Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Slayadragon, Jan 22, 2007.

  1. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I have been taking a moderate dose (500 mg) of the antiviral Famvir for the past three months. I am continuing to herx on it at a moderate level.

    The last time I went to my doctor, he said that he thought I would remain on Famvir for a total of four months and then switch to Valcyte for another two months. (That plan could change as time goes on.)

    He also suggested that I use Nattokinase to help with my virus-killing endeavors. A description of this product is below.

    My questions:

    Do you think this product will make me herx more?

    Regardless, should I add the Nattokinaise now? Or should I wait until later in the process?

    (I'm not sure I'm ever going to stop herxing on the AV's alone, by the way.)



    NSK–SD™ (Nattokinase)
    Promotes healthy fibrinolytic activity for healthy blood flow and cardiovascular function
    *A traditional Japanese vegetable–derived cheese used for over 1,000 years, natto has been prized for both its popular taste and vascular support properties. Natto is produced by a fermentation process when Bacillus natto (also known as Bacillus subtilis natto) is added to boiled soybeans. Nattokinase, a fibrinolytic enyzme isolated from natto, helps to maintain healthy activity of the body's natural clotting and fibrinolytic processes. This enzyme has demonstrated enhanced oral fibrinolytic potential when compared with other fibrinolytic enzymes from over 200 foods. Fibrinolysis is a natural physiological process. As the body ages, however, endogenous fibrinolytic activity declines. One study suggested that nattokinase maintains healthy plasminogen activator inhibitor activity, supporting healthy fibrinolytic function. Nattokinase may also metabolize fibrin in much the same way as plasmin. In another study, nattokinase provided positive support for healthy circulation in animals. In an additional animal study conducted by Biotechnology Research Laboratories and JCR Pharmaceuticals of Kobe, Japan, nattokinase promoted healthy blood flow. Furthermore, researchers from JCR Pharmaceuticals, Oklahoma State University and Miyazaki Medical College examined the effect of nattokinase from natto food consumption in 12 healthy Japanese participants. The results suggested that natto supported healthy clotting function compared to placebo. In 1995, scientists at the Miyazaki Medical College and Kurashiki University in Japan demonstrated the potential for nattokinase to support blood vessel health in human subjects. Nattokinase is water–soluble and absorbed via alpha–2 macroglobulins in the intestines. It has demonstrated the ability to be absorbed without the need for enteric coating, as it is stable under gastric conditions. A single oral dose toxicity study of nattokinase in animals suggested that doses of nattokinase hundreds of times greater than that used for human supplementation has been shown to be safe. This product is contraindicated for individuals with a history of bleeding tendency or with conditions associated with bleeding. Due to potential synergistic effects, concurrent use with anticoagulant and blood pressure medications should be closely supervised by a health professional.

    NSK–SD™ is a highly purified fibrinolytic enzyme that has demonstrated encouraging potential for supporting endogenous fibrinolytic activity and promoting healthy blood flow, circulation, and blood vessel function. Pure Encapsulations NSK– SD™ is standardized to contain a minimum of 20,000 FU (fibrinolytic units) per gram.
  2. cherylsue

    cherylsue Member

    I've been taking Nattokinase Plus by Vesta Pharmaceuticals. I purchased it from ProHealth. I've been on 1 capsule a day without any apparent side effects.

    After watching Dr. Cheney's DVD, he advises that CFS patients take it to avoid clots/strokes due to PFO's.

    I've had a fibrinogen test taken and I was in the normal range level. I did the math and I figured that normal range was at the 79% level. I also had an echocardiogram test taken recently which was normal. However, because my father died from heart disease, my mother suffered a stroke, and my blood pressure elevated, I've decided nattokinase would be a good thing for me to take.

    However, Lisa, according to Ken Lessessen's FWIW protocol, enzymes and antivirals should not be taken at the same time because of the intense herxing. These are Lassesen's exact words:

    "Warning: You should stop the fibrin dissolving enzymes before starting anti-pathogens. These enzymes potentate anti-pathogens and can result in major herxheimer reaction. You should start all anti-pathogens at a very low level and increase slowly to keep the herxheimer reaction reasonable."

    Also:" Once you have stopped herxing from the antipathogens, you should resume with fibrin dissolving enzymes. Again, start at a low level and slowly increase as the herx will likely return as the enzymes allow antipathogens to reach deeper infections."

    Mr. Lassesen is not a doctor, but I believe his whole family came down with CFS and later recovered. He worked with a doctor, and this is the protocol he feels helped him. It is pretty much like the FFC's although there is staging and a timetable. Unlike the FFC, not everything is thrown at you at once. It's something to consider, although nobody really has the answer to this disease. Everyone responds differently.

  3. Pianowoman

    Pianowoman New Member

    My Doctor is a hematologist and is quite concerned about us taking Natto and other things like it without proper monitoring. There are quite a few tests that need to be done and I'm not even sure what they all are. Apparently, one problem is that one can dislodge clots in vital places if we don't know they are there. That, obviously can be dangerous.

    There does seem to be some merit in breaking down the fibrin for some people. I think, though, that this is one more thing that we still don't know enough about.

  4. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    There's a little bit of it in Virastop. It's one of the protein-digesting enzymes.

    What Mr. Lassesen says makes some sense, because it would be another anti-viral thing on top of the prescription anti-viral.

  5. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I'm not quite _that_ foolhardy, dncnfngrs! I didn't mean to do stuff that would be hard on my system last week (except for the Virastop experiment). It caught me by surprise afterwards, like your licorice tea.

    Sounds like Natto is potent stuff.

    I think it sounds like I definitely should try to use it at some point while on the AV. There's no point in going to all this trouble to kill stuff if some of it is going to remain behind and then proliferate again.

    On the other hand, doing it while I'm still herxing from the Famvir and/or weak from my own immune system kicking in to kill viruses sounds like a very bad idea.

    I'm certainly not going to do it while I've got a cold like this one. And if Forebearance is any example, it's possible I could have colds for weeks and weeks or longer.

    I'm very suspicious of the idea that I'm going to be "done" with the Famvir and ready to move to Valcyte in another month. It seems to me there's a lot to be done on this drug at this dose. If I move to Valcyte before I'm "done", I bet I'll get a big herx on that too.

    I wonder too if getting at the viruses in the fibrin needs to be done in addition to the "top-off" of the stronger drug. If neither of these drugs can't get deep down at the viruses they're supposed to kill, I am suspicious of the thought that they're not going to come back.

    My doctor has experience with this, but he also said I'm in worse shape with regard to those immune measures than his other patients (also very sick). So we shall see.

    Meanwhile, thank you all very much for the feedback. That was very very helpful and exactly what the board is for. (If it weren't for the board, I'd have just taken it and then gotten a big surprise.)

    I promise to hide the bottle and stay far away from it until I start to improve.

  6. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    At least part of the idea of breaking down the fibrin is because viruses hide in it. If you get the viruses out in the open, then your immune system (weak as it may be) can try to take care of them.

    More viral killing by your immune system takes energy. It also results in dead bugs that need to be carted away, which takes more energy.

    Having the bugs be out in the open rather than hiding may temporarily make you feel worse too.

    I don't know how long this will last. Let us know if you stay on it.

    All: correct me if I'm wrong on this. Obviously I'm no fibrin expert or I wouldn't be asking my question aboutit to begin with.
  7. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    The plan is Famvir for four months, Valcyte for another two.

    This seems too short to me. But with regular pulsing after that, maybe it's not.

    Dr. Guyer's really big on testing, and so I imagine he'll re-do that panel (NK Cell activity, alpha interferon, Rnase-L, apoptosis) before phasing me off.

    Like everything else, supposedly the fibrin goes back to normal once you get rid of the disabling viruses and get the immune system working.

    (I love this theory for its simplicity. It's a very different intellectual approach than the one Cheney uses.)

    So again, it seems a matter of how fast you want to go.

    Fast means more herxing. No herxing means things will take forever, I think. But too much herxing isn't conducive to systems repair, which is the main goal.

    Too much herxing isn't fun either. And herxing _constantly_ is extremely boring.

    I will try to keep to a middle ground, and will put the Natto bottle out of sight and mind for the time being. :)

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