Mitochondria's role in PEM (crash) and how you can reduce it

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Catseye, Jan 26, 2008.

  1. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    Recently I've been studying everything I can about the mitochondria and how they work. I was convinced that was my ongoing problem and that PEM (post exertional malaise - when you get tired too fast and then pay for it for days or weeks afterwards, usually called "crashing") is somehow tied in with mitochondrial function. The mito fuels that we all know is just the tip of the iceberg. The antioxidants we have been taking to combat free radicals like GSE are also effective, but the body has its own antioxidants that are depleted in CFSers.

    We're all familiar with glutathione and hgh being low, but there are a few other body-made antioxidants that hardly ever get mentioned. I have narrowed down my own PEM to the mitochondria, specifically the buildup of lactic acid and harmful free radicals such as peroynitrite.

    I got the hint from a warning in one of Cheney's articles where he said:

    "Note: Increasing the energy of a CFS patient is extremely dangerous unless you first restore the enzymes in the mitochondria and the supporting co-factors they need to work well. If superoxide cannot be safely broken down into water and/or peroxynitrite neutralized, inducing energy in a CFS patient will likely result in a major relapse, perhaps worse than any state previously experienced. Be very cautious with any product on the market designed to increase cellular energy in CFS if you haven't first restored the function of the enzymes needed to handle the by-products of such energy production. Of course Dr. Cheney's current study protocols are intended to address this very problem."

    As soon as anybody mentions relapse, they mean Post Exertional Malaise, it's our main problem. Obviously, something is bad wrong, but we don't know what. Well, maybe we didn't before, but now we do:

    I went to work looking for the enzymes and cofactors he was talking about and I found them. The cofactors are things like the mito fuels and coenzyme A, I've already listed all of them in my recent threads about mitochondria. You are going to have to read them and understand them to get everything out of this post. The mitochondria have to be treated from all angles, just as Cheney indicated in his warning, or you can do a small part, get a bad result, and then blame me or assume that mitochondria malfunction is not your problem. If you have PEM, then your mitochondria are not functioning normally. But that's okay, because they can be fixed.

    Besides the cofactors, there are the enzymes that break down the dangerous byproducts of energy production. For a quick review, the mitochondria are the sites of energy production in the body. The use the mito fuels and oxygen to produce ATP. ATP's bonds are broken and the breaking of the bonds releases energy which we use.

    Production of ATP results in superoxide and when it builds up because of lack of enzymes to break it down, it can leak outside the cell and mix with nitric oxide where it forms peroxynitrite, the deadly free radical that can cause tissue damage. Under normal circumstances, superoxide is safely reduced to water by enzymes embedded inside and outside the mitochondria. It's these internal enzymes we are deficient in, allowing buildup of very harmful byproducts of energy production like peroxynitrite. This, in turn, causes the body to halt energy production because it can't break down superoxide and peroxynitrite fast enough.

    The outside antioxidants like GSE, green tea, ALA and pine bark extract are good to use for free radicals, but they can't break down the superoxide - we have to have our own internal enzymes in adequate amounts to do this. If the enzymes aren't there, the body won't let you be active and thereby allow these harmful byproducts to accumulate and do damage in the body. So PEM is really a safety mechanism so you won't do free radical damage!

    There are also other things like low cortisol and other hormones which will affect PEM to a certain extent, but you can feel your PEM building up as you are active. And then once you stop being active, you can feel it still building up. This is lactic acid, superoxide and peroxynitrite building up from the ATP you are using and making. ATP can be recycled, and this adds to the buildup.

    So I started trying to figure out what we can do to lessen the free radicals by increasing the enzymes that break them down. And I've found out a couple of tricks that have lessened my own PEM to almost nothing, within reason. I haven't exactly jogged around the block to test it, just overdid it a little bit. I'm seriously deconditioned, so it doesn't take much for me to overdo it. I couldn't jog around the block, anyway, I'd probably work myself up into a heart attack. A seriously deconditioned body is nothing to fool with. You have to take it slow while building yourself back up or you can literally drop dead. And I haven't come this far to just drop dead one afternoon while riding my bike or something.

    A couple of these enzymes are superoxide dismutase and catalase. So I looked for these enzymes in supplement form. They aren't sold in pure form, but their PRECURSORS are! I found a pill by Biotec Foods called Extra Energy Enzymes that contains concentrated plant enzymes and isoflavanoids which have been "shown to remarkably enhance the body's production of superoxide dismutase and catalase, and other critical enzymes including glutathione peroxidase and methionine reductase." And they are working beautifully.

    These things are made from plant sprouts, specifically wheat, corn and soy, which I have been avoiding but since they're sprouts, they're okay - they don't even contain any gluten. So I ordered them and waited. I also ordered some liposomal glutathione. I got the pills 10 days ago and as soon as I picked them up, I took the recommended 6 pills on an empty stomach. Within an hour, my brain cleared up considerably and went into overdrive and it hasn't backslid a bit since. I also got more energy immediately, more than I could use. But I gave it a couple of days of taking it easy before I did anything stupid.

    I got my liposomal glutathione and started taking that, too. I'm sure everybody already knows the importantce of glutathione, the body's main detoxifier and antioxidant. I have been taking the precursors to glutathione for a long time, but I was tired of wondering if I still had enough in my body so I decided to supplement with it. (and alpha lipoic acid is talked about in the other mito thread, but it also works with glutathione and is very important) Then I set out to purposely do too much to see what would happen. There I go, being my own guinea pig again. You know how many times I've done that and it turned out bad? Alot! Nevermind.

    So I did too much running around that day (but you have to understand, I had been studying this inside and out and was very confident in my new theory) but I could tell the PEM was much less than it should be, plus my head stayed clear. And then I had a brainstorm about the remaining PEM I was still feeling. I knew I just took care of many of the free radicals with the enzyme sprout pills and the liposomal glutathione. But there was still lactic acid buildup! And it's always going to be worse in a deconditioned body.

    I knew that lactic acid meant the body was going to be more acidic. And I also knew that malic acid can cut down on lactic acid production by helping the mitos use more oxygen. So what did I have that raises ph and has malic acid? Apple cider vinegar! Before you laugh, I took about 1-2 tsp on a glass of water and it cut down the rest of my PEM so it wasn't troublesome any longer. I felt much better.

    If I had to guess, and I don't have a meter stamped in the middle of my forehead so it is, in fact, a guess, I'd have to say the sprout pills cut down my PEM at least 50% and the ACV took away another 30% of it. The end result? I've been able to start exercising after that without feeling bad or like I have to "recuperate" afterwards. It's more like I'm finally "building up" rather than "tearing down". There is no way to predict what this will do in anybody, like how much their own PEM will be reduced, but getting these antioxidant enzymes working again is going to be crucial for anyone to overcome PEM. All I know is my body has been operating much better since I started these pills.

    Here's a little bit about the science of the sprout pills:

    "Supplementing with IsoSproutPlex(R) promotes intercellular SOD1 (CU/ZN SOD) and mitochondrial SOD or SOD2 (MnSOD) by up-regulating antioxidant enzyme gene expression. The mechanism includes metabolizing flavones and isoflavones resulting in a phytoestrogen with a well documented high affinity for a specific estrogen receptor site known as beta. The biological result is a signaling cascade that dramatically increases endogenous SOD (superoxide dismutase) and CAT (catalase) production.

    Internally generated antioxidants provide far greater protection against the effects of oxidative stress than antioxidant nutrients. One of the most important antioxidant enzymes in humans is superoxide dismutase (SOD). Numerous studies correlate diminished SOD levels with health problems, suggesting that abundant SOD promotes longer life. IsoSproutPlex(R) has been shown to boost levels of SOD and other antioxidant enzymes. IsoSproutPlex(R) supports healthy cell function and reduces inflammation.

    IsoSproutPlex(R) strengthens a person's defenses against oxidative stress by increasing the body's natural antioxidant enzymes."

    The mitochondria can be repaired and you can also create new mitochondria in the body. The only way to create more is to exercise. But if you can lessen PEM, then you can exercise. And if you can exercise, you can build new mitochondria and that will automatically lower your production of lactic acid because it can be recycled for more energy.

    In summary, I suggest the following to help repair the mitos and cut down PEM:
    (obviously, these are in addition to the mito fuels and cofactors that were discussed in my other threads)

    -liposomal glutathione (really expensive though, you may be able to get away with just taking the precursors: NAC, glutamine and glycine)

    -Biotec Extra Energy Enzymes - not expensive

    -apple cider vinegar - dirt cheap (get organic, NOT Heinz)

    -NT Factor - repairs mitochondrial membrane, sold in PH store

    I have to thank Rich Van K and Drs Cheney and Pall for pointing me in this direction. They have never mentioned the sprout pills, but I wouldn't have found them if I hadn't read their articles and thought to go after the enzymes. And Rich did suggest NT Factor and liposomal glutathione in a couple of his articles. I'm really glad I finally made this connection. These pills have made the biggest impact in the shortest time of any other supplement I've tried. I should have been studying the mitochondria in depth from the very beginning, but oh well. I thought the mito fuels were about all I could do. I've already sent a message to tech support and suggested that PH sell these biotec sprout pills. I've never suggested to them before that they sell any product.

    I think, also, that mitochondria malfunction needs to be a focus of CFS along with the glands, digestion and other organ dysfunction. The mitochondria have been largely ignored. Although, I did find Cheney's current protocol and he does talk a lot about the antioxidants and trying to reduce superoxide, nitric oxide and peroxynitrite.

    Yesterday, also, I went to town and did too much. I spent much longer in town than I thought I would and left all my magic pills at home. In sudden invention, I remembered that apple juice also has malic acid in it and so I bought some and it really helped me to feel better. I think the ACV is better, but apple juice will help in a pinch.

    Another thing that scavenges peroxynitrite is CO2, so if you breath into a bag for a few seconds, that could theoretically help PEM, too. I haven't tried this alone yet. I forgot about it in town yesterday or I would have done this with my apple juice. Sure sounds too weird to work, doesn't it? Can you just see your doctor telling you to get some ACV and a bag for your PEM?

    Another warning: don't just work on mitochondria and expect great results overnight if you haven't already addressed the digestive system, liver, adrenals, thyroid, immune system and diet. All of these need to be worked on together if you want to get over CFS. It's not impossible.

    best wishes,


    [This Message was Edited on 01/26/2008]
    [This Message was Edited on 01/26/2008]
    [This Message was Edited on 01/26/2008]
    [This Message was Edited on 03/24/2008]
  2. Dlebbole

    Dlebbole New Member

    what is PEM? Thanks
  3. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    Sorry, should have made that clear! I went back and added it.

    It's what happens to you after you've been active. You get super exhausted from just a little bit of activity. Or even much later, long after you were active. You just feel worse and worse, like you can't recover from whatever it was you did.

    For some people, that can be as little as standing up sometimes. Some people can work an 8 hour job, but then they collapse afterwards. It's mostly a buildup of the "bad" chemicals and lack of certain key hormones, I believe.

    [This Message was Edited on 01/26/2008]
  4. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    These are just some relevant assorted facts from my notes. This is an unorganized mess, but with some interesting facts. I have pretty much summarized the important stuff in my mito posts, but I thought some people who like details might find them as interesting as I did:

    Vit C - ascorbate and glutathione can "spare" one another and ascorbate slows down glutathione loss and vice versa (glutathione suggested to be important for motor neurone function). The reason for the relationship is unclear. While cellular concentrations of ascorbate react poorly with peroxynitrite molecules, this anti oxidant might slow down loss of glutathione, which can effectively neutralise some destructive cell free radicals

    Most E supplements contain only the alpha tocopherol form because it is believed to have the greatest biological activity. Gamma-tocopherol is able to quench certain free radicals that alpha-tocopherol does not. Of the E vitamins it has been stated that only gamma-tocopherol gets rid of peroxynitrite, a highly destructive nitric oxide radical. It has been suggested that high levels of alpha-tocopherol in the blood can reduce the level of the gamma form. Different tocopherol forms appear to have complementary but not identical functions.

    It appears that the nervous system has a marked preference for natural-source Vitamin E, which may be significant in treatment of neurological disorders. Studies have demonstrated a preference for natural-source Vitamin E by various body tissues, including the brain and spinal cord, compared to synthetic Vitamin E" the survey said. "There was preferential uptake of natural-source Vitamin E by the lung, red blood cells, blood plasma and brain. The brain showed the highest discrimination for natural-source Vitamin E. The concentration of natural source Vitamin E in the brain increased gradually to a five-fold higher concentration than the synthetic isomer after five months, suggesting that natural-source Vitamin E will be significantly more available to the brain than the equivalent intake of synthetic Vitamin E."

    TOCOTRIENOL is a much neglected component of vitamin E. In addition to the four tocopherols, another related series of compounds, tocotrienols, have been discovered which are less widely distributed in nature. While tocopherols are predominantly found in corn, soybean and olive oils, tocotrienols are particularly rich in palm, rice bran and barley oils. Therefore, vitamin E is the term used for eight naturally occurring essential fat-soluble nutrients: alpha,beta, delta & gamma tocopherols plus a class of compounds related to vitamin E called alpha, beta, delta and gamma tocotrienols. Comparatively, the tocotrienol structure differs by possessing three double bonds in their side chain rather than being saturated.

    Tocotrienols have been shown to elicit powerful antioxidant, anti-cancer and cholesterol lowering properties. Some studies have confirmed that tocotrienol activity as an antioxidant, anti-cancer and cholesterol reducing substance to be much stronger than tocopherols. Tocotrienols were once thought to be of lesser nutritional value than the tocopherols, it is apparent that their activity and importance rank them as one of the most important class of nutritional compounds for the prevention and treatment of disease.

    Please note: Extract from the book written by Lavon J Dunne, "Nutritional Almanac":
    "Vitamin E has a tendancy to raise blood pressure when it is given in high doses to someone who is not accustomed to it. Therefore initial intake should be small, and as tolerance rises, the dosage should be gradually increased".

    About CO2 scavenging peroxynitrite:

    "How do you increase CO2? Well, first let me ask how you decrease CO2, which we definitely don't want! Hyperventilation. If you hyperventilate, you dramatically decrease CO2, which would be highly damaging. It can produce carpal-pedal spasms in some patients (carpal: wrist; pedal: foot). Its most damaging effect is to your brain, however.

    Rebreathing: You can increase CO2—and stop hyperventilation—by rebreathing. By inhaling your expired CO2, you actually scavenge peroxynitrite. [Rebreathing involves cupping your hands over your nose and mouth so that when you exhale, your CO2 is trapped there and then you inhale it. Do this for a minute at a time, about once every four or five minutes during a thirty-minute period once or twice a day. You can also do this while breathing oxygen through a nasal cannula. Rebreathing can also help address respiratory alkalosis, extremely common in CFIDS, thereby improving microcirculation by shifting blood pH—thus allowing more oxygen to be transported off the hemoglobin.] "

    Malic Acid - 500mg - Malic Acid is found in a variety of foods. It is a vital nutrient needed for the production of cellular energy (Krebs cycle). Malic acid helps boost cellular energy and reduce achy muscles. It removes unwanted waste material from muscle cells including lactic acid, a byproduct of oxygen deficiency. Lactic acid has been implicated as one reason for achy muscles. Lactic acid may accumulate in muscles after periods of anaerobic and aerobic exercise. It may also be involved in the trigger point pains associated with fibromyalgia (9). "Malic acid gave subjective improvement within 48 hours in one studyä" Sherry Rodgers M.D. ,Pain Free in Six Weeks.

    Overall, anaerobic exercise burns fewer calories than does aerobic exercise and may be somewhat less beneficial for cardiovascular fitness. However, it is better at building strength and muscle mass and still benefits the heart and lungs.

    As you begin to work out vigorously, there is a temporary shortage of oxygen being delivered to the working muscles. A popular term related to anaerobic energy production is lactic acid. Lactic acid is a by-product of producing energy anaerobically. When lactic acid accumulates at high levels in the blood, it causes muscular fatigue. This is why anaerobic exercises cannot last long. With training, the body becomes better equipped to handle lactic acid. Several efficient changes occur in the body during training that result in decreased production of lactic acid and increased removal of it from the bloodstream.

    The body produces “buffers” that delay the onset of fatigue during anaerobic exercise. Studies have shown that with anaerobic training, the muscle’s buffering capacity is increased by 12% to 50%. With this increased buffering capacity, more lactic acid can accumulate during high intensity exercise without causing fatigue.

    Anaerobic Threshold

    Lactic acid starts to accumulate in the muscles once you start operating above your anaerobic threshold. This is normally somewhere between 80% and 90% of your maximum heart rate (MHR) in trained athletes.
    What a low Lactate Threshold means

    If your lactate threshold (LT) is reached at low exercise intensity, it often means that the "oxidative energy systems" in your muscles are not working very well. If they were performing at a high level, they would use oxygen to break lactate down to carbon dioxide and water, preventing lactate from pouring into the blood. If your LT is low, it may mean that:

    * you are not getting enough oxygen inside your muscle cells
    * you do not have adequate concentrations of the enzymes necessary to oxidize pyruvate at high rates
    * you do not have enough mitochondria in your muscle cells
    * your muscles, heart, and other tissues are not very good at extracting lactate from the blood

    Improving your Lactate Threshold

    The aim is to saturate the muscles in lactic acid in order to educate the body's buffering mechanism (alkaline) to deal with it more effectively. The accumulation of lactate in working skeletal muscles is associated with fatigue of this system after 50 to 60 seconds of maximal effort. Sessions should comprise of one to five repetitions (depends on the athlete's ability) with near to full recovery.

    Training continuously at about 85 to 90% of your maximum heart rate for 20 to 25 minutes will improve your Lactate Threshold (LT).

    Since lactic acid is burned for energy in the mitochondria, anything that enlarges the mitochondria builds a bigger furnace and helps to increase endurance. Lactic acid is carried from the cells into the mitochondria by special proteins called lactate transporter molecules, so anything that increases these molecules will build endurance. An enzyme called lactic acid dehydrogenase is needed to start the reaction, so anything that increases this enzyme will also help. Interval training does all three: it enlarges the furnace (mitochondria), increases lactic acid transporter molecules, and increases the amount of lactic acid dehydrogenase.

    Peroxynitrite production plays a significant role in the progression of one of the great killers of our time, atherosclerosis. It also appears to depress heart contractility, impair endothelial functioning and vasodilation, deplete antioxidant levels and contribute to the damage caused by the ischemia/reperfusion process. In non-pathological situations, however, peroxynitrite interacts with glutathione and other thiols to produce substances (nitrosothiols) that appear to have decidedly positive effects on the heart. Whether peroxynitrite has negative or positive effects is at least in part, therefore, dependent upon the whether sufficient thiol agents, in particular glutathione, are present to transform it into not just a benign but a helpful agent.

    In vitro tests of peroxynitrite’s effect on the animal hearts indicate it increases lipid peroxidation (cell membrane damage), depletes antioxidant levels (leaving cells vulnerable to free radicals), disrupts intracellular signaling (throws a monkey wrench into the machinery), dysregulates intracellular calcium levels (causing cell suicide among other things), inhibits contractile protein activity (reduces heart pumping), injures DNA and increases cell adhesion to the vascular wall (increasing inflammation, atherosclerosis) (Pacher et al. 2005, Hare and Stamler 2005) (!!!!). By oxidizing BH4 peroxynitrite may also play a role in both reduced NO production and increased superoxide production.

    Both nitric oxide and peroxynitrite can inhibit mitochondrial electron transport (ATP production) through inactivation of complexes I, II, III in the electron transport chain. Protein nitration (nitrotyrosine formation) also knocks out or alters the activity of the main superoxide scavenger in the mitochondria MnSOD. The position of the tyrosine residues near cytochrome C’s catalytic region renders it particularly susceptible to peroxynitrite damage (Cassina et. al. 2000, Reiter et. al. 2000). Peroxynitrite does its damage by oxidizing the lipids (fats) in cell membranes (they are very fatty), by fragmenting DNA and by damaging (nitrating) proteins.

    glutathione - better absorbed if taken with bilberry and elderberry

  5. Catseye

    Catseye Member

  6. cct

    cct Member


    I am printing-out all of your great information on this thread so that I can study it in more detail!

  7. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    i just checked and my NSI brand Vit E is all tocopherols, but the one Yasko recommends is a mix of tocopherols &tocotrienols.

    I think it's Allergy Research.. but i'll check.

    any recommendations for the best source of Vit E?

  8. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    For natural sources, I like nuts, sunflower seeds, leafy veggies, olive oil and avocados. I guess there are others but those are my favorites. I know some other vegetable oils and oils like safflower, corn, soy and canola have it, but I avoid those.

  9. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    No, I'm just searching for ways to fix myself and when something helps, I post about it. I've tried lots of things I don't post about. I'm too busy researching to try to get involved with any business or ways to make money right now. When I get myself "fixed", then maybe I'll do something with products that do what they say they do, but for right now, I'm still studying.

    Constant studying and paying close attention to your body will help you narrow down what's wrong. It just came to my attention a couple of things about leaky gut syndrome that I had forgotten about so I'm revisiting that problem. I'm just passing on what I'm figuring out about myself because for sure some people here have the same things going on in their bodies. And I know how hard it is to study when your brain isn't working.

    I can't work and so I have plenty of time to study. Just think if I had applied myself like this in college! But this is more like "driven studying". I'm addicted and can't stop. And I won't stop until I'm fixed. The knowledge of how to fix us is all out there. It's just in all different places and much of it is difficult and expensive. And if you can't find a test to tell you what you need to know, then there's a lot of guesswork.

    Right now I'm trying to get testing done on my liver to find out about Phase I and Phase II pathways. I suspect my gut is still "leaky" and letting in too many toxins that are overwhelming my liver. Leaky gut is a royal pain to fix.

    I have extensive notes on everything and I'll eventually put them together in a book. It really helps to know exactly what's happening and what substances do what instead of blindly taking things that work for some. That's what I did in the beginning and it was a real hit and miss type of thing. But I had to do something, I couldn't just lie there suffering. It mostly worked, but after playing around with different things and studying, you can really hone down what you need.

    And I can't let my studying go to waste. I wish I had someone to study for me the first year and a half I was in bed, unable to do anything except breath. I'm really glad THAT part of it is over!

    best wishes

  10. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    I'm using NT Factor. Propax has the same lipid replacement stuff in it plus lots of extra vitamins and other things. I was already taking all that other stuff so I didn't get the Propax.

    I'm using so many things that are targeting the mitos, I can't say how much any one thing is responsible for what, but I found the NT Factor after reading one of Rich Van K's articles and then I found an article by Nicholson also praising lipid replacement therapy. The cell membrane is one thing that can go bad so it sure can't hurt anything to try NT Factor. If you can afford to, obviously. You can search for lipid replacement therapy and the articles will come up.

    Knowing that my mitos have everything to function and I still have problems helps me narrow it down. Plus I probably have been healing up the cell membranes with the NT Factor. I know they're functioning better because I have more energy, but I can't use it. It's there but I'm held back by post exertional malaise and exercise intolerance, to a certain extent. It's just a small part of the enormous collection of problems we have. But you have to tackle them one by one to get better.

    Looking for the causes of the 2 symptoms post exertional malaise and exercise intolerance is what lead me originally to the mitos and now to leaky gut syndrome. It's pretty complicated stuff, I'll probably post on it when I decide what I think are the best things I can do about it. I was mistakenly thinking I was handling it with just glutamine, a mostly good diet (except for cheating here lately), enzymes and probiotics. That's just regular maintenance, though, I have to fix it first.

    PH sells NT Factor, BTW.

    best wishes

  11. droot

    droot New Member


    You are an inspiration to me because I see from you that I can get better! Thank you for all the info you have shared on this message board.

  12. springrose22

    springrose22 New Member

    I am going to print this out so that I can study it more closely without sitting here. Thank you again so much for all the work that you do and for sharing. Marie
  13. LadyCarol

    LadyCarol Member

    What nature foods are best for helping the body to rebuild and repair itself regarding the issues mentioned in the initial post ?
  14. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    I think the best foods are chicken, eggs, fish, raw nuts and seeds, fruits and veggies. You want protein in the morning, you have to have protein for repairs. Use cage free or organic eggs. They are more expensive than regular eggs, but still fairly cheap as far as a food is concerned. They taste heavenly and you won't want to go back to regular diseased white eggs again.

    I have been having a fried egg (in coconut oil) and some chicken for breakfast every morning for months. Don't believe the myths about eating eggs and too much cholesterol and all that. Eggs are great. You body makes much more cholesterol (like about a gram every day) than it could possibly get out of an egg. An egg has about 300 mg, but most of it gets digested, anyway. The adrenals need the cholesterol your liver makes to make hormones.

    Eggs give the adrenals their necessary fats and cholesterol they need to make hormones and my body does very well with protein in the morning. I don't know how I survived all those years eating cereal for breakfast. Several small meals during the day is better than 3 large ones and only eat nuts and seeds raw, as the heated oils of roasted nuts are rancid and are tough for the liver to process.

    Raw veggies and berries have lots of chemicals and antioxidants that we need. Probably the best way to get a substantial amount of what we need from them is to juice them, but mostly green and colorful veggies. You don't want to end up making a fruit punch. Juice the veggies and eat the berries. You want a masticating juicer that takes out virtually all the cellulose which is impossible to digest and can make you sicker. Centrifugal juicers make "porridge" that is full of pulp, even with their very fine screens.

    Here's a good site explaining why green juicing is so nutritious. Look at my profile pic, that's what I've been juicing lately.

    This is a good site that explains what we should avoid and why. It's especially important if you have digestive issues, and most of us do. In fact, if you have yeast issues, you should probably avoid the fruits and root veggies for awhile.

    I will do a post on "comprehensive stool analysis" soon, as I just had it done and it explains my remaining problems. It's very technical and very enlightening. It will take me a little time to put it together. Apparently, I have some serious issues:

    I have certain yeasts and bacteria that are overgrown in my intestines that should not be there at all, a couple of enzymes are off showing liver and kidney detoxification problems, fats are not being properly broken down because of inadequate bile production, I'm way low on my production of hydrochloric acid in the stomach which adds to the over alkalinity of my gut and the massive infestation of "baddies" in it, and also iron deficiency and inflammation are indicated. I am in a state of metabolic acidosis, too, and this, along with the iron problem, are probably the main reasons for the energy problems like exercise intolerance and post exertional malaise. Yes, sounds bad, but it is treatable!

    This was all indicated in the stool analysis and a complete bloodwork analysis. Bummer, my restricted diet just got even more restricted and probably will stay that way for months. That's okay, at this point I have willpower of steel to do what it takes to get over this once and for all.
    I was just told this morning my new diet is: proteins and veggies. That means only meat, fish, chicken, eggs, raw nuts and seeds, and vegetables. Absolutely nothing else, probably for at least 6 months. This is mostly to kill off the yeast. And there will be some more supplements involved.

    best wishes

  15. LadyCarol

    LadyCarol Member

    Thank you for the information Karen.

    For breakfast I eat scrambled eggs or baked beans on toost about 4 times a week and fresh fruit and veg. I also eat wholemeal cereals with skimmed milk and don't have any problems digesting them. Also berry smoothies made from Blackberries, Blueberries, Boysenberries, Apples, Bananas, yummy they are. My digestion in general seems ok. I do however have high cholestrol and I know from blood test results that high saturate foods produce higher readings and I've been told to be careful about eating hi-sat foods.

    Looking forward to hearing more about your other test results.
  16. LadyCarol

    LadyCarol Member

    I hear that vitamin B12 and Co-Q10 are front line big hitters when it comes to tackling superoxide and peroxynitrite build up. Also vitamins E & A & beta-carotene are the second line antioxidants and vitamin C is the ultimate repository of electrons.

    Hence it's essential to have a good supply of all of these on your body to fight off the free radicals that harm us and zap our energy supple.
  17. serg1942

    serg1942 New Member

    Hi Karen,

    First of all, congratulations for your compilation work, and the time you are taking to “fit the pieces” of this terrible illness.

    I have been sick for three years, in which, like you, I am trying to understand this illness all the deep I can, and to find out the connection between the better theories I have found. I have read so far Martin Pall’s book, Dr’s Myhill’s book, Dr’s Bell’s book, Dr. Yasko’s books, Dr. Teiteibaum’s book, and others theories/protocols like those of Cheney, Meirleir, and some others. Of course, I know the work of Rich Konynenburg, and at the moment I am following mainly the Yasko’s protocol, adding the advices of Konynenburg for CFS, and the advices of Dr. Myhill for addressing mitochondrial issues. Nevertheless, I am still opened to all that come to my hands in order to reach some day a cure…

    After this humble work I have done while suffering from severe CFS’s, my conclusion is that methylation could be the key to address all the others abnormalities seen in CFS. The Konynenburg’s paper from the past IAACFS conference in Fluoride was brilliant. His theory explained the theories/observations of Martin Pall, of Dr. Myhill, of Dr. Cheney, Dr. De Meirleir, and many others physicians focused in certain specific parts of the puzzle. After studying more in depth the Yasko’s protocol recommended in the beginning by Konynenburg, I am even more convinced that this theory of the methylation block really may be the core of the problem. Moreover, dr. Myhill has added the methylation issues in CFS to his book like the possible culprit of the mitochondrial failure. In addition, By reading the Pall’s book I realized that, although he didn’t pay much attention to the methylation cycle, really it is intrinsically linked to it, nor only because glutathione is needed for preventing hydrogen peroxide to build up, and thus, preventing inhibition of SOD, and thus preventing superoxide to build up, but also, and think this is even more important, because proper methylation function is needed via folate cycle to recycle BH4, the limiting factor of the urea cycle, and, when this molecule is deficient, arginine is nor properly recycled onto NO+citrulline, but rather superoxide and peroxinitrite are formed!!!

    Attending to the mitochondrial fairule, beside the evident role that SOD plays in preventing it to be damaged, methylation is also needed to form CoQ10 and L-carnitine, vital molecules in the oxidative fosforilation, that is the right aerobic mitochondrial breathing to form ATP.

    Of course B12 deficiency use to be the key in the methylation block, and like you know, it is a good scavenger of these free radicals…So all is irremediably linked!!

    I am so sorry that it is very difficult to me to write in English, since I would like to write even more about my thoughts. Nevertheless I can tell you that I have redacting in Spanish a document explaining my evolution while on the treatment, and there I collect all the ideas I have fit and its main references, like you have done, for certain opened-mind doctors in Spain to study in depth these treatments that I think are rounding, if not yet, the core of the CFS.

    You can see my document here:

    And maybe you can translate it automatically someway.

    Well, anyway, I have enjoying with your message, and I think that you report two very interesting ideas:

    - To increased the enzymes number (until now I am helping SOD activity by replenish my levels of copper, zinc and manganese, and doing the same with the GSH enzymes by raising GSH levels by raising methylation and by taking selenium). I want to study this possibility you bring up to see if really these herbs raise the amount of the enzymes, really not by adding their cofactors, but “telling” to the responsible gene to make more number of them…

    - The fact that for mitochondria to multiply is needed exercise is new to me. And I would like to know the reference from what you have extracted it.

    You say that you have all your work written and that some of it is redistributed in certain posts. Would you mind to send all this information to my mail, for me to be easier to have it? (I am still very sick, and it is difficult to me to be many time looking for information around the forums…)

    I really would like to know more about your ideas and how you have fit the pieces!! Thanks a lot for your message,

    Best wishes,

    [This Message was Edited on 03/25/2008]
  18. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    Hi serg,

    It looks like I'm doing everything you're doing. I'm familiar with all the doctors you've mentioned, though I haven't read any of their books, just what they have on the internet. I'm doing the methylation protocol supplements and also liposomal glutathione everyday. Plus many other supplements like everything I can find for the mitochondria. My new theory, which encompasses the old ones, is that the gut is the problem.

    Have you seen my comprehensive stool analysis thread? My tests showed my gut is in bad shape and that also means the liver is too stressed with improper detoxification problems to perform all of its functions well. That's why I'm having to take so many pills to function. Most of them are to help the liver.

    The liver can get help from these supplements, like the methylation protocol - I would be in very bad shape without them - but it's not going to fix itself if the gut is full of yeast causing an unending accumulation of toxins for the liver and kidneys to deal with. Plus the yeast kill off the good bacteria you need to produce certain enzymes and vitamins in the intestines. Vitamin K, for example, is created in the gut by bacteria.

    I'll take a look at your document (I can probably get google to translate it but if it's too technical it might not be readable) and point you to the other things you wanted. You should go back and delete your email from your post now, it's against the rules for it to be there.

    The mitochondria needing exercise to multiply is something I saw on many bodybuilding websites. Just google for "bodybuilding mitochondria multiply" and you'll find something. Here's just a couple of things about mito multiplication:


    "Exercise increases muscle
    endurance by increasing the amounts of
    mitochondria and myoglobin in muscle cells.
    These responses can be replicated by genetic
    engineering in mice. A key gene involved is
    peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-
    d (PPARd)."


    "Mitochondria have an enzyme that helps them multiply. This enzyme is called polymerase gamma or "pol gamma." It is very similar to HIV's reverse transcriptase enzyme. Unfortunately, this means that the drugs we use to inhibit reverse transcriptase can also inhibit pol gamma. When this happens, fewer new mitochondria are produced."

    this is from

    The AdN translocation system serves not only to transport ATP synthesized within mitochondria into the cytosol but also to transport cytosolic ATP into the mitochondria when oxidative phosphorylation is not functioning.
    2. The AdN translocator is coded for by nuclear genes and the mitochondrial protein synthesis is not involved in its formation.
    3. The AdN translocation system must be preserved and functioning even in cells which could dispense with oxidative phosphorylation. It assures appropriate concentrations of intramitochondrial ATP.
    4. The intramitochondrial ATP is required for normal replication of mitochondrial DNA. This supports the view that the mitochondrion is a self-replicating semi-autonomous organelle.
    5. The appropriate concentration of ATP must be present in mitochondria to make possible cell growth or multiplication. This points to a direct or indirect role of mitochondria in the control of cell proliferation.

    thanks for stopping by, it looks like you don't get here much

  19. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    Thank you for a fantastic post! There is so much good information here. I've already been doing what I thought was needed to help the mitochondria, but your enzyme information is all new to me. I am copying this all to read at my leisure. I don't know where you get the energy to absorb and write about all of this.

    Since doing the methylation protocol for several months off and on, my crashes are getting lighter and shorter, but I do still crash with depressing frequency if I'm not careful. So maybe these enzymes will be a missing link? We'll see --

    Thanks again!

  20. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    I just received the "sprout" pills yesterday and took 3 this a.m. (afraid to start with 6, wanted to see how I would react), so far, so good. Tomorrow I'll probably go with six.

    But what is really amazing to me is the apple cider vinegar for malic acid. I never connected the two. I've taken malic acid supplements off and on in the last several years, a few times it gave me a noticeable increase in energy, but then wore off. Anyways, I was achy yesterday as I am a lot (after not doing a whole lot) and I remembered this post and took a 1/2 tsp. of ACV and awhile later another 1/2 tsp. and within an hour or two, the achiness was clearing up. I took some more later in the day and by late afternoon I felt closer to "normal" than I have in a long time.

    This morning I was achy again, so took some more ACV.

    Apple cider vinegar can cause detoxing. When I first tried some years ago, I had a bad detox reaction (I took one or two tablespoons at a time, a couple of times a day). So this time am being very cautious with it, so far no detoxing, and it's possible that the methylation protocol has gotten rid of some of the toxins already.

    Anyways, thanks again for this very good information, and also money-saving! ACV is one the few cheap very good things out there --


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