Only band 41 ++ on Igenex WB. Can it still be Lyme?

Discussion in 'Lyme Disease Archives' started by KimDC, Feb 23, 2009.

  1. KimDC

    KimDC New Member

    I've been sick for 8 years and became sick 2 weeks after returning from a vacation in a cabin in upstate N.Y. Textbook Lyme symptoms at that time, except for rash. At that time, Lyme antibodies were negative. I recently had the Lyme panel done at Igenex and only had one ++ band, 41, on IGG. 41 on IGM was indeterminate. All antibodies were negative. PCR was negative as well.

    Could this still be Lyme? Any thoughts on what I should do next? My PCP will give oral abx, but I'd like to be sure of what I really have before treating it.

    Thanks for your suggestions!!!!
  2. Nanie46

    Nanie46 Moderator

    Hi,

    Lyme is a clinical diagnosis, based on history and symptoms, and it can be supported by labwork.

    Dr B. says that a diagnosis of lyme cannot be based solely on a lab test, nor can it be excluded based on just a lab test.

    Therefore, the answer to your question is yes, it can still be lyme.

    Some great resources:

    http://www.betterhealthguy.com/images/stories/PDF/LYMDXRX2008-October.pdf(good symptom checklist)


    http://www.lymepa.org/Basics2007v1.2Rev.pdf(great symptom checklist)


    http://www.angelfire.com/biz/romarkaraoke/whento.htm(fantastic essay)


    http://www.ilads.org/files/ILADS_Guidelines.pdf



    Keep in mind that your PCP will not really know how to properly treat lyme. You will only get a short term antibiotic. My LLMD started me on 3 different ones, and told me I would probably improve slowly over about 6 months.

    Treatment is symptom based...it isn't cut off if I still have symptoms, like a non-LLMD would do...and then tell you that your problem can't be lyme since you didn't get better in 4 weeks.

    I would find a LLMD and let him decide if you have lyme or not, based on all your information, not just a lab test. Then if you have lyme, you will get proper treatment. It's a waste of time and money to go to a non-LLMD who doesn't really have a clue about lyme, not to mention all the possible co-infections.

    Your history and symptoms are very suspicious. I think it would be worth your effort to see a good LLMD. You just may recover from years of illness.

    Hope you get answers, and your health back. Good luck!


    [This Message was Edited on 02/25/2009]
    [This Message was Edited on 02/25/2009]
    [This Message was Edited on 02/25/2009]
    [This Message was Edited on 02/25/2009]
  3. KimDC

    KimDC New Member

    Thank you for your response, Nanie46! Your advice and links are very helpful. There's a LLMD about 4 hours from me, so I'll give him a call.
  4. munch1958

    munch1958 Member

    If you haven't been sleeping around .... and your teeth are in good shape .... and you have symptoms of CFS and FM then suspect Lyme. Here are the reasons:

    The following two reports by Allen Steere and Yale state that if a person has band 41 (or flagellin), Lyme symptoms, and they do not have severe periodontal disease or syphilis, they have Lyme borreliosis:

    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=423723&blobtype=pdf

    1) Allen Steere in 1986, when he developed the first CDC Method to diagnose Lyme, recommended: ” Perform serial Western Blots to look for changing and expanding IgM and IgG antibodies,” since Lyme is a borrelisis, a relapsing fever, and the changing antibodies is a reflection of the varying antigens- and that, THIS CHANGING phenomenon means β€œthe spirochete remains alive throughout the illness.”

    In that full text report, Steere said one can distinguish between Lyme and syphilis, when one only sees band 41 (anti-flagellar antibody) in a person complaining of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or Fibromyalgia.

    2) Yale and CT Agricultural experiment Station- the full pdf:

    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=8788993

    Use of recombinant antigens of Borrelia burgdorferi in serologic tests for diagnosis of lyme borreliosis.

    Magnarelli LA, Fikrig E, Padula SJ, Anderson JF, Flavell RA.

    Department of Entomology, Connecticut Agricultural Experiment Station, New Haven 06504, USA.

    Recombinant antigens of outer surface proteins (Osps) OspA, OspB, OspC, OspE, and OspF of Borrelia burgdorferi sensu stricto and of p41-G, an antigenic region of flagellin of this spirochete, were tested with human sera in class-specific and polyvalent enzyme-linked immunosorbent assays (ELISAs). In analyses for immunoglobulin M (IgM) antibodies, 18 (85.7%) of 21 serum samples from persons who had been diagnosed as having Lyme borreliosis on the basis of the presence of erythema migrans reacted positively in ELISAs with one or more Osp antigens or the p41-G antigen. Eleven serum samples contained antibodies to OspC antigen, and of these, six also reacted to the p41-G antigen and to one or more of the other recombinant antigens. The remaining five serum samples reacted solely to OspC (n = 4) or to OspC plus OspA and OspE without reactivity to p41-G (n = 1). In analyses for IgG antibodies, seropositivity was comparable to that of IgM analyses and was marked by predominant reactivity to p41-G, OspC, and OspF. Similarly, all 21 serum samples were positive in polyvalent and class-specific ELISAs with whole-cell B. burgdorferi. Minor cross-reactivity was noted when sera from persons who had syphilis, periodontitis or other oral infections, or rheumatoid arthritis were tested with OspC, OspE, OspF, and p41-G. With relatively high degrees of specificity, ELISAs with recombinant antigens, particularly OspC and p41-G, can help to confirm B. burgdorferi infections.
    PMID: 8788993 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    See Dr Kent Holtorf's page on Lyme:
    http://www.hormoneandlongevitycenter.com/lymedisease/
  5. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Hey, Kim, I had only that band 41 show up positive on my Lyme test, also. Mine was a Western Blot done through LabCorp. But then I had a CD57 test done and the result was 64. So I am taking colloidal silver for the heck of it and getting quite a reaction.

    Forebearance
  6. elliespad

    elliespad Member

    I am unable to open the links you provided. It says Temporarily Unavailable. Haven't been able to open in for several days now. I am really interested to read these and print them out for my doctor. My Band 41 was positive and I think one or two other bands were IND. If you're able to print/post these I would really appreciate it.
  7. munch1958

    munch1958 Member

    I just did this and got both of the articles and Dr Holtorf's website. It's not a link that you can click on. Some people know how to insert a direct link here but I'm not one of them.

    All I did was highlight the text, copy it, and paste it into my browser. I went right to the info I posted. Possibly your firewall isn't letting you do this maybe?
  8. elliespad

    elliespad Member

    Got it. Was doing Copy & Paste but wouldn't allow it for some reason, but today it is, so off I go to read. Thanks.
  9. KimDC

    KimDC New Member

    I never expected such a detailed, helpful response to my question. Thank you so much!!! I'll look up these articles right away. My ID MD is not an LLMD and I may have to bite the bullet financially and see an LLMD. I really have more symptoms of Babeosis (nausea, vomiting, drenching night sweats) than of Lyme. Of course, I could have both.

    How were you diagnosed and what treatment(s) have you undergone?
  10. munch1958

    munch1958 Member

    I put a running history of my treatment over the past 2.5 years in my profile. It covers just about every test I've had, my results, plus many other things that I've tried. There's even the story of how I got diagnosed.

    I'm still doing shots of Methylcobalamin every day. This has eliminated fatigue completely. When I stop them the fatigue comes back as does the severe constipation. I am still nebulizing gluatione 3X per week which has gotten rid of my long standing MCS. About 2.5 years into treatment, my "Fibro" pain went away. I'm now on IM Claforan to get rid of a few remaining neuro symptoms and sarcoidosis.
  11. m1she11e

    m1she11e New Member

    Munch,

    I checked out your profile. That is alot of stuff. You must spend over a thousand dollars a month on all that. I am truly glad you are seeing results but I believe there must be a way for the many that simply cannot afford that kind of a protocol. Of course I would beg, steal and borrow to get well but there is no where else to beg, steal and borrow from for many of us.

    Hopfully there are less expensive solutions. I would hate to think that at the end of all this, when I meet the big guy and ask why I didnt get well he doesnt tell me "sorry, you just didnt have enough money..."

    I appreciate all the info though. I have read about most of those things and tried some. I just never imagined being able to put them all together at once! WOW! Lucky you!
  12. ktp812

    ktp812 New Member

    I only had 41+++ on my WB also along with a few IND. At the time my first doctor decided it couldn't be Lyme because of that but a month later attended a Lyme conference.

    At my next appt. he said that because of the information he got at the conference and my clinical symptoms he was going to aggressively treat me for Lyme.

    I think it is natural to have doubts when we don't come up with conclusive tests. I still wonder myself if I have Lyme or not...

  13. Nanie46

    Nanie46 Moderator

    Hi,

    I don't remember if you ever posted which IND bands you had....could you list them?

    My LLMD says that an IND result on a species specific band is like a fingerprint...doesn't matter how "dark" the fingerprint is, it's still the same fingerprint....in other words it's still positive.