NK Cell Activity

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Slayadragon, Dec 3, 2006.

  1. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Delia,

    You wrote on another post that you had had a Nk Cell activity test done.

    what were the results? Have you had other immune related tests done?

    if anyone else has had tests done, I'd be grateful to hear about them as well.
    [This Message was Edited on 12/04/2006]
  2. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    my NK cell activity was 5 LUs.. on a scale where normal is 8-170.

    The doc (in a letter) said this was "compatable" with what he had seen in other CFS patients. In other words, horrifying.

    No, i have not had the Immunesciences CFS panel done. Don't know if he knows about it.. or maybe he just doesn't order it cos it isn't covered by insurance.

    I am sure my viral load would be thru the roof.

    delia
  3. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Mine was 4, and the normal was >17. I didn't realize how _much_ greater that could be, though.

    If numbers for normal people go into the 100's, does that mean they're fighting off some sort of acute infection or something? Or do some people just have super-effective immune systems?

    I wonder what my mother's result on this test would be like. I've had genetic testing that suggests that my immune system indeed is very problematic. My maternal grandfather is the one who I think had CFS, and both my brother and I have it. (In theory, that would seem to make my mother a "carrier," wouldn't it?) She does indeed have a good amount of fatigue.....she works at a full-time job, but spends most of the rest of the time pretty exhausted.

    If her numbers were low-normal, that would be interesting, since it would suggest that there were people (maybe many of them related to CfS patients) who had ""mini-CFS"---not full-blown enough to "count" under current criteria, but enough to cause problems in their lives.

    If this is the case, presumably whatever worked for us would work for them. Upon reflection, that would be _terrific_ if that were the case and it were shown to be true. A bigger potential target market means more incentive for drug companies to invest money into drugs that might help us.

  4. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    but my assumption is that my NK cell activity is low because my immune system has been fighting a stealth virus for 10 years.. or because of some immune system disfunction related to long-term viral overload.

    I do not think it is genetic.

    I assume it will recover as I remove the toxic burden on my body.

    delia
  5. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I'm too tired from the anti-viral to do a check on this, so I'm going to post the question on the board and see what people say.

  6. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

  7. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I wonder how right Cheney's theories are though.

    In most realms there are competing theories, not just one guy coming up with them and being believed by everyone. I've read his work and they don't seem to have any definitive _proof_ behind them.

    That doesn't mean I think they're wrong. I just don't know that they're right.

    Surely someone else is thinking about these things? I wonder who that might be.
  8. horselover2

    horselover2 New Member

    hi - yes, mine was a 4, normal range 8-170, good question, if you had a 10, are you normal?? as compared to someone with a 170???
    i've been on low dose naltrexone for about 2mos. now. going in for blood work soon, curious to see if it improved my nk level??
    anne
  9. turtlesyndrome

    turtlesyndrome New Member

    I had my Natural Killer Cell activity tested at ImmuneSciences Lab.
    Mine was 11.40 and the range was 20-50
  10. Hootie1

    Hootie1 New Member

    Mine was 20- I think, but my FFC doc said that this is still considered low
  11. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    I'm also interested in Cheney's RNase-L claim. Here's an excerpt from an article about his protocol which makes me think it isn't just theory. He claims RNase-L destroys messenger RNA (this is how it kills viruses) but it doesn't distinguish between human and viral messenger RNA. So it destroys ours, too, which disrupts protein synthesis in every cell and causes widespread havoc in the body:

    " I never will forget, in 1991 I was sitting in a hotel room with Dr. Suhadolnik when he was first presenting these data on RNase-L. He was showing these electrophoretic gels. [Electrophoresis is a method of separating out different chemicals in a mixture; they appear in different places on a gel slide.] You incubate human lymphocyte cytoplasms with a target messenger RNA. [Lymphocytes are immune system cells, and cytoplasm is the substance of the cell, excluding the nucleus and the cell wall. The purpose of the experiment is to see what RNase-L does to the target RNA.] The RNase-L digests the target RNA into little pieces, and the pieces migrate all the way down the gel, and you can basically see little pieces of the RNA target displayed on the gel. He showed the gels of CFIDS patients, and of course he's a wonderful man and a wonderful scientist, and he's all excited about these blank gels he's showing to the group huddled in the hotel room. He says, "Look! Look, do you see this? Do you see this?" And I looked at these gels, and I said, "But Robert, there's nothing on the gel." And he said, "I know, I know; don't you understand?" I said, "No." He said "Well, it's because the RNase-L digested everything, digested it all completely, into such little tiny pieces that they had migrated completely off the gel into the gutter." He went on to say that the RNase-L of these patients will digest in 60 seconds a target ribosome that the RNase-L of a normal human being cannot digest in 60 minutes of incubation. [Ribosomes are spherical bodies within cells that are the sites of protein synthesis.]
    When I finally understood that this tremendous rate of destruction of messenger RNA was going on, it suddenly dawned on me; I went from not understanding why these people were so sick to understanding why they were so very sick. And I remember the hairs standing up on the back of my neck as I realized, "I now understand this. I understand why they can be that sick, yet not really look like they should be that sick, because they have a disturbed physiologic system that's simply over-producing RNase-L and destroying messenger RNA" [and their cells are so badly damaged that they can't function].

    Phase II--you'll notice that it's still pretty miserable, but there is also increasing dysfunction. This is the triad phase, and it's characterized by xenobiotic toxicity [from toxins foreign to the body]. This involves the gut toxins described by McGregor and the UCLA group. The organ with the greatest rate of protein synthesis, which would be most affected by RNase-L is the liver, and if RNase-L is chewing up messenger RNA and destroying the liver enzymes that are used to detoxify, how would you detoxify the portal circulation? [The portal circulation takes blood from the small intestine to the liver. This blood carries nutrients absorbed from the intestine, and also toxins from the intestine. A healthy liver detoxifies this blood before it circulates to the rest of the body.] And the answer is, you wouldn't. What would the portal circulation do to you if you didn't detoxify it? It would make you really sick. But sick in a different way; it would make you poison sick; you'd feel as if you were poisoned rather than sick with a virus. That is exactly what happens, and that is what we think really characterizes this transition from a viral phase to more of a poisoning phase.
    And then the last shift is to Phase III where there's a big drop in misery, because miracles do happen, and the miracle is that RNase-L seems to downregulate. That improves xenobiotic toxicity problems, and then you're left simply with the damage done [by these toxins] to the brain, the hypothalamic area, the controller of these dynamic hormones. You also have these DNA gene rearrangements. So you're still left without the processes that allow you to exceed boundaries. So you have a big boundary problem, but you don't feel so miserable."

    Cheney certainly seems to be able to explain what's going on in some of us who have had bad infections. What does everyone else think about this?

    happy xmas!

    karen
    [This Message was Edited on 12/10/2006]
  12. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    Something else I saw this morning is making me wonder about how much role the liver has in our misery. I know it is most of mine. My hypoglycemia, BTW, is from eating alot of saturated fat this past week while I was trying to eat some different foods. My liver just can't take it. I guess I'll make a post about it later today, but I was blaming the nocturnal hypoglycemia on the mitochondria supplements, like ribose, which can aggravate it but this was much worse.

    Anyway, if RNase-L disrupts protein synthesis and the liver hosts most of the protein synthesis going on in the body, then it is not going to function well. And it does a little of everything. I only have cfs, no fm or pain, but this made me think of the fibro patients and there pain and livers:

    "The bile, which is stored in the gallbladder in a more concentrated form, is of extreme importance in all areas of the body. The gallbladder actually draws the bile into itself from the liver duct. Many back problems in fact are the direct result of inadequate bile flow. The synovial fluid around all joints will decrease if bile flow is low, sometimes causing terrible pain. Many people will take cortisone injections for relief believing it, mistakenly, to be arthritis or some other inflammatory disease. The cure of course comes with liver cleansing.

    Another area of the body that can suffer from lack of bile are the sinuses. This soothing lubricant ( bile ) keeps mucus membranes moist, otherwise they become dry and inflamed. Most allergy conditions can be traced to liver congestion. Avoiding foods that create a reaction bring relief, but will not cure the allergy. Allergies and sinus conditions will often disappear after the liver has been cleansed.

    Also, the body begins to suffer the effects of poor assimilation of fat-soluble nutrients, which may play a role in the development of eczema, psoriasis, dry skin, falling hair, tendonitis, night blindness, accumulations of calcium in tissues, and sometimes prostate enlargement in men. Hemorrhoids due to blockage of the portal vein draining the liver are often the result of this congestion."

    And don't assume you have a well functioning liver because your liver function tests were normal. I was going to a "liver specialist" for a year and a half and I kept asking him if he thought mine was bad despite normal enzyme levels and such and he kept telling me "your liver is fine". Well, he was wrong. I know because I can tell from eating certain foods and taking certain drugs and supplements that my liver is not well.

    So what am I doing about it today? I'm taking Oregon Grape, milk thistle, dandelion and I'm going to eat only vegetables and rice and beans for the next few days.
    And I have a couple of liver support pills that I'm going to take. The doctor can't help you with "liver congestion" which is only treatable with diet and supplements. So pressing for a test that shows some malfunction is pointless, you can tell by your symptoms if your liver is "broken". And trying to treat a broken liver with drugs is like taking a hammer to a broken leg. The liver is only going to get hammered with stress if you put more drugs into it. This would also create a horrible vicious circle for people with pain and liver problems. The use of strong drugs will hurt the liver and keep it down. I would take some liver protecting herbs if I had to take alot of drugs. And definitely a strict, liver-friendly-food only diet. Well, this is pretty much what I have to do, anyway.

    happy xmas!

    karen
  13. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    1991 was a long time ago. It is my hope that elaborations upon this theory or competing theories have been proposed during that time.

    It is quite possible that no advancement has been made in the past 15 years, but accepting this particular explanation without any peer review whatsoever is not something that I am prepared to do.

    I do believe that I feel somewhat better when I support my own liver, however.
  14. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    I just picked this article because I refer to it all the time. But there are alot more recent ones, just google"rnase-l protein synthesis chronic fatigue" and they'll come up. There's one here in an email bulletin from immunesupport from 11-01-2002. It talks about Ampligen and one of its uses is the downregulation of this overactive RNase-L.

    I'm just angry about the whole thing, the studies HAVE been done but since there are not drugs for these things, they don't come up. I can only find them now after years of searching because I've honed my searching skills regarding health advice. In the beginning I was searching "treatment for cfs" and getting every nut job's idea of what to do. I put together my own list of things that will downregulate RNase-L, like beta glucan, transfer factor, glutathione, IP6, etc.

    I think soon I'll do a post about the liver, it's not obvious when it's not functioning correctly and it can be a real source of misery. I learned the hard way. I've just figured out today that my nocturnal hypoglycemia is because I cheated too much this week ('cause I was feeling so darn good, for a change!) and ate a bit of saturated fat every day which my liver just cannot tolerate.

    Thanks for the hypoglycemic post, BTW; it's making me think more cfs people have damaged livers and aren't aware of it.

    happy xmas!

    karen
  15. cherylsue

    cherylsue Member

    I may be wrong, but doesn't Dr. Cheney have a new theory regarding CFS - that is a form of cardiomyopathy? I don't know if he still touts the RNaseL theory. I think Forebearance purchased his latest DVD. She might have some thoughts on this.

    CherylSue