experience with these substitutions. You may have to experiment with TMG and lecithin. I would suggest trying both, following the dosage directions on the bottles. Try to get a good quality lecithin, such as the one suggested in the protocol. Some lecithins don't have much phos. choline in them. I will be interested to hear how it goes for you.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  7. Sceptical

    Sceptical New Member

    Thanks for your reply. I will fill you in as soon as I have some experience.

    Have a good summer !

    Adam
  8. richvank

    richvank New Member

    O.K. you, too!

    Rich