My Methyl Supplements journal

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Aelf, Mar 17, 2007.

  1. Aelf

    Aelf New Member

    Hi all,

    I'm going to be posting a daily journal here about my experiences with the methylation protocol which you can read about here: http://phoenix-cfs.org/GSH%20Methylation%20Treatment%20Konynenburg.htm

    Since I don't have much today, I will be updating this daily in hope that it will be useful to some.

    ------------------------------------------------------
    Day 1 (yesterday, 03/16/07)

    Supplements: 1/2 folapro tab, 1/2 b12 intrinsic, 1 phosphlipid gelcap, multivitamin, 1 ml methylation support nutriswitch formula, 1 capsule SAMe, 1000mg TMG, sublingual B12 2000mcg. 1 tbsp cod liver oil (mainly because I don't have a separate vitamin D supplement at this point). I took the SAMe in the morning, the rest after breakfast.



    Herbs etc: Ginkgobiloba, grape seed, grapine, some chinese herbs, green tea, garlic, milk thistle, chollera. I take my herbs after meals, 3x per day usually.

    Undenatured whey: 10 grams (before dinner)


    How I felt:

    Morning: Slightly more sluggish than usual
    Noon: Same as morning
    Night: Felt good, don't understand why.

    ------------------------------------------------

    Day 2 (today 03/17/07)

    Supplements: Same as day 1
    Herbs: Same as day 1

    Undenatured whey: 20 g (10g before breakfast, and dinner)

    How I felt:

    Morning: Before i took the methylation cycle sups I was having an average morning, afterwards I felt very drained (I assume I am detoxing as these pills shouldn't have this effect on a heatlhy individual right?).

    Afternoon: Same as morning, headache almost all day. Detox seems to be much more severe as compared to yesterday.

    Night: Same as afternoon, though slightly better since I nearly always seem to feel better at night (anyone else seem to feel this?)

    My head is pretty fogged but I hope this is a good summary. Tomorrow I am going to try taking the methylation supplements at night, but I will still be taking the herbs/undenatured whey during the daytime. Detoxing seems to be very harsh and I would like to sleep through it if possible.
  2. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I'm really glad you're keeping this journal. Thank you!!!

    Best, Lisa

  3. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    So headaches are a pretty common effect of this detoxing from these supplements, huh? It sounds that way, from what people have said.

    Have you felt any nausea?

    I hope things will get better for you and that this protocol will work!

    Forebearance
  4. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    i definitely relate to the prolonged sluggish, yucky feeling though.

    Hey aelf, u might want to pump up yr water intake.

    And I take my methyl supps at nite. feel lousey in the morning. takes me a while to get going. But boy, is my brain clear!

    Keep at it.

    Wishing u the best
    delia
  5. cct

    cct Member

    Thanks for starting this journal and thanks for sharing it with us.

    I am very interested to learn about your experiences with this treatment protocol. I will be reading your journal everyday!
  6. Aelf

    Aelf New Member

    Today was pretty uneventful, because I'm going to take the methyl supplements before I sleep tonight. Here is an updated list of what should be all of the supplements I am taking. This list is complete and I will let you all know if there are any changes.

    Nutrition and Herbs:

    Cod liver Oil (1 tbsp)
    Grape seed extract
    Chinese Herbs
    Olive leaf
    Ginkgo biloba
    Green Tea
    Chollera
    Garlic
    Milk Thistle
    Powdered Greens (2x daily)
    Acai Berry Juice
    Flax Seeds (1 tbsp ground)
    Soy Lecithin
    Coconut Oil (up to 3 tbsp)
    Glyconutrients (ambrotose, by mannatech 1g daily)
    Cell Food
    Probiotics (6 strands, 12 billion cells, x1)
    -------------
    Vitamins etc:

    Trimethylglycene (3000mg)
    Methylation RNA mixture (1 ml)
    1/2 folapro tablet
    1/2 instrinc b12 tab
    SAMe (200mg)
    B12 sublingual (2000mcg)
    Multivitamin
    Phospholipid tablet
    Vitamin C (2grams)
    ------------------

    Undenatured whey - Around 20g. This is an estimate. I managed to lose the measuring scoop, but I'm used to losing things by now, haha. I am still taking this once before breakfast, and once before dinner.
    --------------------------------

    How I felt:

    Morning: Pretty average, maybe slightly worse
    Afternoon: Average
    Night: Average, energy maybe a bit higher than usual.


    This is expected as I did not take the supplements today. I have not experienced any nausea, but I am lucky enough to be able to tolerate things pretty well.

    I'm going to take the methyl supplements now, so tomorrow's update should be more significant. If you have any questions, feel free to ask :).


    [This Message was Edited on 03/18/2007]
    [This Message was Edited on 03/18/2007]
  7. Aelf

    Aelf New Member

    Same supplements as before.

    Kind of an odd day. I felt pretty well in the morning, which very rarely happens (morning is my worst time). I was able to function very quickly, when it usually takes me a long time to get going. Energy levels seemed higher. I am sleeping about an hour more than usual, averaging around 10-11 hours a day now instead of 8-10, so that may have something to do with it. Afternoon I started to feel awful. I felt completely drained of energy, and my head felt very very heavy. I was unable to focus long enough to read or do anything besides lay down and watch TV. This may have been due to the high sulfur content of my lunch. For lunch I always blend many dark green cruciferous vegetables with fruit, and these vegetables are high in sulfur.

    I read somewhere in a post by Rich Van K. that it would be a good idea to reduce the amount of sulfur intake during this protocol. For some reason sulfur metabolism seems to be a problem, although I don't really understand this. I am not sure whether to stop eating these vegetables or not, because there are many important nutrients in them as well.

    Now in the evening, I am still feeling dragged, and worse than usual. However, I'm slightly better than the afternoon , and am able to type up this post.

    I am concerned about the sulfur metabolism, because this is the only thing that would explain why I felt better in the morning. That almost never happens, I generally feel better now, during the evening.

    What I don't know is whether or not the green vegetables are aiding in detox, or whether there is some other problem. I'm having a hard time distinguishing whether or not my symptoms are due to detoxing, or some other problem. It's very hard to tell, because my day to day symptoms can vary quite a bit.

    I am considering lowering the TMG to 1-2g instead of 3g, I'm not exactly sure why I took this much in the first place. I will probably try to eat vegetables which contain less sulfur for now, and see if there is a noticable improvement.

    I didn't feel any (or very little) detox from the methylation supplements yesterday night, or this morning. I am not sure why this is. I'm not going to increase the dose, because it is probably better to do this slowly than quickly. I just wish I knew what was causing my abnormal fatigue this afternoon and evening.

    Sorry for the long winded post. I will update again tomorrow, hopefully on a more positive note. Any feedback or advice is always appreciated (especially from Rich).

  8. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, aelf.

    Sorry you felt crummy in the afternoon. That is quite a bit of TMG. Coming down some on it may help.

    As far as the sulfur is concerned, since we don't know what your polymorphisms are, it's hard to be very specific about that. Some PWCs have either upregulation SNPs in their cystathionine beta synthase enzyme, or a downregulation SNP in their sulfite oxidase enzyme, or a molybdenum deficiency. Any or all of these can cause problems with sulfur-containing substances when you start cranking up your methylation cycle. Probably the best approach is to try to use veggies that don't have so much sulfur, and to supplement moly if you aren't already doing it.

    If you continue to feel bad, dropping back on the dosages for the folate and B12 supplements and the TMG might help. It's kind of a compromise between wanting to get things ramped up to normal, but also wanting to have a tolerable rate of detox and die-off. Amy Yasko recommends getting a urine toxic metals test run when you are trying to decide whether the bad feelings are coming from detox, which is accomplishing something good, or whether they are a reaction to a supplement, which is not helping.

    I hope this helps.

    Rich

    Rich
  9. tansy

    tansy New Member

    Rich's advice is similar to what I did, I found keeping levels very low (and taking molybdenum) helped. Now I tolerate relatively small amounts of sulphur, and know it when I have consumed too much.

    Good luck with your regime. Learning about methylation appears to have been a turning point for me; in terms of gaining a better understanding and opening up and increasing my options.

    TC, Tansy
  10. Aelf

    Aelf New Member

    Rich, thanks for your response. I really appreciate the time you're taking to interact with the board and answer questions, and I'm sure everyone else does too.

    A couple of changes today. First, I am reducing the folapro and intrinsic b12 down to around 1/3 of a pill to see if this helps with the feeling, as well as the TMG to 1g.

    I forgot to include that on a whim I took MSM yesterday, because I read it was a methyl donor. I also forgot to keep in mind that it was a sulfur compound.

    So this may have contributed to the possible sulfur metabolism issue, but I'm not sure I have a problem with this either.

    Another small change, which may or may not have any relevance, is that I forgot to put my olive leaf extract in my vitamin chest during days 1-3. I doubt this had any major impact, but looking back on this later who knows.


    Today felt much like yesterday. I was generally exhausted the entire day, and didn't end up moving much. I avoided sulfur containing vegetables for the most part today, but I did have feel any significant difference.

    Oddly enough, the methylation supplements seem to increase my energy now, rather than causing a detox reaction. I'm not sure why this would be.

    Overall, my symptoms have been exacerbated during the last 3-4 days fatigue especially. This is a separate feeling from the detox, which just makes me 'sluggish'. It's hard to describe the difference.

    I was depressed for a while today, which is rather unlike me. I suspect this is because of the SAMe, and if it continues I will most likely not take it anymore.



    I am hoping that the increased fatigue is somehow due to viruses being killed off. This could also be from the glutathione in the undenatured whey. I will going to an infectious disease doctor soon, and hopefully will be able to run tests regarding glutathione, the usual CFS viruses, and other useful information (maybe vitamin D perhaps).

    I had my heavy metals tested several months ago, and they weren't too out of range. They were high, but nothing extraordinary. I believe my highest were mercury, lead, and aluminum, but none of the percentiles were above the 68th. I'm not sure how significant this is.


    I am finding it increasingly difficult to attribute my symptoms to anything. Maybe it was a bad idea to take the methylation supplements at night, because now they seem to increase my energy.

    I have been getting very discouraged at times, because I feel like I am at the same place as three months ago, when I started doing everything I could to get better. This isn't a plea for sympathy, I just want to record exactly how I have been feeling in the journal.

    I'm starting to get drained of energy again, it seems that typing this post has taken it out of me. I really hope that this extreme (even more than usual) fatigue is somehow helping me in the long run, otherwise I may have a long way to go.

    If any of you have additional ideas on what would be useful to ask the infectious disease doctor to test for I'd be happy to hear them.
  11. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    i don't know that I wld get discouraged. I think our reaction is similar.. sluggishness, muggy-headed feeling, greater fatigue.

    I sleep a good 8/10 hrs at nite, and now I'm napping during the day too which I hadn't done in a long time before starting this protocol.

    But I feel more and more normal by the day. The sleep is refreshing. Both naps and overnight.

    It's frustrating to need that sleep/rest but it feels healing.And I'm definitely seeing a pay-off in physical and mental well-being.

    Maybe it's harder for you to see the payoff, but I had been on transfer factor for 6 months before embarking on methyls supps (not planned.. jsut worked out that way), so I ASSUME I had got my viral load down.

    Maybe your body has a higher toxic burden right now .. viruses and toxins.. so it might take u longer to feel well?

    So I guess I wouldn't be too depressed if you don't see a quick pay-off. You do have to be vigilant not to overwhelm your body though...

    Good luck
    Delia
  12. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    so I looked at your list of supplements, and they all seemed pretty reasonable to my untrained eye.

    One thing that occurs to me though: you're taking methyl supps plus a greenfood twice a day, which also speeds up detox.

    This is what dncnfngrs was doing, and she felt a bit overwhelmed by the detox effect. I think Rich advised her to back off on the greenfood?

    Check her posts. It's on the methylation experiences thread.

    Just a thought.
    Delia
  13. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    1) My experience with this protocol is that the supplements remain active in the body (in terms of detoxification) for at least a couple of days. The first day, nothing may happen. But after another day or two, they start to add up. It's not like (for me) I took them and then 12 hours later the effect was over. It was more like 48+ hours.

    2) In light of the above, your statement that you feel good right after the supplements suggests that one of them is giving you a short-term lift that may not be related to the glutathione stuff. My guess is that it's the SAMe, which can lift mood and create awakeness pretty quickly.

    Conversely, if you always feel bad right after taking the supplemements, I'd guess it was that one didn't agree with you. Feeling bad on a more continual basis (perhaps with slight waves) seems more consistent with the effects experienced. (Or, as in my case, continually bad/good---bad in some ways and good in others.)

    3) Is there any reason that the SAMe and the others need to be taken at the same time? In any case, based on what I've read, it's better to take SAMe in the morning.

    4) I took 1/2 tablet of each of those tablets just one time, and it really knocked my socks off for about three days. Rich's recommendation (1/4 tablet) seems like nothing, but that's not true. Even Delia said she had gone down on the dose a bit.

    5) You're taking a whole lot of different methyl block supplements. I wonder if they work synergistically (and you need to take a small amount of all of them to get an effect) or if adding them one at a time would allow you to get a better handle on what they do. Rich van K or someone else with more knowledge would have to explain.

    6) What does Ambrotose do for you, do you think? I've not found that many people who have used it, and have started experimenting with it myself. It would be interesting to know if it has a positive or negative (or neutral) interaction with these supplements.

    *

    This is based only on my own experience with the methyl block supplements for about three weeks. I will be interested to read about your progress as time goes on.

    Best,

    Lisa
  14. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    the Sam-e in the morning on an empty stomach. I take the TMG after a meal per the bottle instructions. The remainder I take right before bedtime.

    I've heard that Sam-e can interfere with sleep, and some folks say not to take it after 2pm... For what it's worth.

    Cfslyme over on the Yasko list who is doing this protocol is also reporting the tired feeing by the way...

    And yeah I backed off the dose one night! but mostly I'm at one tablet of everything.. More of the Sam-e.. but that's just random.

    Delia
  15. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Do you think the fact that you took all that glutathione (including a lot of nebulised glutathione) for six months or so might explain why you're tolerating the methyl cycle block supplements better than some people here?

    Or, if Rich reads this post---what do you think?

    Best, Lisa

  16. Aelf

    Aelf New Member

    My energy levels today have returned to how they were before the protocol. This may because I only took 1/3 of a folapro and b12 pill today. My brain is still just as fogged, but I've always been told that my head will come back last anytime I am getting better (although it's what I miss the most).

    @ delia - I've been takin in obscene amounts of green food (both powdered and raw) for a long time now, so I don't think this is the causing too much detoxification. I had also been taking chollera for about 2 months prior to this protocol, so hopefully most of my mercury has been chelated beforehand.

    @ delia and spacee - thanks for the tip about SAMe. I have been staying up later than usual, and this might have been the reason. I'll start taking it in the morning starting tomorrow.

    @ lisa - Thanks for all the comments. I'm not sure about the methyl block supplements either, especially since I don't know for sure whether or not I have a methylation block. I agree with you about the supplements though, they seem to stay with me for a long time.

    About ambrotose: I'm not sure why I take it still, but my aunt's friend was cured of turret syndrome by it and she insisted I take it. Ambrotose is just glyconutrients (or the essential sugars), all together in supplement form. I've read elsewhere that the body can convert different types of sugars to create the 'essential' ones, but ambrotose ensures that you get them all. Personally, I have been taking them for at least 4-5 months now, and they have not made a noticable difference. They are probably good in general for the overall health benefits, however there are cheaper ways to get the essential sugars. There are recipes for them online, just google glyconutrients recipe and you should find something if you're interested.

    Tonight I may reduce the amount of folapro/b12 even more tonight and see if it correlates with my fatigue.

    Thanks for all the feedback!

    Aelf
  17. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Hey, Aelf, for what it's worth, Sam-e doesn't seem to agree with me. It makes me feel weird and like I'm not myself. I could tell that it was affecting my brain in some way, and I was uncomfortable with it. But that's just me.

    In case it doesn't agree with you, you're not alone.

    Forebearance
  18. Aelf

    Aelf New Member

    Today is a relatively good day. I am not dragging as much and feel somewhat more focused than usual. I woke up in the middle of the night and felt nauseous and my stomach hurt. Oddly enough, I felt best in the morning, and my energy seems to be declining slightly throughout the day. I have not had any headaches since the last time I mentioned them.

    @ dncnfngrs - That's a lot of questions, haha. I am definitely interested in your input, especially since you're studying herbs and you support a holistic healing method (which is what I prefer as well).

    Regarding the questions:

    - I am no longer getting headaches, and I get some moly from cell food every day. Sulfur containing vegetables don't give me a headache, and this is suppose to be the main symptom of problems with sulfur digestion. So I'm no longer worried about that.

    - I was not aware that green tea or chollera or spirulina could caause absorbtion problems in my other supplements (and food). I would like to know more about this if you could expand, and I've listed the amounts of what I take further down in this post.

    - I'm no longer taking the chinese herbs. I got them from an acupuncturist, one was called 'clear mind' and the other was written in chinese. The other chinese herbs I ran out of were a TCM anti-herpes virus formula consisting of: Dandelion Whole Plant, Purslane Tops, Indigo Leaves and Root, Thlaspi Whole Plant, Buplerum Root, Typhonium Rhizome, Scut Root, Cinnamon Twig, Licorice Root, and Ginseng Root. I may purchase this again in the near future though.

    - My detoxing is a little strange. The first few times I took the supplements, afterwards I would feel sluggish and slow but in a DIFFERENT way than how I normally feel. However, during days 3-4 the 'detox' was more like my symptoms just getting worse. The extra fatigue and exhaustion wasn't different than how I normally felt, I just felt worse. I haven't noticed anything different about my stools. I hope this clears it up, but it's rather hard to explain.

    - My green tea is in the form: "Green Tea Extract (Camellia sinensis) plant part: leaf, 95% polyphenols, 40% EGCG, 300mg. I take this twice daily.

    - I am currently taking 750 mg of chollera and spirulina daily, but was planning on lowering the dosage.

    - My garlic is in the form: "Dried Garlic Bulb Powder 400mg", and it also says "Allicin Yield 4mg" although I don't know what that means. I take this once or twice daily.

    - I am taking 450 mg milk thistle daily (standardized to contain 80% silymarin). There is a dandelion plant in the TCM Anti-viral forumula, so I may just pick this up again. Could you explain how these two are synergistic for me?

    - The green food I take is called "earth's promise, the goodness of Green". It has a small amount of fruit as well to add to the taste (which is actually pretty good). I take about 2 servings or 27g daily. I can list all of what this contains later if you'd like.

    - The acai berry juice is (unfortunately) made from freeze dried powder. I wasn't able to find anything else.

    - I have been taking flax seeds for the perceived health benefits (raw food is good right?). I'm not sure if I'm estrogen dominant or deficient.

    - I eat two servings of lecithin granuals from soy which is about 30g (i think). I take this to help with memory problems. It is also supposed to help with the heart and liver.

    - The coconut oil I eat is from the brand 'Nutiva'. It's certified organic, raw, cold pressed, unrefined, and extra-virgin. I eat this throughout the day, using it in place of butter. Lately I have been eating more of it, because it seems to give me more energy. Lauric acid (which is only found in tropical oils and breastmilk), is supposed to be an antiviral as well.


    - I take cell food with "dissolved oxygen, trace minerals, plant source amino acids, and enzymes." I wasn't aware that there are multiple types. I take about 500-1000 mg of this daily.

    - I have upped my probiotic use to 2x daily (I just hadn't mentioned it), and will consider moving it to 3x daily after meals. My gut is for the most part ok, the only problems I run across is stomach pain during the night.

    - The multivitamin I am using is the one they recommend in Rich's protocol. It's called Neurological Health Formula, and is made by holistic health.

    - I have no idea what oil pulling is. Please elborate :).

    My diet:

    My diet is one of the first things that I made fairly strict. I eat large amounts of fruits and vegetables, some grains and seeds/nuts, and occasionaly white meat or fish. I don't eat any dairy except for the undenatured whey. The bread I eat is usually sprouted grains, however I haven't eliminated gluten yet (I should probably do this eventually to see if it helps). The fruits I usually eat are grapefruits, blueberries, raspberries, cherries, etc. Mainly berries. The vegetables I usually eat are: carrots, kale, spinach, broccoli, collard greens, beets, potatoes (sometimes), sprouts of all sorts, avacados, tomatoes, and some others. I have been eating a large amount of these for a while now. The blender helps mix fruit and vegetables together so I can drink them instead of chewing.


    Thanks for all your input, I'm eager to hear your responses.
    [This Message was Edited on 03/22/2007]
  19. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    Yep. Definitely relate to that. Wld like to get Richs' take on that.

    It's gotta be detox.. cos I never get nauseous. Never. Apart from CFS. I have a constitution of iron. Ha.

    delia
  20. cct

    cct Member

    I am following along . . reading all of the posts.

    Unfortunately, I do not have anything to add to the conversation because I am so very unknowledgeable about this subject.

    I will keep reading and through everyone's discussion, I will learn more.

    aelf, thanks for posting all of your day-to-day experiences.